Please bring back loot drop.

[mystafyi 962]

4 hours ago, Ajokoira said:

 https://www.titlemax.com/discovery-center/lifestyle/the-top-50-highest-grossing-video-game-franchises/

 

Really titlemax? You realize they have a game console in #3 position. Yes a game console. Space invaders, pacman? jesus....

[APE 3,181]

On 2/25/2021 at 3:22 PM, Ajokoira said:

1. It should work like that, I agree however it should not create a gate that keeps new players away.

Totally agree and why I hope Crowfall and it's original concept of multiple ways to play (campaigns/rulesets) allows players to find something that fits them.

Unfortunately the game isn't popular enough currently to support this so we have a wide variety of players be it skill level, experience, organization, game knowledge, faction/dregs preference, etc all in the same campaigns. It doesn't make for a good experience IMO and looking at the numbers, I'm not an outlier.

The game can support new and experienced players, but ACE has to build out the systems to support it and make the base game experience fun enough for people to stick around to see the options. This is beyond offering full loot or not.

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2. Please cite your source on that, I play many MOBAS, Shooters, and survival games, not one of them can rival the player population in WoW.

Guess it depends on where you get your numbers but a quick search:

Fortnite: 350 million, 15 m million concurrent, at least 25 m daily 

League: 115 million, 50 m daily

WoW: 114 million, 5.4 m daily

https://leaguefeed.net/did-you-know-total-league-of-legends-player-count-updated/#:~:text=League of Legends has a,its direct competitor%2C Dota 2.

https://mmo-population.com/r/wow/

https://www.gamesradar.com/how-many-people-play-fortnite/

https://culturedvultures.com/how-many-people-still-play-fortnite/#daily

 

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As far as MMO's go, which is what I am speaking to because why compare apples and oranges? Yeah, Full Loot PvP games are very niche, which if that is the goal for this game, then cool, that will be achieved. If the idea is to get a large healthy community, then making it so a new players gear break every 5 deaths (exaggerating, but not by much) is again going to create a very tough gate to get through.

EVE: 8.3 million, 632k daily

https://mmo-population.com/r/eve

Albion: 2.6 million, 222k daily

https://mmo-population.com/r/albiononline

Every game is a niche, some genres are a lot more accessible compared to MMOs and why overall they have more users. ACE wasn't even aiming for 100k from the early projections that I remember. Which makes no sense when a game like Albion can do 200k a day and EVE which they used to build the hype is doing 600k. 

How accessible a game is depends on many factors, not just how often one has to replace their gear or how they lose it. Plenty of games have zero decay/loss and don't do well.

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Here is a link you can follow for the top grossing games to date (they say all time but afaik we still have some left) Let me know when you get to the first full loot lose everything game. I will wait. https://www.titlemax.com/discovery-center/lifestyle/the-top-50-highest-grossing-video-game-franchises/

While that list is outdated, it doesn't exactly support anything. Franchises spanning decades make money...

There are only 3 MMO franchises on the list that I see, of which one had full loot PVP (Not a Lineage fan but I believe L2 does or did).

There are several FPS, BR, MOBA and other competitive franchises with full loot and permadeath. Guess ACE shouldn't of made a MMO? Better off with a Pokemon clone?

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Eve, yes - darkfall what the ten people that still play that? and it was not popular during it's "day". UO yes, still has a cult like following, and yes Albion seems quite popular. Rust, Ark, Atlas - Survival games, and not worth discussing here as again, apples and oranges.

The hype train for this game was built on nostalgia of Shadowbane, UO, SWG, EVE comparisons, and a decent mention of "Survival" elements. The survival aspect has been walked backed and removed beyond the chicken ticker.

Seemed like ACE was trying to combine elements of MMOs, RVR battlegrounds, and lobby games (timed matches). Which could appeal to an audience that enjoys Survival, MOBA, BR, FPS, MMO, etc. So might be apples to oranges, but there is a decent overlap in player bases to pull from.

