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Please bring back loot drop.


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People can just infinitely zombie rush you in this game. There is zero incentive to be tactical in any way, it just comes down to who has more numbers.  Then on the other hand you have other play

I didn't like this specific implementation of gear drop (not knowing if you were going to lose 1 or 10 pieces makes supply management difficult) or starting with such a high drop rate compared to the

Just for clarification. We all hate the 100% protection. I think we are arguing 50% at best with lego discs. 100% is crazy. And Im a gatherer...

1 hour ago, miraluna said:

It's the same as WT drops though, if you can't use it then pass it to a guildmate or sell it. I'd like to shop at the vendor that has quality crafted black market gear :ph34r:

We've seen this in WT gear on vendors already, people don't trade the good stuff. They trade scraps they're certain nobody in their guild will need ever. This becomes even worse when you factor in players get to pick what they risk.

Unlike WT gear, the more you farm it, the less of it shows up. Quality crafted gear as loot quickly becomes a very rare commodity VERY quickly due to the substantial time sink required to produce it in the first place.

Anybody that's losing 3 quality blue helmets in a day isn't gonna show up tomorrow in blues unless those blues are significantly easier to come by. They're gonna say "well my loss isn't really worth this effort" and adjust their yolo playstyle to use something easier to get.

The only people using decent gear, really, end up being the people very unlikely to lose it, and the stuff you find on vendors ends up being worse than the stuff you're sourcing on your own, just like WT gear. In the end you run up against storage and import/export limitations that make holding gear for guildmates not worth the effort. Even the "internal economy" of gear swapping results in a lot of stuff simply being vendored for the sake of bag or export space. This results in a lot of "synthetic churn" of items that result in a loss for one player without a corresponding gain for another player because the value of any given item is HIGHLY subjective.

The more variables you have in your economy, the more the relative rarity of an item encourages hoarding rather than selling it, but only if you, personally, need it. In short, because you're not guaranteed to find someone selling something of value you need, and because you have no reliable way to source items of that value, you hoard until something ov value presents itself.

Its the same reason people hoard rather than sell good mats and overall why the economy is already kinda busted. You might see occasional high value bartering item-for-item within your alliance or guild, but on the wider market demand is so high compared to supply for any given niche need that taking gold for your valuables is more often likely to leave you with gold you can't spend on anything you want than an opportunity to buy something you do.

If this was, say, the SWG economy this can work because storage is practically a botomoless pit so you can just hoard everything to infinity until someone needs it. The crowfall economy, however not only has anemic bank space in campaigns, but a systemic REQUIREMENT to mass-offload huge quantities of low end items that no one wants to pick up because they too are trying to offload their worst stuff to hit export requirements.

Edited by PopeUrban

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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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As someone that was pushing hard for a high dura hit system in place of loot drop I think at a point loot drop should and probably will exist in the game. The problem is even with a loot drop system the dura on items needed a hard pass. For better or worse the system that they want in the game leans heavily on crafting across the board. Crafting right now is just not where it needs to be really support a loot drops campaign. When you are crafting a weapon or doing a crafting push for 10 - 12 people its not nearly as bad as 20 - 30. And as you scale up it would continue to be bad. Albion has a good system anyone can sit down and craft their gear quickly and efficiently. Crowfall doesn't at the moment. I think until we get something like that that even crafters could do it would be great. Also the problem with WT is that it doesn't actually drop everything needed for easy come easy go. Quivers and spellbound bows don't drop. Many builds need these so if you die on an archer you are SOL. The rng drop was also another problem. I went around killing a couple people on the test dregs got nothing I needed for my classes then 5 dropped and got custard owned. It's not fun having RNG loss. Personally if theres gonna be drops again I hope its full loot as I would prefer to know what I am going to lose going into a fight. I do know that there are BAP members playing under DIS right now and we fully intended to go back to the hard econ style we previously had. From talking to EITC they also seem to be gear up to support Econ.  I think dura hit on death should honestly be something like 100 on death and that would solve some of the death pushes that you are mentioning. It would also help the economy. 

