Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...

Please bring back loot drop.


Recommended Posts

5 minutes ago, APE said:

And some of us want heavier consequences and higher risk/reward from fights over the gear on our backs and come away from a fight be it over siege, outpost, caravan, WT camp, rocks, or simply out in the open with something that we can use, sell, trade, sacrifice, export, delete. 

Yep, and hopefully ACE takes full advantage of the ability to vary rulesets for different campaigns. There should definitely be campaigns with greater risk, and those campaigns should have greater rewards. I am confident that once there is enough population to support multiple campaigns, they will do this.

5 minutes ago, APE said:

Due to the zerg friendly nature of this game and lack of conquest mechanics, there isn't a lot of room for the little guy to come away with much beyond going full in on quests (cards). Which is fine with a handful of people, but if this game is actually popular, it will be easy to get lost in the crowd.

I'm not sure what you mean by a lack of conquest mechanics. There are mechanics for conquering castles, keeps, forts, and outposts. Conquest is how you win campaigns.

As for the little guy, he can earn rewards by farming resources, looting people who are farming resources, or earning campaign rewards from divine favor cards. It will be an uphill battle because it's an open world PvP game that doesn't force evenly matched fights, but it is certainly possibly for the little guy to come out of a campaign with more than he started with.

IhhQKY6.gif

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 151
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

People can just infinitely zombie rush you in this game. There is zero incentive to be tactical in any way, it just comes down to who has more numbers.  Then on the other hand you have other play

I didn't like this specific implementation of gear drop (not knowing if you were going to lose 1 or 10 pieces makes supply management difficult) or starting with such a high drop rate compared to the

Just for clarification. We all hate the 100% protection. I think we are arguing 50% at best with lego discs. 100% is crazy. And Im a gatherer...

54 minutes ago, Jah said:

Yep, and hopefully ACE takes full advantage of the ability to vary rulesets for different campaigns. There should definitely be campaigns with greater risk, and those campaigns should have greater rewards. I am confident that once there is enough population to support multiple campaigns, they will do this.

I hope so but as I've seen little attempt of there being different ways to play, I am concerned the vision won't be realized.

Seems like others are firmly against what they don't want to play which hopefully doesn't play too heavy into future development as it goes against one of the main reasons I backed this thing years ago.

Being against gear loot is the equivalent of being against Factions, Dregs, friendly fire, or any number of things. Makes little sense to me.

Quote

I'm not sure what you mean by a lack of conquest mechanics. There are mechanics for conquering castles, keeps, forts, and outposts. Conquest is how you win campaigns.

I mean just that, Crowfall has some, but they are lacking. Other games (some much older) have more going on. For a game with relatively low content being marketed as a "Throne War," I expected more focus on conquest systems.

Predetermined timed siege, standing in circles, and doing quests to dominate a scoreboard aren't remotely new nor on par with what has come before. What kind of siege game doesn't even have battering-rams or front doors to knock down? 😄

See DAoC, WAR, ESO, GW2, Albion, Planetside2 as they all have a few to a lot of different systems that I consider "conquest."

Ex:

  • Controlling POI provides benefits beyond points on a scoreboard.
    • Buffs to anything
    • Access to high value areas be it within or an entire map
    • Travel benefits or restrictions to enemies
    • Storage
    • Respawn access or lockouts
    • Artifacts/Relics of power to fight over
    • Locking down all Outposts on a Map weakens/strengthens Strongholds and Guards or does anything to reflect the effort required to do it
    • Territory control actually is a thing, not random POI on a map without any connection (RISK)
    • Things that reward coordination on a small or grand scale across the world be it long term or in the moment

I understand that winning a Campaign boils down to points without any player driven win conditions, but there is a lot more that can happen from start to finish that go beyond points and the final outcome. Objectives that change how, why, when, where people do everything.

