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bairloch

On the subject of open PVP

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After rereading everything, because it appeared I missed something, I realized that you've come to the conclusion that fighting in this game will be unavoidable at times but are hoping not at all times. I don't suspect this will be the case, and that brings me back to the theory of NPC hired hands. I know in Archeage you had caravans with trade packs you could move across the world for money and resources. I do agree that we need something different, and though there is the possibility of luck being on your side, I want the game to be more skill mashed through character management and customization than point and click or macro-winning. I don't disagree that there should a few things in place to prevent grieving a player, but it is open world PVP so it'll be interesting to see where it goes.

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But then there's always the "tryhards" who look for the most scumbag exploits possible, and keep using them until they're fixed. 

 

gosh...i hope so...

 

creativity and all...plus the best part...

 

SURPRISE!!

 

can't get that from mobs, imo

 

Excelsior!

 

 


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let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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Instakills are bad. That's why games have the "attack first to survive" mantra. Fights should last longer. Players in pvp and pve should leave enough time to make mistakes and gain back or lose ground.

 

--

 

Why do people want to reduce PvP down to one tiny meaningless piece? Open-World PvP in and of itself is meaningless. What was meaningful with Shadowbane was mines, farming gold, collecting runes... the fight to get these things to increase your city's tree rank forced people to gain friends and enemies. And THAT eventually led to sieges/wars.

 

PvPer's and PvE'rs alike need to discover a common "struggle" that adequately includes both play-types in a way that makes sense. NPC security levels? The Gods power decreases the further you leave town? There must always be downtime. Time where you aren't looking over your shoulder. We need a meaningful struggle within the game that is required to overcome in order to progress. They probably already have it.

 

Lastly it really doesn't make any sense for people to always be fighting for pretty much no reason...just for the sake of PvP. THAT is a shallow game and we don't need another one of those.

 There is a difference between having a pvp centric universe and merely adding that you can kill someone.

 

Tera- you spawn nearby, no one cares if you die, there's no loss. Server goes from Order>chaos because chaos has no price.

 

HardcoreXXXXCOREHARDXXXCORE- You die your dead. done, finito. yea you can kill anyone, but anyone can kill you. people band together because the lone guy gets killed. Death has a price, so even greifers have to weigh cost-benifit. realm goes from Chaos>order yea, opening day could be a gloriously fun mess (Would you like some greusome mass murder and mosh pitting with your game release?) and from there we calm down because hey, this is my char's life we're talking about. even the people who want to pk for the lols will have to bann together and get smarter. But in a system like that, I believe your safe from reasonable killings, now if your idea of gaming is afk farming, or hitting autorun and walking away or sitting in the middle of the field unarmed then hey, you can be that dead guy

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Unsurprisingly, considering Crowfall's pedigree, I've already seen a lot of talk about PvP. I'm a guy that doesn't want to be the baddest mutha on the server. I'm the kind of guy that wants to do his part for his guild, contribute however, and know that it's appreciated. That's all.

So when a guy like me sees a lot of calls for open-world, non-consensual PvP, I have a few concerns. If I'm not pushing to be the biggest and the strongest, will there be a place for me in an open-world, non-consensual PvP game? I'd like to think I could still contribute - crafting, exploring, scouting, knowledge - but if every time I leave the guild hall I get ganked, can I contribute?

So my suggestion is, make the combat as realistic as possible. By that, I mean no health bars, no healing potions or magic, no trading blows for five minutes. I'm talking a flurry of action, a lot of luck and a lot of skill, and a body on the ground bleeding moments later.

A system where the guy who doesn't have all the best gear still has a realistic chance of defending himself if he's done his homework. A system where the aggressor really has to want the other guy dead, because he's truly risking his own life by starting something.

That would be something truly different.

 

Any combat system that uses "a lot of luck" to decide the outcome of PvP is not a system I want to play under.


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So... real life?

 

I live in real life 24/7. I don't play games because I want it to be as close to "real life" as possible. I play because I enjoy competing against other humans to test my (or my guild's) skills against our opponents. Watering down the skill-requirement by allowing luck to play a significant hand in determining the outcome of pvp doesn't reward the best player(s), it rewards those that happen to get the right flip of the coin at the right time. That's not fun, that's frustrating. Losing to an opponent you are more talented/skilled than simply because they got lucky and strung a few critical strikes (another abhorrent mechanic) together.

 

Including luck as a large part of the equation will only help the unskilled masses and screw the talented elite.

Edited by drenath-x-

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So... real life?

 luck can be a factor...but rarely

 

human history has taught us beyond doubt that the prepared and well trained with proper equipment wins most of the time...hence ...training...

 

rome vs whomever

 

or baseball batting averages...

 

whatever works for you

 

but i digress...

 

Excelsior!


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let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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I'm huge advocate of open pvp, but i don't think that we (pvp players) should mock pve crowd as it most of the seems to be. There's always roles that need to be filled by those who do not want to pvp. Granted, they're in risk of getting engaged in combat if it's going to be open pvp, but it is their guilds job to protect them as much as possible and if crafting/economics/politics and such are going to be big part of the game (i'm speculating here of course) we'll need the pve crowd very very much. Some one dedicated on controlling the economy or resources  can make jsut as big impact as some one fighting on the battle field. Maybe even bigger impact in some cases..

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 luck can be a factor...but rarely

 

If you're thinking I want it more than rarely, you're reading to much into my post.

