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Possible reward for a Skull Vendor: Healing potions for PvP, bandages which are not lost in the event of death, buff food for PvP, instead of a PvP rank - special skins for capes, helmets, armor.

How could one prevent or reduce exploids? Players only lose one skull per hour, per 2 hours, per 4 hours. Or with RNG - after the first kill there is only a 50% chance of a skull, after the 2nd only 25% chance, etc.

Edited by Famelor
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8 minutes ago, Jah said:

Fights at POIs are not always so simple. What if there are 3 guilds at the POI, but none owns the POI? What if 1 guild owns the POI, 1 guild is helping them, and another guild is attacking?

I don't understand your point of a fight happening around/over a POI? Why does it matter? Players would get skulls or whatever PVP rewards be it open field or on top of a POI. A POI could factor into values, but would just be another layer.

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Open world pvp is just not as simple to deal with as matchmaking battlegrounds, faction pvp, etc. Determining who is on which side in a given fight is not easy for a person, let alone a computer-based heuristic.

This is a group/guild/alliance/faction based game, I assume a good number running around engaging in large fights are going to be on the same team. 

Unless you envision 300 random players fighting one another?

If a player dies, anyone that caused them harm is an enemy, anyone that helped them is a friend, those that did neither don't matter. Computers surely can track such things and they do in other games.

https://albiononline.com/en/killboard

https://albiononline.com/en/killboard/battles/186146349

https://albiononline.com/en/killboard/kill/186162858

 


 

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21 minutes ago, APE said:

I don't understand your point of a fight happening around/over a POI? Why does it matter? Players would get skulls or whatever PVP rewards be it open field or on top of a POI. A POI could factor into values, but would just be another layer.

It was an example of a fight with more than two sides to illustrate the difficulty of determining who is attacking and who is defending. People will often do both in the same fight, intentionally or not. Sorry if I confused you by mentioning a POI in the scenario.

21 minutes ago, APE said:

Unless you envision 300 random players fighting one another?

Huh? I don't get the sense that you are discussing this in good faith. I guess it bothered you when I said it's not easy to design a system like this. Apologies.

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2 hours ago, Jah said:

Reality.

It is hard to imagine any scenario where you can get legitimate kills faster in the open world than you can farming alts or trading kills.

Then you haven't played enough games that have systems in place to counter and not reward this behavior. Your lack of imagination is just that.

I gave several examples of mechanics I've seen in use in different games that have avoided alt farming being an issue AFAIK.

You listed DF and SB, two games with less then stellar history and apparently known abusive behaviors not being stopped (maybe there was an attempt?).

Just to give one example for your imagination: Skulls of value only drop during siege, during the last 10 min, in or near a castle. How does one go about farming alts?

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All I have to go on is the suggestion made in this thread. I'm not manufacturing a worst case scenario, I'm talking about the obvious flaws of such a system that would need to be solved. Sure, some sort of clever mechanic may be possible. I don't know what that mechanic looks like, or how realistic it is as something extra to design before the launch of Crowfall.

If you want to just wave your hands and suggest ACE should come up with a great system that is not easily exploited, sure, sounds good to me. But my feedback for this thread is that it is not easy to design a system that rewards PvP as suggested by the OP without creating incentives for abusive play.

This is the suggestion forum, not needs to be in for launch forum. Although I don't see launch happening any day soon.

There are obvious flaws if devs do nothing to thwart abuse of such a system. It's a two part deal. Make a reward system and make counters to abusive play.

I don't believe it would be easy at all, but likely would be worth the effort for those that enjoy such things. Same as anything.

1 hour ago, Jah said:

It was an example of a fight with more than two sides to illustrate the difficulty of determining who is attacking and who is defending. People will often do both in the same fight, intentionally or not. Sorry if I confused you by mentioning a POI in the scenario.

I might have missed it but didn't see anything about "attackers" or "defenders" in this discussion.

Not sure what it has to do with the OP suggestion or any of my comments.

Why would attackers and defenders need to be identified in relation to this discussion of skulls being turned in for rewards or farming alts or anything else mentioned?

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Huh? I don't get the sense that you are discussing this in good faith. I guess it bothered you when I said it's not easy to design a system like this. Apologies.

You don't bother me but I don't understand your reasoning either. Why does a system have to be "easy" to create? 

A player should know who their friends, enemies, neutrals are. Considering this game has giant billboards above every player, not sure how this is confusing.

Again, unless there is a mass of unaffiliated players battling for some reason?

A computer should have an easier time identify player affiliation and who is doing what to who with the constant flow of data and tracking.

Albion is an example of a game that does this well enough.

It's very easy to shoot down any idea, harder to come up with ways it might work and make a game better overall. I'm all for anything that might help this game as it isn't likely to have a future with the random directions it seems to be going in.

Edited by APE

 


 

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7 minutes ago, APE said:

I don't believe it would be easy at all

So apparently we agree.

I didn't shoot down the idea, I pointed out that if kills generated resources it would create an incentive to farm alts, and that it wouldn't be easy to solve.

Not sure why that offended you so much. You're arguments seem to be pushing further and further into the ad hominem and ad absurdum.

Edited by Jah

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1 minute ago, Jah said:

So apparently we agree.

I didn't shoot down the idea, I pointed out that if kills generated resources it would create an incentive to farm alts, and that it wouldn't be easy to solve.

Not sure why that offended you so much. You're arguments seem to be pushing further and further into the ad hominem and ad absurdum.

Easy is relative. They could copy/paste other game model's into this one without even needing to reinvent the wheel.

Not sure why you believe I'm offended?