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This might be the answer right here. If the game offers different flavors of campaign allowing for newer players to get their feet wet without being re-set to 0 every time they lose a fight, then most of my points above are moot.

Exactly. There is zero reason this game should only be one way. Campaign rulesets offer options. If someone doesn't like full loot, don't play on a campaign with it.

Problem is people can't see beyond their narrow preferences to see options can be good for a game. Also believe some see themselves as the top dogs and if they don't like something like full loot because it is too harsh, they want to make sure it isn't around, because it points out that they aren't as top dog as they think they are. They want the bar brought down to them.

There is no "right" way to make a game that will please everyone. If a product can provide options for a variety of players, why not at least give it a try? Offering 1 full loot, 1 partial loot, 1 no loot at a time vs 3 no loot doesn't make sense to me. Now if 5 people show up on the full loot server, maybe it isn't worth the server cost, but there's only one way to find out.

They started Crowfall hype marketing with a manifesto that ended with "I WANT TO PLAY TO CRUSH."

To me that means crushing other players, seems others believe it means rocks or at least only crushing those crushing rocks. 😄

Edited February 27 by APE

[mystafyi 962]

5 hours ago, APE said:

Also believe some see themselves as the top dogs and if they don't like something like full loot because it is too harsh, they want to make sure it isn't around, because it points out that they aren't as top dog as they think they are. They want the bar brought down to them.

I think it has to do with full loot systems dont really mesh with heavy grind and complex crafting. The folks that like the grind and crafting dont want to see full loot since that will probably mean lessening of the grind and crafting both. The game already has gear drop that negates a large portion of crafting and there is no economy to help support, its a hot mess for those players as is. I just dont think its a penis size thing here at all. 

[APE 3,181]

22 hours ago, mystafyi said:

I think it has to do with full loot systems dont really mesh with heavy grind and complex crafting. The folks that like the grind and crafting dont want to see full loot since that will probably mean lessening of the grind and crafting both. The game already has gear drop that negates a large portion of crafting and there is no economy to help support, its a hot mess for those players as is. I just dont think its a penis size thing here at all. 

Overall it is a mess regardless of reasons for against any of this. Crafting is superficially complex and not user friendly, PVE grinding is lacking compared to other games, and doesn't seem like there are plans to make any of it work together to actually have a functioning economy. 

[Ajokoira 66]

On 2/25/2021 at 6:14 PM, mystafyi said:

Really titlemax? You realize they have a game console in #3 position. Yes a game console. Space invaders, pacman? jesus....

For the point I was making it's just fine. The point being that full loot PvP MMO's aren't all that popular. Ape likes to compare apples to oranges this pretty much ended the conversation for me. If they were that popular they would be the top of the sales charts, they aren't so they aren't. 

[mystafyi 962]

27 minutes ago, Ajokoira said:

For the point I was making it's just fine. The point being that full loot PvP MMO's aren't all that popular. Ape likes to compare apples to oranges this pretty much ended the conversation for me. If they were that popular they would be the top of the sales charts, they aren't so they aren't. 

I disagree. It is hard to compare an mmorpg to a nintendo game console and video game franchises like pacman and space invaders. That chart and list is comprised with all sorts of 'apples to cucumbers' 

[APE 3,181]

3 hours ago, Ajokoira said:

For the point I was making it's just fine. The point being that full loot PvP MMO's aren't all that popular. Ape likes to compare apples to oranges this pretty much ended the conversation for me. If they were that popular they would be the top of the sales charts, they aren't so they aren't. 

Silly to use apples to oranges yet you link a list of best selling franchises spanning decades, genres, consoles. Okay.

You were incorrect that not one title of XYZ genre can rival WoW. 

Full loot, permadeath, competitive PVP games/genres are "popular" unless you are using some strange metric to compare. Many of such games/franchises are on the list you provided. Along with the only MMO franchise actually on the list, of which L2 had full loot. Warcraft and Final Fantasy are several titles/genres.