TLDR: I think a lot of people want the same things as you. Right now with the state of crafting its not sustainable or easily able to do. Testing without crafting changes is not a great solutions. Higher dura hit to force churn as well as some tweaks to crafting down the line could 100% support the system. With the higher dura hits ECON guilds will have more of a place in the meta leading to more in game economy. 

 

Edited by Communist_Puppy
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+1 just need cheaper crafting recipes to accomodate.

I would honestly like to see them keep the increased dura loss on death in recent patch and keep the equipment loss on death along with making recipes cheaper like a third of what they are now to accomodate higher risks on gear the gear need to be much easier to craft.
Kinda could do with a way to save certain recipe combinations to a favourites and saves all the location of where you placed the experimentation pips so you can craft it with all the basic resources and it will go through all the pip experimentation for all pieces needed to craft with 1 button press. 

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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I am all for dropped loot, even full loot drops and its not even the resource cost that hurts me as that just pushes for more harvesting which means more players in the world which is never a bad thing.

The issue with the current system is that it takes too long to craft when you are watching every roll to see if you need to re-roll it and how long each weapon/armour takes when you do this, if you are just doing pump and dump i'm sure you can knock out stuff very quickly and im sure some crafters will be like that, but not all are.

I am glad the item drop is a knob that can be turned on and off and in the future we do have different dregs level campaigns with different item drops rules and the item drop campaigns get better campaign rewards to compensate for the higher risk, albeit with a higher population that can make both campaigns alive.

Durability change on death is a step in the right direction, I would like to see this change din the future to higher amounts and be tweaked to find that sweet spot of not too much and not too little. Wartribe should be entry level at best to favor crafted gear in the long term and this change starts that process because of the higher durability on crafted, with a stat nerf to wartribe (dont go heavy handed but make it apparent), then a real player driven economy can start to flourish.

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Not a fan of equipment drop.  The only way it can work is when equipment is easy to replace, and therefor has little value.  People have claimed that full loot makes for better, more meaningful PVP.  This is true in my experience, but only from a perspective of the side of dominance.  The argument that  "winning feels so much better when you have something to lose", fails completely when you're always losing.  In an open world with no restraint, dominant groups are always formed and ultimately all equipment will just flood to them.  The rest of us will be weeded out from the bottom up.

The bigger problem in my opinion is that PVP is the content of a game like this.  A major challenge in an open world game based on PVP, is making sure people can actually find PVP when they want it.  Equipment drop is 100% counter productive in this effort.  People are far more likely to flee rather than fight unless they have overwhelming odds in their favor.  Players end up sitting in their town waiting for others to group up to a critical mass before venturing into the world.  

In the end I think you could say that both things are true.  Equipment drop enhances PVP and also destroys PVP.

I will argue that in a game like this, things will get personal quickly.  No extra mechanic is going to be needed to manipulate the emotional swing of me winning or losing a fight against a known enemy. 

That said, there should be a high stakes area / mode whatever for those that enjoy that.  Typically players that partake in that kind of thing would be towards the upper end of the skill spectrum and therefor competition would be even enough to make it work.    



   

Maj, Keeper of Da Plank - The Shipwrecked Pirates

 

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24 minutes ago, Marklarr said:

I am all for dropped loot, even full loot drops and its not even the resource cost that hurts me as that just pushes for more harvesting which means more players in the world which is never a bad thing.

So your ideal game loop this?

Kill someone and take their equipment. (that you will probably have no real use for)
Force them to have to farm more resources.
Rejoice that you've forced them back into the world as you kill them again.

This logic fails because it assumes that a game has a monopoly on a players time.  A player losing gear that they worked hard to get doesn't automatically translate to them sucking it up and trying again, especially not after a few attempts, it leads to them playing another game.  