Here's a little something from DAoC. Something like this expanded on could be a player driven win condition. Control all "relics" and win the campaign.

https://www.ign.com/wikis/dark-age-of-camelot/Relics#Relic_Basics

Essentially anything to fill the PVP content void that people complain about. Gate camping, pointless open world fights, and ganking those doing PVE is pretty low hanging fruit content.

Quote

As for the little guy, he can earn rewards by farming resources, looting people who are farming resources, or earning campaign rewards from divine favor cards. It will be an uphill battle because it's an open world PvP game that doesn't force evenly matched fights, but it is certainly possibly for the little guy to come out of a campaign with more than he started with.

So do PVE or gank people doing PVE and hope they have something I value? As a PVP fan, those are not ideal.

Now add in gear drop and any target has something I could potentially equip, sell, sacrifice, hang on to or simply delete to weaken enemies. Also a fan of skulls having some PVP reward value as well for the gear loss averse.

 


 

Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, APE said:

I hope so but as I've seen little attempt of there being different ways to play, I am concerned the vision won't be realized.

It's really hard to dive into having multiple different ways to play when the active playerbase isn't large enough to populate a single campaign.

Something like the recent addition of equipped drop loot can be seen as an attempt to make another way to play. It may not be popular as the default (and only) Dregs ruleset that everyone plays right now, but it is an example of something they've added to their toolkit that they can make use of in the future when there are enough players to populate multiple campaigns at the same time.

This is also part of why most debates about how things ought to work in Crowfall become so polarized. People either want a mechanic, or don't want the mechanic, without paying much attention to how the game can can have both. Right now, and for the foreseeable future, whatever rule is implement for campaigns is forced on all players. That has an effect on the debates.

Every change that happens to the Dregs ruleset over time can be seen as experiments on potential Dregs variants in the future. All the changes we've seen in the past have arguably helped to flesh out the toolkit of options for future rulesets-- even those mechanics that got removed. But it takes a bit of faith and imagination to see them that way.

Edited by Jah

IhhQKY6.gif

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jah said:

It's really hard to dive into having multiple different ways to play when the active playerbase isn't large enough to populate a single campaign.

Every single campaign could have any number of different rules, features, and dials turned to 11. Heck every update to an active campaign can change these things.

Obviously it makes no sense to run 10 different campaigns currently, but trying things like gear drop, friendly fire, different group sizes, melee twice as strong, elves only have 50 health, 5x resource drop, 10x decay, etc are worth seeing the reaction and is IMO better then running campaigns nearly identical for months/years.

When are they going to test such things?

Trying to please a tiny crowd today, which isn't exactly on the same page, will do nothing to help the larger crowd tomorrow.

Forest for the trees. 😔

 


 

Link to post
Share on other sites

im glad they gave item drop a try and i hope they got enough data for the mechanical testing of the system itself, since this mechanic has been so polarising i think it was a good call to remove it for the time being to test other things with a larger player base.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, APE said:

Every single campaign could have any number of different rules, features, and dials turned to 11. Heck every update to an active campaign can change these things.

Obviously it makes no sense to run 10 different campaigns currently, but trying things like gear drop, friendly fire, different group sizes, melee twice as strong, elves only have 50 health, 5x resource drop, 10x decay, etc are worth seeing the reaction and is IMO better then running campaigns nearly identical for months/years.

When are they going to test such things?

Trying to please a tiny crowd today, which isn't exactly on the same page, will do nothing to help the larger crowd tomorrow.

Forest for the trees. 😔

If not now, when? Post launch? It's crazy to not test out these different ruleset campaign right now during TEST!

macdeath_sig.png

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

4 hours ago, Jah said:

All the changes we've seen in the past have arguably helped to flesh out the toolkit of options for future rulesets-- even those mechanics that got removed. But it takes a bit of faith and imagination to see them that way.

Yes... the artisan engine is getting fleshed out quite nicely with options. Judging by player interaction I would say we need more than faith and imagination. As you said,

4 hours ago, Jah said:

the active playerbase isn't large enough to populate a single campaign.

