Dodge doesnt dodge

[Darkstar412 155]

Can we get this right click renamed to dash or leap or something other than dodge because it doesnt dodge, and would clear up a lot of confusion that its just a gap closer/creator. 

[veeshan 1,701]

i think they should give you half a second of immunity or like 50% dmg reduction (Glancing blows)

Edited January 12 by veeshan

[Paedrig 7]

You're looking at it the wrong way, I'd bet it would work as intended if the animations lined up with the combat effects.

I was really impressed with my Paladin being able to block, but its damn near impossible to time properly.

[nihilsupernum 543]

1 hour ago, Paedrig said:

You're looking at it the wrong way, I'd bet it would work as intended if the animations lined up with the combat effects.

I was really impressed with my Paladin being able to block, but its damn near impossible to time properly.

I think some amount of invuln would be better. The way it currently works, you can't use movement to react to animations:
 

Pretty much all ranged skills work like this.

[Paedrig 7]

I'm still praying this isn't working as intended. I won't pretend to remember the specifics of the programming they talked about back in the KS vids, but I don't think that should be happening. Its got to be similar to the parry reaction timing. Pretty sure it was one of your vids that convinced me I didn't need to suspect my network.

[veeshan 1,701]

42 minutes ago, nihilsupernum said:

I think some amount of invuln would be better. The way it currently works, you can't use movement to react to animations:
 

Pretty much all ranged skills work like this.

either half a second of invun or like a 1second 50% dmg reduction buff (Could then add minors that do other bonuses when you dodge like extra 50 AP after dodging or next attack does 50% bonus dmg, or heals for 2% hp when you dodge)

[Tofyzer 421]

Yes, they need to tweak damage calculation. 

[yianni 1,685]

yup ive posted on this as well, its just a gap closer right now, or something to help you get away

[Soulreaver 2,215]

15 hours ago, nihilsupernum said:

Pretty much all ranged skills work like this.

Melee does too

Hit Location/Timing - YouTube

Dodge to avoid damage -use- to be a thing, it's just not anymore.  Now it's just a gap maker/closer.  Which doesn't make sense.

 

[nihilsupernum 543]

2 minutes ago, Soulreaver said:

Melee does too

Hit Location/Timing - YouTube

Dodge to avoid damage -use- to be a thing, it's just not anymore.  Now it's just a gap maker/closer.  Which doesn't make sense.

 

Yeah. This is so frustrating. The animations are practically screaming at you: "Hey! Big damage in 1s. Dodge now!" .. and then you dodge and you take damage anyway.

 

[Soulreaver 2,215]

The ability to outplay your opponent through reading what they do is gone.  It's just facetank and really no real mechanics involved.

 

[DocHollidaze 1,266]

16 hours ago, nihilsupernum said:

I think some amount of invuln would be better. The way it currently works, you can't use movement to react to animations:

Pretty much all ranged skills work like this.

Pretty sure this has been brought up before. Your video Nihil is an excellent representation of how the system works. Kudos

 

I think a lot of people are under the impression that Crowfall is a skill-based PvP game. I don't believe that is the case. It is more of a Build-based PvP game.

IMHO, there are many aspects of how PvP works in CF from a mechanical and philosophical standpoint where individual skill plays no significant factor in the outcome of engagements.

[nihilsupernum 543]

1 hour ago, DocHollidaze said:

Pretty sure this has been brought up before. Your video Nihil is an excellent representation of how the system works. Kudos

 

I think a lot of people are under the impression that Crowfall is a skill-based PvP game. I don't believe that is the case. It is more of a Build-based PvP game.

IMHO, there are many aspects of how PvP works in CF from a mechanical and philosophical standpoint where individual skill plays no significant factor in the outcome of engagements.

 

So you're saying "skill" (prediction, reaction, aim, etc.) is not supposed to matter in determining fight outcomes. Abilities are not supposed to be dodged. Fights are decided by builds/composition (and teamwork depending on # of players).