You could argue that the result of this natural selection process is a game filled with players that enjoy this sort of thing, but history has shown that there is no end to this death spiral.

Maj, Keeper of Da Plank - The Shipwrecked Pirates

 

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15 minutes ago, tsp_maj said:

So your ideal game loop this?

Kill someone and take their equipment. (that you will probably have no real use for)
 

Resell there gear that is no use so people can farm gold and buy gear that people arnt gonna use?

The problem isnt the gear dropping it how difficult/timeconsuming it is to craft it. If they make it 3 times easier to acquire gear and keep the gear drop and dura loss on death in this current patch i think there be sitting on a winner when it comes to penalty of death and help keep market place flowing.

Just need more vendor spots in free cities which imo should be upgradeable by the players and each upgrade gives more player vendor spots (or players buy spots by providing an npc with white resources and each time they do the freecity slowly upgrades with more parcels and buildings and things

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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1 minute ago, tsp_maj said:

So your ideal game loop this?

Kill someone and take their equipment. (that you will probably have no real use for)
Force them to have to farm more resources.
Rejoice that you've forced them back into the world as you kill them again.

This logic fails because it assumes that a game has a monopoly on a players time.  A player losing gear that they worked hard to get doesn't automatically translate to them sucking it up and trying again, especially not after a few attempts, it leads to them playing another game.  

You could argue that the result of this natural selection process is a game filled with players that enjoy this sort of thing, but history has shown that there is no end to this death spiral.

My actual ideal game loop is heavily punished durability loss on death, i played Albion for 2 years and that game had the economy and crafting system to compensate for massive gear turnover. Crowfall doesn't currently but i would be remiss to say that it should be an option taken off the table completely for a future implementation. But also Albion was a proper pump and dump crafting system with a centralised(ish) AH that allowed an easy turn over of gear in both selling and acquiring.

I actually moved from Albion to Crowfall because it didnt have loot drop which was just a game for me of hitting my bottom line on death (t8 harvester in the main 4 harvests, t8 weapon and all armour crafts, a death was just 100k off my monthly income and maybe 1-2 harvest runs to compensate for the loss ((swamp dragons were expensive when i played hehe))).

I do actually worry about any kind of loot drop system from a crafting perspective as to make crafting quicker would be simplifying the system, even if factories were introduced which would greatly decrease time at the table it still very much feels like a pump and dump which is not what my guild is looking for. We have a crafted channel to show off everything we have made because we take pride in what we have made and that is what we see as an achievement the entire guild has worked towards.
I'm not going to say no to reducing resource costs if item drop becomes more prevalent again but so much would have to change i think the cost of them is the least of the actual problems that affect "fun".

What I do beleive is that anything that keeps the harvesters busy and enjoying that play and feeling like they are having worth to the day to day economy and not just the stockpiling because everyone is fully geared is a good thing, its not everyones playstyle but a lot have come from games and have a style that is harvesting/crafting with PvP for the cat and mouse and big sieges, different strokes for different folks.

I do agree that if the system punishes too much it will turn away players which is why the item drop in the current system was too much, but some day it might not be and at that point i will assess everything again :)

 

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As someone who has been around for a very long time, I think the loot drop experiment did what it was designed to do. While there are significant differences between the current Test context (which is itself different from a highly active Test context) and a Live context, and again to an optimal Release context, some basic facts were established, which setting aside some basic disagreements, appear to be that loot drop in principal is good, but the details matter and perhaps most importantly, more than the rate of drop has to change before it can be done in a way people will accept dealing with.

It is everything that touches the loot drop reality outside of the loot drop and rate itself where things get complicated, and in Crowfall's case, challenging. These range from something as fairly straightforward as bank storage and related management, all the way up to the very complex ENTIRE harvesting and crafting system. While I don't agree as some suggest that zombie rushes of naked players will be an issue (outside of population cap problems), it is important to understand that this one mechanic has wide implications across the board, and that everything must work together.