 

And if you don't think fighting in real life, even among professionals, doesn't involve luck, you're kidding yourself.

 

That guy missed, and now you have a chance to counter, you just got lucky. Did you move particularly cleverly? No. He just guessed wrong and missed. Now I get to take advantage. Lucky you.

Edited by bairloch

I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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I live in real life 24/7. I don't play games because I want it to be as close to "real life" as possible. I play because I enjoy competing against other humans to test my (or my guild's) skills against our opponents. Watering down the skill-requirement by allowing luck to play a significant hand in determining the outcome of pvp doesn't reward the best player(s), it rewards those that happen to get the right flip of the coin at the right time. That's not fun, that's frustrating. Losing to an opponent you are more talented/skilled than simply because they got lucky and strung a few critical strikes (another abhorrent mechanic) together.

 

Including luck as a large part of the equation will only help the unskilled masses and screw the talented elite.

 

Crits are stupid, procs are stupid, any RNG are stupid.

 

I can't tell you how many duels I've fought where we both had proc weapons and I'd never proc and the other bastard would like 4 times in a row.  


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"Agelmar is King of the Hypocrites and Ruler of the Kingdom of Hypocrytia"

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And that's why I outlined the fact that luck is still a factor in RNG-less combat.

The neat thing about building a new game is you aren't required to rehash the same old crap that has been done in the past. I also think you missed agelmar's point. Procs (Programmed Random OCcurrences) are not, in his view, a fun mechanic and are in the same vein as RNGs, Crits, etc... They are also not a required component of MMO combat.

 

Hit rolls and such are about as far as I'd go in terms of condoning any sort of combat modifier that isn't directly under player control. Even then, the player has a reasonable amount of influence on that sort of thing as he can determine how to spec his character to suit the desired playstyle.


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If you're thinking I want it more than rarely, you're reading to much into my post.

 

And if you don't think fighting in real life, even among professionals, doesn't involve luck, you're kidding yourself.

 

That guy missed, and now you have a chance to counter, you just got lucky. Did you move particularly cleverly? No. He just guessed wrong and missed. Now I get to take advantage. Lucky you.

 

ok, as long as we are both talking about rare...it's all good

 

one thing...in your little tale of an example....the guy missed

 

doesn't make YOU lucky...means he stinks

 

just trying to demonstrate my definitions of terms for better communications....

 

Excelsior!


FIQw0eP.png

let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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The neat thing about building a new game is you aren't required to rehash the same old crap that has been done in the past. I also think you missed agelmar's point. Procs (Programmed Random OCcurrences) are not, in his view, a fun mechanic and are in the same vein as RNGs, Crits, etc... They are also not a required component of MMO combat.

 

Hit rolls and such are about as far as I'd go in terms of condoning any sort of combat modifier that isn't directly under player control. Even then, the player has a reasonable amount of influence on that sort of thing as he can determine how to spec his character to suit the desired playstyle.

 

Shadowbane had hit roll mechanics.  You had defense and attack rating stats which you could modify through stats, gear, stances, and weapon powers.  It was actually pretty deep and the stances played a huge roll (at least for the class I mostly played)

 

There has to be some way to determine a hit or not outside of a twitch FPS/3PS type of combat.


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"Agelmar is King of the Hypocrites and Ruler of the Kingdom of Hypocrytia"

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I didn't miss his point. His point wasn't directed at me. Was there a point where I advocated procs or crits? Nope.

 

Who do you think it was directed at? The guy he was agreeing with (me)? Who was your comment, the one I quote in this post, directed towards?

 

I can't tell you how many duels I've fought where we both had proc weapons and I'd never proc and the other bastard would like 4 times in a row.  

 

Very next post:

 

And that's why I outlined the fact that luck is still a factor in RNG-less combat.

 

Your words indicate that you're drawing some causal link between two identical weapons proc'ing more for one person than another (pure luck, no player control whatsoever) and luck being a factor in non-RNG combat. My point is that that's a pointless statement because none of this has been programmed yet, thus the devs have the freedom to entirely remove luck from the equations they create for their own version of MMO combat if they so choose. It's also nonsensical because there is no causal link between agelmar's comment and your "that's why" statement.

 

The only reason luck plays a roll in any video game is because the developers made a conscious decision to include it in the game mechanics for combat. There is no entropy in MMO server/client code like in real life. Unless a developer specifically codes for it, there is no randomness to combat in a video game. Even your example of a player missing his shot and giving you a chance to counter, is in no way "luck," it is a lack of skill shown by your opponent that you can potentially exploit.

 

I'll say it again, the only purpose served by weighting any sort of luck or randomness in MMO pvp is to reward inferior players and screw over the skilled elite. It makes those inferior pvp'ers feel like they've got some degree of hope when facing a superior opponent because they can just cross their fingers and see what happens while it frustrates the hell out of highly-skilled player(s) that lose fights as a result of bad luck.


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Shadowbane had hit roll mechanics.

 

No poorly made socks bro? That's why I brought them up. While not truly based on luck--for the reasons we both mentioned--I have a feeling that's about as close as anyone playing CF is going to get to relying on luck in PvP.


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No **** bro? That's why I brought them up. While not truly based on luck--for the reasons we both mentioned--I have a feeling that's about as close as anyone playing CF is going to get to relying on luck in PvP.

 

Can we hug now?  I want to hug.


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"Agelmar is King of the Hypocrites and Ruler of the Kingdom of Hypocrytia"

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