This isnt from having multiple rulesets, its from the base game being a mess. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/10/2021 at 7:04 AM, mystafyi said:

 

This isnt from having multiple rulesets, its from the base game being a mess. 

And 4 years of the same .3% of their backers being the testers 

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/10/2021 at 8:04 AM, mystafyi said:

This isnt from having multiple rulesets, its from the base game being a mess. 

I didn't say the population is low from having multiple rulesets.

I said the population isn't large enough to populate a single campaign.

IhhQKY6.gif

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/7/2021 at 6:45 PM, PopeUrban said:

This 50% is the absolute most acceptable if there's ever going to be a healthy amount of risk in harvesting. Personally I don't see the need to protect it at all considering that ACE has worked so hard over the years to make harvesting have no build costs that impact a harvester's ability to defend themselves.

 

I think it's a bit daft to try to peg a hard value to these things right now. 

Frankly having campaign world dials around OPTIONS like this is the best strategy.  Maybe some people want to play in care bear land with zero looting, and others want 100% of everything to drop every time. 

As a dial it can be set up as a campaign configuration, and eventually the players will vote with there participation levels in said campaigns. 

I'm just glad the dials now exist, so they can be tested so the most popular ideal models can come to the surface. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/10/2021 at 1:11 AM, Jah said:

It's really hard to dive into having multiple different ways to play when the active playerbase isn't large enough to populate a single campaign.

Something like the recent addition of equipped drop loot can be seen as an attempt to make another way to play. It may not be popular as the default (and only) Dregs ruleset that everyone plays right now, but it is an example of something they've added to their toolkit that they can make use of in the future when there are enough players to populate multiple campaigns at the same time.

This is also part of why most debates about how things ought to work in Crowfall become so polarized. People either want a mechanic, or don't want the mechanic, without paying much attention to how the game can can have both. Right now, and for the foreseeable future, whatever rule is implement for campaigns is forced on all players. That has an effect on the debates.

Every change that happens to the Dregs ruleset over time can be seen as experiments on potential Dregs variants in the future. All the changes we've seen in the past have arguably helped to flesh out the toolkit of options for future rulesets-- even those mechanics that got removed. But it takes a bit of faith and imagination to see them that way.

I would argue that having more than one active ruleset might in fact be the catalyst that drives more players to try and stick with the game, not the other way around.  

If the rules we have been playing for a while now are not enticing, maybe opening up more options rather than splitting the audience, would simply draw new audiences. 

Right now it's very much like it or leave it.  With more options you have a different possible response to not liking it, you could move to a ruleset you like more. 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I would argue that having more than one active ruleset might in fact be the catalyst that drives more players to try and stick with the game, not the other way around. 

In the long run? Yea. At any time in the past, or now? Probably not.

IhhQKY6.gif

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/7/2021 at 3:53 PM, Parallel said:

We had another 10-15 players coming into the game from Albion that are now having second thoughts. I am now having second thoughts.

Developers, please don't be blinded by the opinions of a few nerds who have been fighting the same old people for the last few years. A full loot drop game has a mass appeal and you will pull players from Albion Online, those disappointed in New World because they also went the no-drop route, old Ultima Online players and more. Your audience is NOT World of Warcraft and during test/beta you will see less of your true audience playing due to the wipes. Please, please add some kind of loot drop system back. Splitting campaigns to make some full drop and others not will just ruin PvP like Trammel/Felucca did in UO. 

Wasn't this sort of the point of the original campaign system? That various campaigns would have different loot rules and other campaign rules. So your GvG Dregs was the FFA, full loot campaign, and then going on down the line you had various less hardcore campaigns (So the current Faction v Faction for example). One of the appeals of Crowfall initially was that it offered something for everyone when it comes to OwPvP fans and could very easily with just the offering of different rulesets, cater to all of these people. The fact that other campaigns existed that weren't full loot, but maybe partial loot, or no loot at all depending on the campaign, meant that Dregs could exist as a full loot FFA campaign simply because there were other options.

