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Please bring back loot drop.


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34 minutes ago, APE said:

What are two players risking with zero in their inventory? What's the risk reward to general PVP?

They are both risking the same thing (time spent and durability on whatever gear they have equipped). The more rewards they start to get in their inventory, the more they have to risk until they get those rewards to the safety of a bank.

The fact that harvesting generates more rewards does make it seem to have more risk. But those rewards haven't been truly earned until they are brought home to safety. Hitting rocks isn't the hard part-- harvesting in a pvp zone where you can be killed and looted is.

Edited by Jah

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6 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

All of these gear drop zealots are late comers asking for Crowfall to pick up a design cues from games that they claim are both better, and games that are still in operation. If someone feels that is the objectively superior model, why not play the games that already use it? I've seen so many people talk up how great Albion is over the past year or so and I have to wonder why they're even sitting in these forums in stead of playing Albion?

As someone that was one of the first 200 (a few times) to kickstart this thing and a fan of gear drop, gonna point out that it isn't just new comers. @Alot provided a screenshot from kickstarter showing that ACE at least had some intention of trying different formats as that is a core concept behind the game, different ways to play.

Shadowbane is or will be on Steam, SWG servers exist, UO is still a thing. DAoC/WAR are two of my favorite games yet I can't bring myself to play them today for any length of time. Albion is a fun game, but isn't perfect for me as no game is or I'd be playing them instead of wasting my time here.

Crowfall has potential and why I backed it and still have some hope.

The concept of making a MMO that caters to different types of players with campaign rulesets is a unique selling point in MMO land. Those that want to stifle this and want only what they want is unfortunate. 

I wonder if a reason for the push back for gear loot is those that think they are the top of the food chain can't accept others might actually be willing to risk more. Just trying to pull the bar down to their level.

6 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

Is it any wonder that people who enjoyed shadowbane for its systems the prioritized fighting over territory with minimal farming for equipment

Is it any wonder that all the crafters that came from SWG with its complex and highly customizable items that didn't explode or drop in 2 days 

Crowfall hasn't lived up to either of those things. Mixing watered down or flat out worse versions of other game features isn't a selling point.

6 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

We also have things that we really don't want to see repeated from those old games, chief among them being the archaic combat systems.

Do you believe this combat system is moving anything forward? Maybe compared to Shadowbane 😄

6 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

The idea that you can abandon these mindsets when they make up such a huge portion of your player base just isn't feasible.

You are making claims without any data. I barely played SB, UO, SWG. Actually thought SB was pretty bad for the obvious technical reasons. Yet I backed KS day 1 and have been here ever since. Regardless of who backed or is still around, it's about the future. Hoping enough SB/SWG/Wiz101 fans will keep this thing going is something I wouldn't bet on as a business.

 


 

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3 minutes ago, Jah said:

They are both risking the same thing (time spent and durability on whatever gear they have equipped). The more rewards they start to get in their inventory, the more they have to risk until they get those rewards to the safety of a bank.

The fact that harvesting generates more rewards does make it seem to have more risk. But those rewards haven't been truly earned until they are brought home to safety. Hitting rocks isn't the hard part-- harvesting in a pvp zone where you can be killed and loot is.

The risk isn't even close to the same. Gatherers will generally wear expensive armor and jewelry, will have food and potions, and one or more tools for gathering. They have to be visible and make a significant amount of noise while gathering. Further, hunting gatherers is fun. Defending gatherers, usually not so much, unless they're being actively attacked. 

If we take a step back from being pedantic about what is "equal risk", we can also consider what kind of behavior these incentives reward. As several people have already pointed out, the problems do not present at low population, but at high population people will be constantly griefing at effectively no cost/risk to themselves. They don't even have to have a viable chance to win a fight, they just have to keep throwing themselves at people who control a POI to inhibit progress.

This will eventually become a war of attrition, and result in long, mandatory CTAs with no action, as the griefers will eventually move on to easier targets.  This is not a pleasant outcome for anyone. Most of us want to fight, but for a reason, with some consequences.

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The biggest issue I see people having is the time it takes to gear, well it doesn't take long to get geared. you can go kill some mobs and get a full set of WT gear (yea not BiS) in 30 minutes tops. I understand you want your min/max pieces you crafted etc. The main problem is finding that % drop rate that makes this whole thing enjoyable, most of us agree there will/should be gear drops in a campaign for those that want it. Tons of us have been asking for it, yea not the pile of dung they dropped on us but that is what testing is for. I honestly think it just needs to be fine tuned to fit in the game, if you say otherwise it cause you dont like item drops to begin with and love farming in infested. I for one will always want this gear drop idc I would even take the 20% cause I can play in WT gear and not care and have fun 

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8 minutes ago, Alot said:

Gatherers will generally wear expensive armor and jewelry, will have food and potions, and one or more tools for gathering.