Using that list and your logic, MMOs aren't popular. Again, guess ACE should of made a Pokemon clone. Crowfall will never be "popular" in comparison. What were they thinking?

Despite the pointless comparisons, in MMO land, EVE and Albion are direct examples of MMOs with full loot that are doing just fine. Makes more sense (to me) for Crowfall to have partial/full loot then not at all. Be it simply because campaign rulesets can do so or the entire game is built upon the idea of destruction, loss, progress, competition, win/lose, etc. The more permanence the more issue with snowball, uncle bob, uphill climb for new players, lacking economy, and less accessibility.

Crowfall has some clear design flaws which make gear looting not work well, but those flaws could/should be improved to allow gear looting to work but more importantly for the core game to actually function well. 

[mystafyi 962]

6 hours ago, APE said:

Crowfall has some clear design flaws which make gear looting not work well, but those flaws could/should be improved to allow gear looting to work but more importantly for the core game to actually function well. 

The original design of the game had gear looting. The changes they made to the game during development created the flaws. At this point I dont foresee any looting of players at launch. They will not be able to balance the other rulesets pvp immunity and import/exports without just making everyone's inventory immune from looting to remove the risk/reward factor. I think that will be the easiest way out and will mesh with what seems to be their current vision of a more moba/lobby game with matches and tournaments. 

[Ajokoira 66]

22 hours ago, APE said:

Silly to use apples to oranges yet you link a list of best selling franchises spanning decades, genres, consoles. Okay.

You were incorrect that not one title of XYZ genre can rival WoW. 

Full loot, permadeath, competitive PVP games/genres are "popular" unless you are using some strange metric to compare. Many of such games/franchises are on the list you provided. Along with the only MMO franchise actually on the list, of which L2 had full loot. Warcraft and Final Fantasy are several titles/genres.

Using that list and your logic, MMOs aren't popular. Again, guess ACE should of made a Pokemon clone. Crowfall will never be "popular" in comparison. What were they thinking?

Despite the pointless comparisons, in MMO land, EVE and Albion are direct examples of MMOs with full loot that are doing just fine. Makes more sense (to me) for Crowfall to have partial/full loot then not at all. Be it simply because campaign rulesets can do so or the entire game is built upon the idea of destruction, loss, progress, competition, win/lose, etc. The more permanence the more issue with snowball, uncle bob, uphill climb for new players, lacking economy, and less accessibility.

Crowfall has some clear design flaws which make gear looting not work well, but those flaws could/should be improved to allow gear looting to work but more importantly for the core game to actually function well. 

Ok, First, they aren't. Name a MOBA that is full loot, if there are any I have not seen them. They may exist. Are you purposefully obtuse in everything?

BR games are what they are, and they are wildly popular right now, which I guess is why ACE has decided to go down that route. But they are not MMORPG games, and not the crowd that would be drawn to this title en masse. 

Of the MMORPG games out there very few have come close to WoW's popularity. 

Warcraft is a strategy game. Final fantasy may have been PvP full loot at some point, I dunno I have only ever been in 14 and I don't recall if it even had PvP, not a franchise I can really speak to.

However, I did play lineage 2 for several years, and while not as popular as Lineage 1, it still had a relatively decent following. Lineage 2 did not have full loot, you had a chance to drop gear/weapons and that chance rose the more crime you had, ie red name.

MMO's aren't popular, they are a very small part of the market, other games, like Tetris is the MOST popular game, followed by Roblox. So, we are already discussing a tiny portion of gaming, and within that an even smaller portion of which people like "full" loot. It's not even close to being a popular feature in games. You keep sighting PvP games, and that isn't the point, of the relatively small player base the enjoy MMO pvp full loot is on the bottom of that list.

PS 2 is doing just fine as well, it has no loot, but it is also irrelevant to sight as it's not this type of game. 

[APE 3,181]

9 hours ago, Ajokoira said:

Ok, First, they aren't.