Edited by Leiloni
Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, Leiloni said:

Wasn't this sort of the point of the original campaign system? That various campaigns would have different loot rules and other campaign rules. 

As it turns out many folks testing this game want no gear looting, just inventory looting, but not in their relatively safe harvesting zones. One campaign type is for safe leveling, the next is for safe harvesting and dregs is for safe combat.

Edited by mystafyi
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/7/2021 at 11:22 AM, Parallel said:

I guess my counter to that is, why is everyone running around in crafted gear that takes forever to make? Why isn't that end game and used in formal battle situations like we do in Albion? I don't always run around in my gucci gear. Instead, people have an incentive to farm War Tribes and Outposts and wear that gear. That means there is a lot more open world traffic because players are out doing things more. Then players can set up vending locations in free towns selling this gear, creating an economy.

My guild saw the changes, we set up a production line to crank out enough gear sets to not care if we die. I also ran around killing War Tribes / looting outposts to see how much gear I could accumulate to continue roaming open world without care if I died. I saw the beginnings of one of the most beautiful games I had played since UO with loot drops. 

Imagine logging on in the middle of the day and finding groups of people fighting over Heralds, fighting over War Tribe Chiefs? Isn't that the dream instead of gathering? 

1. It must be nice to be in a guild that can set up an "assembly line" That supports biggest zerg wins.

2. If full loot pvp games were so popular, then why are they constantly out performed by literally every other genre of game? 

On the surface I get what you are saying, but we have to be aware of "fixing" this game to death. You are right to be thinking about these things, but we are not even in release yet. What happens when this goes live, all the experienced players are hell bent on their way to 30 making sure they gank anyone not in their guild as much as possible and then doing exactly what you say? Set up a gear factory, and get the economy moving. That fresh lvl 18 (or 30) player just showing up in infected trying to get the next step on the gear train, isn't going to enjoy being thrashed all over the map, and then you will be whining why can't anyone buy my over priced crafted gear...well sparky that is because no one can grind the amount of gold required to buy anything because all the large guilds have everything on lock and no one can grind gear or gold.

It's a vicious circle and it is what leads to the death of games. People need a fighting chance. If I showed up here and started leveling a toon only to find out I can lose all my crappy equipment if I get jumped, and I am going to get jumped by however many people can find me, then why beat my head against a brick wall? 

Crafting needs to be a valid form of income, but players also need to be able to get their feet underneath them and get a good start before we commence with screwing them over or we are back to where PvP games always end up. the same 25 people fighting each other over the same castle wondering why they can't get any fresh blood to join. sounds like a great time.

Edited by Ajokoira
Redundant statements
Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Ajokoira said:

1. It must be nice to be in a guild that can set up an "assembly line" That supports biggest zerg wins.

Isn't that how things are supposed to work? Players/guilds that put in the effort should reap some rewards. New, solo, smaller teams need to have a way to play and compete as well, but the goal should be to become a war machine fighting for campaign victory and rewards.

12 hours ago, Ajokoira said:

2. If full loot pvp games were so popular, then why are they constantly out performed by literally every other genre of game? 

Do you mean MMO's specific because "full loot pvp games" are rather popular depending on the criteria.

Genres such as FPS, MOBA, RTS, Battle Royale, Survival are winner take all. Whatever is earned is lost be it another player takes it or the match ends. These genres and even individual titles dwarf WoW and MMOs overall.

Full loot MMOs specifically have struggled because for the most part they have suffered some sort of issues be it quality, not enough support, design flaws, etc which goes beyond the full loot mechanic. 

However there are games that stand out as either being popular still or at least in their time for those that like the model. EVE, Darkfall, UO, Albion Online, Rust, ARK, Atlas.