Expensive armor and jewelry, and food and potions, are optional for harvesting. If you risk using them, you can harvest more effectively. The same is true for pvp armor, jewelry, and food. Most people I know try to get the best gear they can, regardless of whether it is for harvesting or pvp. I would not agree that harvesters generally have better gear than pvpers.

8 minutes ago, Alot said:

As several people have already pointed out, the problems do not present at low population, but at high population people will be constantly griefing at effectively no cost/risk to themselves. They don't even have to have a viable chance to win a fight, they just have to keep throwing themselves at people who control a POI to inhibit progress.

This will eventually become a war of attrition, and result in long, mandatory CTAs with no action, as the griefers will eventually move on to easier targets.  This is not a pleasant outcome for anyone. Most of us want to fight, but for a reason, with some consequences.

Yes, with more population there will be more activity. That will make fighting to secure harvesting locations much more fun, because there will be more pvp. Protecting harvesting locations right now is boring because it rarely leads to pvp.

If the griefers move on from attacking your harvesting location, that means you won that fight, and the reward is the harvested materials. I would disagree that that is not a pleasant outcome.

I definitely agree that most of us want to fight for a reason with consequences. Fighting over resources in campaigns while risking getting killed and looted qualifies as that.

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4 minutes ago, Jah said:

Expensive armor and jewelry, and food and potions, are optional for harvesting. If you risk using them, you can harvest more effectively. The same is true for pvp armor, jewelry, and food. Most people I know try to get the best gear they can, regardless of whether it is for harvesting or pvp. I would not agree that harvesters generally have better gear than pvpers.

Really? Most guilds (sans infinite gold) reserved coated gear for gatherers and crafters last patch. "Try to get" and actually get are two different things. Further, most people are not going to wear their Sunday's Finest to grief. 

14 minutes ago, Jah said:

Yes, with more population there will be more activity. That will make fighting to secure harvesting locations much more fun, because there will be more pvp. Protecting harvesting locations right now is boring because it rarely leads to pvp.

The problem isn't PvP. The problem is PvP that involves very little risk/cost to the attacker as this encourages griefing. 

20 minutes ago, Jah said:

I definitely agree that most of us want to fight for a reason with consequences. Fighting over resources in campaigns while risking getting killed and looted qualifies as that.

Only the gatherers can be looted. There are consequences for one side and not the other. 

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Just now, Alot said:

Really? Most guilds (sans infinite gold) reserved coated gear for gatherers and crafters last patch. "Try to get" and actually get are two different things. Further, most people are not going to wear their Sunday's Finest to grief. 

Yes, really. Armor coatings don't exist anymore, and harvesters rarely used them when they did exist. Most people wear whatever gear they have to go out to pvp. Wearing your "Sunday Finest" for specific occasions is not the norm in Crowfall.

Just now, Alot said:

Only the gatherers can be looted. There are consequences for one side and not the other. 

Anyone with valuables in their inventory can be looted. The reason harvesters might have more valuables in their inventory is because the activity they are doing generates more valuables. And if a ganker does loot those valuables-- now the ganker can be looted. The fact that valuables are at risk until you get them home to bank is the same for both harvesters and gankers. The more valuable the rewards in your inventory, the more risk you face until you get home. 

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Just now, Jah said:

Yes, really. Armor coatings don't exist anymore, and harvesters rarely used them when they did exist. Most people wear whatever gear they have to go out to pvp. Wearing your "Sunday Finest" for specific occasions is not the norm in Crowfall.

Wait, so not really then. You just contradicted yourself in the same paragraph. Harvesters did use them last patch and gankers generally did not. Griefers (of which there are few to none currently) definitely did not.

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1 minute ago, Alot said:

Wait, so not really then. You just contradicted yourself in the same paragraph. Harvesters did use them last patch and gankers generally did not. Griefers (of which there are few to none currently) definitely did not.

No, I did not contradict myself. Coatings were rarely used by anyone.

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7 minutes ago, Jah said:

No, I did not contradict myself. Coatings were rarely used by anyone.

This is getting very off-topic, but if you admit that gankers definitely did not use coatings, but some gatherers did (myself included), that would be contradicting the claim you were making in the very same paragraph. So, at least historically, gatherers risked more than gankers, and significantly more than theoretical griefers. 