When I read comments of "I can't imagine" how something can work, I have no issue pointing out other imaginations have already been there done that where it isn't in imagination stage but actually in functioning products.

Individual PVP rewards and progression exist across multiple games and make complete sense for this one. There is nothing special about this game design that would make it difficult beyond dev resources/ability which is the same for any system.

 


 

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1 minute ago, APE said:

When I read comments of "I can't imagine" how something can work, I have no issue pointing out other imaginations have already been there done that where it isn't in imagination stage but actually in functioning products.

You have not pointed out how someone is going to get kills faster through normal open world pvp than through killing alts.

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5 minutes ago, Jah said:

You have not pointed out how someone is going to get kills faster through normal open world pvp than through killing alts.

I can't point anything out without knowing what rules are in place.

You haven't pointed out how someone would go about farming alts or why it would be worth it.

  • Is every skull worth the same?
  • Are there diminishing returns?
  • Was any thought put into designing such a system?
  • Did a dev's cat walk across the keyboard and create the system?

Ideally a proper system would value Quality > Quantity.

Real players should be worth more then alts and it should be more rewarding to actually play the game as intended then some how farm alts.

All of my suggestions value quality over quantity.

What's your stance? For or against a form of PVP rewards be it skulls or not?

 


 

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2 minutes ago, APE said:

What's your stance? For or against a form of PVP rewards be it skulls or not?

I'd love PVP rewards if ACE can figure out a way to do it that doesn't encourage people to farm alts or trade kills.

Looting seems like a pretty good PVP reward since it is a zero-sum game that doesn't encourage alt killing or kill trading at all.

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On 2/1/2021 at 8:51 AM, Famelor said:

Possible reward for a Skull Vendor: Healing potions for PvP, bandages which are not lost in the event of death, buff food for PvP, etc.

 

If you can't sell/can´t trade/can´t drop the rewards (you get for the skulls), it can't damage the economy ?

 

Or let's exchange the skulls for longer god buffs, 1 hour extra per skull?

Edited by Famelor
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On 1/31/2021 at 8:08 PM, APE said:

It's unfortunate that so many are adverse to Crowfall actually being what it was originally planned to be. A core game that could support multiple ways of playing it.

Too much of "I don't like that or I can't see how that could work." Designing a game around limited imaginations and what individuals don't like makes no sense. Especially when those suggestions have worked in similar successful game formats.

Ranks and PVP rewards??? No way that could work.

Gear Looting??? Madness.

Friendly Fire??? Nonsense, no game has ever worked with it.

PVE only servers in a PVP game??? Nah, no way that works.

Devs that listen to newbs has ever been a problem. Read what Richard Bartle had to say about this way back in 2004 (yes when WoW came out):

"Virtual worlds are being designed by know-nothing newbies, and there's not a damned thing anyone can do about it. I don't mean newbie designers, I mean newbie players - first timers. They're dictating design through a twisted "survival of the not-quite-fittest" form of natural selection that will lead to a long-term decay in quality, guaranteed. If you think some of today's offerings are garbage, just you wait…

Yeah, yeah, you want some justification for this assertion. Even though I'm in Soapbox mode, I can see that, so I will explain - only not just yet. First, I'm going to make four general points that I can string together to build my case. Bear with me on this…

The Newbie Stream

Here's a quote from Victorian author Charles Dickens:

Annual income £20/-/-, annual expenditure £19/19/6, result happiness.
Annual income £20/-/-, annual expenditure £20/-/6, result misery.
Annual income £0, annual expenditure £20,000,000, result There.com.

OK, so maybe he didn't actually write that last line.

What Dickens was actually saying is that, so long as you don't lose more than you gain, things are good. In our particular case, we're not talking olde English money, we're talking newbies, although ultimately, the two amount to one and the same thing.

Now I'm sorry to be the bringer of bad news, people, but here goes anyway: even for the most compelling of virtual worlds, players will eventually leave. Don't blame me, I didn't invent reality.

If oldbies leave, newbies are needed to replace them. The newbies must arrive at the same rate (or better) that the oldbies leave; otherwise, the population of the virtual world will decline until eventually no-one will be left to play it.

Point #1: Virtual worlds live or die by their ability to attract newbies

Newbie Preconceptions

Another quote, this time from the 1989 movie Field of Dreams:

If we build it, they will come.

Well, maybe if you're an Iowa corn farmer who hears voices inside your head telling you to construct a baseball stadium, but otherwise…

A virtual world can be fully functioning and free of bugs, but still be pretty well devoid of players. There are plenty of non-gameplay reasons why this could happen, but I'm going to focus on the most basic: lack of appeal. Some virtual worlds just aren't attractive to newbies. There are some wonderfully original, joyous virtual worlds out there. They're exquisitely balanced, rich in depth, abundant in breadth, alive with subtleties, and full of wise, interesting, fun people who engender an atmosphere of mystique and marvel without compare. Newbies would love these virtual worlds, but they're not going to play them.

Why not? Because they're all text. Newbies don't do text.

Newbies come to virtual worlds with a set of preconceptions acquired from other virtual worlds; or, failing that, from other computer games; or, failing that, from gut instinct. They will not consider virtual worlds that confront these expectations if there are others around that don't.

Put another way, if a virtual world has a feature that offends newbies, the developers will have to remove that feature or they won't get any newbies. This is irrespective of what the oldbies think: they may adore a feature, but if newbies don't like it then (under point #1) eventually there won't be anyone left to adore it.

Point #2: Newbies won't play a virtual world that has a major feature they don't like."

You can read more here: https://gamaphp.gamasutra.com/view/feature/130570/soapbox_why_virtual_worlds_are_.php

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