Most popular games have some form of PVP and competitiveness. The most popular don't seem to be the "keep stuff forever" models without any risk or loss. It's either all or nothing, with Crowfall's model of trying to walk the line being the least popular of everything. How many games have inventory only looting where those doing PVE are the only ones that really risk any items?

12 hours ago, Ajokoira said:

What happens when this goes live, all the experienced players are hell bent on their way to 30 making sure they gank anyone not in their guild as much as possible and then doing exactly what you say? 

People need a fighting chance. If I showed up here and started leveling a toon only to find out I can lose all my crappy equipment if I get jumped, and I am going to get jumped by however many people can find me, then why beat my head against a brick wall? 

This is where campaign types and rulesets can allow different playstyles and types of players to find options that fit them. Crowfall isn't supposed to be one size fits all. A good core model could easily offer zero loot and full loot campaigns.

 


 

Link to post
Share on other sites

until the game has enough funny things to do 24/7 and a reason to keep playing it no matter what ruleset you put on the campaign. 

Edited by EnsaimadaBlanca

                                                 

Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, EnsaimadaBlanca said:

until the game has enough funny things to do 24/7 and a reason to keep playing it no matter what ruleset you put on the campaign. 

This is a major issue with me. I dont play in the siege windows, so for me and many that play on 'off time' the game is simply not the same as compared to those that primarily play in siege windows. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/23/2021 at 11:10 PM, APE said:

Isn't that how things are supposed to work? Players/guilds that put in the effort should reap some rewards. New, solo, smaller teams need to have a way to play and compete as well, but the goal should be to become a war machine fighting for campaign victory and rewards.

Do you mean MMO's specific because "full loot pvp games" are rather popular depending on the criteria.

Genres such as FPS, MOBA, RTS, Battle Royale, Survival are winner take all. Whatever is earned is lost be it another player takes it or the match ends. These genres and even individual titles dwarf WoW and MMOs overall.

Full loot MMOs specifically have struggled because for the most part they have suffered some sort of issues be it quality, not enough support, design flaws, etc which goes beyond the full loot mechanic. 

However there are games that stand out as either being popular still or at least in their time for those that like the model. EVE, Darkfall, UO, Albion Online, Rust, ARK, Atlas.

Most popular games have some form of PVP and competitiveness. The most popular don't seem to be the "keep stuff forever" models without any risk or loss. It's either all or nothing, with Crowfall's model of trying to walk the line being the least popular of everything. How many games have inventory only looting where those doing PVE are the only ones that really risk any items?

This is where campaign types and rulesets can allow different playstyles and types of players to find options that fit them. Crowfall isn't supposed to be one size fits all. A good core model could easily offer zero loot and full loot campaigns.

1. It should work like that, I agree however it should not create a gate that keeps new players away.

2. Please cite your source on that, I play many MOBAS, Shooters, and survival games, not one of them can rival the player population in WoW. As far as MMO's go, which is what I am speaking to because why compare apples and oranges? Yeah, Full Loot PvP games are very niche, which if that is the goal for this game, then cool, that will be achieved. If the idea is to get a large healthy community, then making it so a new players gear break every 5 deaths (exaggerating, but not by much) is again going to create a very tough gate to get through. 

Here is a link you can follow for the top grossing games to date (they say all time but afaik we still have some left) Let me know when you get to the first full loot lose everything game. I will wait. https://www.titlemax.com/discovery-center/lifestyle/the-top-50-highest-grossing-video-game-franchises/

Eve, yes - darkfall what the ten people that still play that? and it was not popular during it's "day". UO yes, still has a cult like following, and yes Albion seems quite popular. Rust, Ark, Atlas - Survival games, and not worth discussing here as again, apples and oranges.

This might be the answer right here. If the game offers different flavors of campaign allowing for newer players to get their feet wet without being re-set to 0 every time they lose a fight, then most of my points above are moot.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.


×
×
  • Create New...