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17 minutes ago, Jah said:

Just as saying Crowfall is not a "skill-based" pvp game requires a ridiculously narrow definition of what the word "skill" means.

 

By 'skill' in this context, I mean:

  • Prediction - learning your opponents' patterns and correctly guessing what they are about to do. This helps you with..
  • Reaction - taking action in response to your opponent's animations, ideally to completely nullify their attacks or interrupt them with your own.
  • Aim - For hitscan: simply sticking the reticle on target. For projectiles: 'leading' targets by compensating for projectile speed, relative velocity, predicted target movement, latency, etc.

Maybe 'mechanical skill' might be a better term, but that's not all of it.

For this thread, I think reaction is the key element of skill that is missing. The animations suggest that it's a thing, but it isn't.

Edited by nihilsupernum
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33 minutes ago, nihilsupernum said:

 

By 'skill' in this context, I mean:

  • Prediction - learning your opponents' patterns and correctly guessing what they are about to do. This helps you with..
  • Reaction - taking action in response to your opponent's animations, ideally to completely nullify their attacks or interrupt them with your own.
  • Aim - For hitscan: simply sticking the reticle on target. For projectiles: 'leading' targets by compensating for projectile speed, relative velocity, predicted target movement, latency, etc.

Maybe 'mechanical skill' might be a better term, but that's not all of it.

For this thread, I think reaction is the key element of skill that is missing. The animations suggest that it's a thing, but it isn't.

I'm really just reacting to the hyperbole. I think it is reasonable to be frustrated with Crowfall's use of hitscan powers, but to claim that the fights are decided before they begin, or that it's not a "skill-based" game, is exaggeration to the point of nonsense.

Edited by Jah

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3 hours ago, Jah said:

It sounds like you have a very narrow definition of what "skill" means. Aiming skill and twitch reaction skills aren't as important in Crowfall as in some other games, but there is no question that various kinds of "skill" play a large role in the outcomes of Crowfall fights, sieges, and campaigns.

We're talking about dodging in the PvP combat aspect of CF Jah. 

Yes, I know there other aspects of skill in CF, like leadership or communication skills, which are important to success. 

 

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3 hours ago, Jah said:

I'm really just reacting to the hyperbole. I think it is reasonable to be frustrated with Crowfall's use of hitscan powers, but to claim that the fights are decided before they begin, or that it's not a "skill-based" game, is exaggeration to the point of nonsense.

 

That fact that I have been able to kill players, being such the terrible player that I am, suggests otherwise. That is a fundamental component to my theory in fact. lol

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1 hour ago, DocHollidaze said:

We're talking about dodging in the PvP combat aspect of CF Jah. 

Yes, I know there other aspects of skill in CF, like leadership or communication skills, which are important to success. 

Sure, but dodging is a very effective ability in combat. You can't dodge a hitscan unless you dodge before the hitscan is even cast, and complaints about that are reasonable, but it doesn't mean you can't use dodge to avoid damage in Crowfall. I use dodge all the time to, um, dodge out of sticky situations.

I guess I'm just not a fan of exaggeration as a way to make a point. We can complain about hitscans without saying dodge isn't even a dodge, or claiming crowfall isn't skill-based.

Edited by Jah

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@Jah That's fair. I didn't mean to suggest there was *no* skill in it, merely that there are many situations in Crowfall where the action combat (movement, dodges, animations, etc.) doesn't deliver on its promise of effective counterplay, and this leads to unwinnable matchups where effectively build & class trump "skill" every time, since "skill" is doing next-to-no work in the fight.

Eg. See the last 2 minutes of this video: Mac's opponent's desperately try and CC him and keep him back, but he just face-tanks it and retaliates again and again and again and again. They try and outlast him and whittle his health down, but they can barely make a dent. The sustain is too good. The stormcaller ults, but he just stands in it unphased, multiple times. Could these two have played better? Yeah, probably. Would it have changed the outcome? Not in the slightest.
 

Edited by nihilsupernum
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1 hour ago, Jah said:

I guess I'm just not a fan of exaggeration as a way to make a point. We can complain about hitscans without saying dodge isn't even a dodge, or claiming crowfall isn't skill-based.

 

I've said almost the exact same thing in a thread months ago, and a member of ACE team liked my comment. So I don't feel off base whatsoever.

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