We just need to remember there is a difference between saying the current implementation is bad, and that loot drop in general is bad, and also that there are many things in Crowfall right now which were initially not done well, but over time were refined to the point where they are in a good place. Everyone is voicing their opinion, once ACE sorts through it all and establishes what is a reasonable average of these opinions, they will have a heading, and I believe we will eventually get to where we need to be.

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17 hours ago, MacDeath said:

I'm not opposed to a loot drop system. I AM opposed to a system where on the average I lost 2 items per death. I died 3 times in 6.4 and lost 6 items. That was too steep for me. It took a long time to make that gear and a long time to replace it.

You nailed it on that last sentence. The problem there is that gear in this game takes too much time to replace. From what we have seen from other successful PVP MMOs with gear drop, easily replaceable gear is part of the equation. CF seems to want SWG-style crafting, but they've gone a weird route. It is grindy, tedious, and convoluted. I think less people would have issue with gear drop if they dialed back the rote busy work and grind of crafting, 

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19 hours ago, miraluna said:

I do like the concept of gear looting and I think it's a great risk vs reward dynamic for a strategic pvp game. Hopefully we'll see it come back later for some rulesets, and with a better implementation.

See I don't think it's so great.

The Risk/Reward curve is like this (x=# players more per side):

8NJOtFP.png

Where the risk and reward are only close to balanced at even numbered fights.

As one side begins to outnumber the other, the risk greatly exceeds the potential reward, since additional players exponentially increase the risk, but only linearly increase the reward.

The net effect of this kind of risk/reward structure is to discourage difficult fights because it's not worth it. It means less PvP, less content.

I'd prefer a system that encourages players to try and take a fight because the penalty for losing is not as high. Winning a good fight is its own reward. Any additional punishment (ie. gear drop) inflicted on the losers is overkill and discourages future engagements.

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8 hours ago, tsp_maj said:

The bigger problem in my opinion is that PVP is the content of a game like this.  A major challenge in an open world game based on PVP, is making sure people can actually find PVP when they want it.  Equipment drop is 100% counter productive in this effort.  People are far more likely to flee rather than fight unless they have overwhelming odds in their favor.  Players end up sitting in their town waiting for others to group up to a critical mass before venturing into the world.  

This is exactly right.

Figure out what you want to happen in the game, and then incentivize it. If you want players to avoid combat, make combat more risky. If you want players to fight more, make it less risky.

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The latest patch didn't remove all loot drop on death. Inventory is still lootable so you can still gank harvesters. It's only equipped items that aren't lootable.. 

macdeath_sig.png

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The latest patch didn't remove all loot drop on death. Inventory is still lootable so you can still gank harvesters. It's only equipped items that aren't lootable.. 

macdeath_sig.png

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The latest patch didn't remove all loot drop on death. Inventory is still lootable so you can still gank harvesters. It's only equipped items that aren't lootable.. 

macdeath_sig.png

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1 hour ago, MacDeath said:

The latest patch didn't remove all loot drop on death. Inventory is still lootable so you can still gank harvesters. It's only equipped items that aren't lootable.. 

Except that a naked harvester with a respective rune (or was it belt) has 100% protection from dropping said resources.

 

lUvvzPy.png

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3 hours ago, nihilsupernum said:

Winning a good fight is its own reward. 

For you.

Some of us don't want PVP = dueling.

3 hours ago, nihilsupernum said:

Figure out what you want to happen in the game, and then incentivize it. If you want players to avoid combat, make combat more risky. If you want players to fight more, make it less risky.

I agree. They really need to figure out what this game is supposed to be. Their piecemeal approach to updates makes little sense. Did they really need to see gear looting in action to realize it wouldn't work with the current game? I hope they aren't that clueless.

Fans of risk/reward and those risk averse should have their own campaigns.

I hope next they remove permanent stealth to go along with harvester protection.

 


 

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