And that is without even delving into the relative value of armor and jewelry for gatherers versus gankers.

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1 minute ago, Alot said:

This is getting very off-topic, but if you admit that gankers definitely did not use coatings, but some gatherers did (myself included), that would be contradicting the claim you were making in the very same paragraph.

I did not say that gankers definitely did not use coatings. You made that up to invent a "contradiction."

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1 minute ago, Jah said:

I did not say that gankers definitely did not use coatings. You made that up to invent a "contradiction."

This isn't you, then? 

1 hour ago, Jah said:

I would not agree that harvesters generally have better gear than pvpers.

 

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9 minutes ago, Alot said:

This isn't you, then? 

Read again what you just quoted me saying.

How could you possibly think that sentence says anything remotely like "gankers definitely did not use coatings"?

Edited by Jah

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27 minutes ago, Jah said:

Read again what you just quoted me saying.

Yeah, I'm having trouble following the logic. So let me get this straight: you think gankers used coatings for armor more frequently than gatherers on the last patch? Why do you believe this? And what reason would a guild have to provide coatings to gankers over gatherers and crafters?

Edited by Alot
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Just now, Alot said:

Yeah, I'm having trouble following the logic. So let me get this straight: you think gankers used coatings for armor more frequently than gatherers on the last patch? Why do you believe this? And what reason would a guild have to provide coatings to PvPers over gatherers and crafters?

I didn't say that either. You will follow the logic better if you actually read the words.

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49 minutes ago, Jah said:

I didn't say that either. You will follow the logic better if you actually read the words.

I don't think my reading comprehension is the issue here. Rather, one of us is trying desperately to prove a point that is false on it's face.

We know for a fact that some gatherers used coatings on armor last patch. You've claimed that gankers wear better gear than gatherers. This would presumably mean that you know some gankers that used armor coatings. 

What I'm trying to understand is: why? and what causes you to think this was the more common scenario? 

Edited by Alot
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3 hours ago, Alot said:

You've claimed that gankers wear better gear than gatherers.

No, I did not.

3 hours ago, Alot said:

one of us is trying desperately to prove a point that is false on it's face.

Yes, and that is you.

Edited by Jah

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3 hours ago, Alot said:

There is a significant difference between fighting without consequences vs fighting with consequences. The former is inane and encourages sheer numbers while the latter is exciting and fun.

This is entirely, 100% opinion. Don't frame it as fact for everyone when it isn't. That being said, I think your point of view is legitimate, I was just voicing a different one and agreeing with yianni, whose viewpoint I share. Crowfall is being made for all of us, one group isn't right and another wrong, we're just people who like different things that the devs cater to more or less depending on their vision for the game as well. Saying the only way the game will work is if it caters to what one group want is demonstrably false, since there are other groups that don't prefer it that way.

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2 hours ago, Jah said:

I definitely agree that most of us want to fight for a reason with consequences. Fighting over resources in campaigns while risking getting killed and looted qualifies as that.

And some of us want heavier consequences and higher risk/reward from fights over the gear on our backs and come away from a fight be it over siege, outpost, caravan, WT camp, rocks, or simply out in the open with something that we can use, sell, trade, sacrifice, export, delete. 

Due to the zerg friendly nature of this game and lack of conquest mechanics, there isn't a lot of room for the little guy to come away with much beyond going full in on quests (cards). Which is fine with a handful of people, but if this game is actually popular, it will be easy to get lost in the crowd.

 


 

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22 minutes ago, TommyTwoSocks said:

Crowfall is being made for all of us, one group isn't right and another wrong, we're just people who like different things that the devs cater to more or less depending on their vision for the game as well. Saying the only way the game will work is if it caters to what one group want is demonstrably false, since there are other groups that don't prefer it that way.

I agree, the concern I have is what is ACE going to do.

An easy come/go, streamlined game loop with multiple campaign rulesets would make the game accessible to a wider variety of players then what is currently seen. Allowing for both zero and 100% drop.

Main folks that wouldn't benefit from that are those that believe they deserve to have a stat advantage because they can throw more of their life at a game then someone else. Which to me is the opposite of what I want in a competitive game.

I have no wish to try and prove XYZ > ABC preference based on subjective reasoning or comparing apples to oranges.

What I do believe is a game that is accessible and appeals to a variety of players has a lot of potential. Which CF was initially hyped to be.

Will ACE deliver what they sold or not is what it comes down to. Waiting game is dragging on.

 


 

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