If this is true, the game is failing to communicate it to the player. Many animations suggest that there is an action the player could take to mitigate or avoid the effects. Example videos linked in this thread. Probably the most obvious one is @Soulreaver's clip of attempting to dodge after their opponent jumps into the air and slams back down, triggering an aoe around them. Even though they escape the apparent hit radius in time, they still take damage.
The game's 3rd-person action style with a crosshair rather than click or tab targeting also suggests that it takes its combat cues from FPS style gameplay rather than slower more "build-based" old style MMOs.

This is just my opinion, but I think it's a bad design choice because it results in fights that are won or lost based on prior decisions a la Rock-Paper-Scissors without much hope to change the outcome in real time. Given equal teamwork, if their comp beats your comp, they win. If your comp beats theirs, you win.

There's no excitement of reading a player's actions and correctly predicting what they're about to do, then reacting to it. There's no excitement in noticing an animation and correctly moving to avoid its effects.

I guess I just don't see why a player is supposed to value a "build-based" victory. When I win a "skill-based" game, I feel pretty good - especially if odds were against me at the start. I used my wit and my reaction to overcome a challenge. When I win a "build-based" game. I feel nothing. The outcome was preordained.

Edited January 13 by nihilsupernum

[DocHollidaze 1,266]

41 minutes ago, nihilsupernum said:

 

So you're saying ...

 

I'm just stating my perception of how the game works from my point of view.

ACE may think they've created a skill-based PvP game, but I would beg to differ.

[BarriaKarl 2,108]

Man, fighting fessors with that sound bug was awful. Most attacks "missed" you and all you saw was your hp bar disappearing.

[miraluna 2,802]

You can't dodge hitscan abilities, so the name is definitely misleading.

It should be called... "Move It!" 

 

[Jah 7,972]

If you look up the word "Dodge" in the dictionary you will find that some of the definitions are perfectly applicable to what the skill does.

You can't dodge a hitscan power after it has been cast, but you can certainly dodge through crowds, dodge away from enemies before they get the chance to attack you, etc.

Edited January 13 by Jah

[nihilsupernum 543]

13 minutes ago, Jah said:

If you look up the word "Dodge" in the dictionary you will find that some of the definitions are perfectly applicable to what the skill does.

You can't dodge a a hitscan power after it has been cast, but you can certainly dodge through crowds, dodge away from enemies before they get the chance to attack you, etc.

While I don't like that you can't dodge hitscan powers, there's also the matter of timed AoE abilities that look like they hit on a delay and indicate that the player might want to move out of range, but then hit the player anyway even if they do.

I'm not sure if the underlying cause is the same, but to me it indicates something is not working right under the hood of the combat system.

 

If the combat system really is meant to work this way, IMO the animations need to reflect that. Instead of looking like "you could possibly avoid this if you move", they should instead indicate "you've been hit by this and you will take damage in 1 second".

Edited January 13 by nihilsupernum

[Jah 7,972]

5 minutes ago, nihilsupernum said:

If the combat system really is meant to work this way, IMO the animations need to reflect that. Instead of looking like "you could possibly avoid this if you move", they should instead indicate "you've been hit by this and you will take damage in 1 second".

Yep, the hitscan powers should probably look like homing missiles so they more accurately represent how they work.

I think it is totally reasonable to criticize hitscan powers, I just disagree with those who think the word "dodge" is misused on the dodge power. That requires an overly narrow view of what the word means.

[Jah 7,972]

2 hours ago, DocHollidaze said:

ACE may think they've created a skill-based PvP game, but I would beg to differ.

It sounds like you have a very narrow definition of what "skill" means. Aiming skill and twitch reaction skills aren't as important in Crowfall as in some other games, but there is no question that various kinds of "skill" play a large role in the outcomes of Crowfall fights, sieges, and campaigns.

Edited January 13 by Jah