What aren't?

9 hours ago, Ajokoira said:

Name a MOBA that is full loot, if there are any I have not seen them. They may exist.

I didn't claim any MOBA was full loot. I mentioned that I've seen MOBA/Shooters with more players then WoW after you claimed none rival it.

While not full loot, many MOBA/FPS/Survival games have death match, permadeath, or matches that end resulting in losing everything obtained. I look to these to see that "the masses" aren't afraid to play games where they likely will lose their pixels likely multiple times in a play session. Those games aren't built with this in mind though, so it works. Crowfall's design doesn't work well without gear loot when it comes to the economic/gear loop so of course it doesn't work well with gear loot.

9 hours ago, Ajokoira said:

Are you purposefully obtuse in everything?

Example? I'm responding to the comments and claims you made. If they weren't clear or are incorrect as stated, I can only work with what you are providing. Not agreeing with your doesn't make me obtuse.

9 hours ago, Ajokoira said:

BR games are what they are, and they are wildly popular right now, which I guess is why ACE has decided to go down that route. But they are not MMORPG games, and not the crowd that would be drawn to this title en masse.

What crowd is going to be drawn to this title?

Having to rely on a BR mode to drive numbers and hopefully make the MMO more enticing seems to point out that ACE isn't confident in the MMO. Going on almost 6 years and they are back to square one with the Hunger Dome. Which is fine with me as I enjoyed the HD and have advocated for an arena mode since 2015.

Unfortunate they've already planned imbalance in a competitive format that general is enjoyed specifically because it is balanced. 🙃

9 hours ago, Ajokoira said:

Of the MMORPG games out there very few have come close to WoW's popularity.

And? No sane company is trying to reach that popularity in the MMO space, at least not anymore. JTC has used WoW as an example of something they aren't trying to duplicate numerous times. There are enough gamers that it isn't be #1 by a mile or be a failure.

9 hours ago, Ajokoira said:

However, I did play lineage 2 for several years, and while not as popular as Lineage 1, it still had a relatively decent following. Lineage 2 did not have full loot, you had a chance to drop gear/weapons and that chance rose the more crime you had, ie red name.

Never played either, but I see L2 mentioned in discussions of MMOs with full loot. Maybe it was early on or only particular circumstances, but it did have player looting of some flavor.

9 hours ago, Ajokoira said:

MMO's aren't popular, they are a very small part of the market, other games, like Tetris is the MOST popular game, followed by Roblox. So, we are already discussing a tiny portion of gaming, and within that an even smaller portion of which people like "full" loot. It's not even close to being a popular feature in games. You keep sighting PvP games, and that isn't the point, of the relatively small player base the enjoy MMO pvp full loot is on the bottom of that list.

JTC referenced both EVE and Albion in today's stream. To me they are the most similar live MMOs to Crowfall, despite all being very different. EVE and AO offer options for players with different risk/reward tastes within the same shared space. Crowfall has the benefit of offering individual play spaces with different rulesets.

Where any of these games fall on the list is irrelevant. What is more likely, WoW fans or EVE/AO fans trying out Crowfall and enjoying it?

ACE would be doing a disservice to themselves and their customers to not offer options that have potential within the core design of the game (don't require extra work).

If gear looting gets no attention, okay, move on. Same goes for any ruleset.

Using "there aren't any popular full loot MMOs" as the reasoning doesn't make sense though. Especially when there are two relatively popular MMOs that do have full loot along with them sharing qualities with Crowfall and ACE themselves pointing to them as common products.

[Ajokoira 66]

12 hours ago, APE said:

What aren't?

I didn't claim any MOBA was full loot. I mentioned that I've seen MOBA/Shooters with more players then WoW after you claimed none rival it.

While not full loot, many MOBA/FPS/Survival games have death match, permadeath, or matches that end resulting in losing everything obtained. I look to these to see that "the masses" aren't afraid to play games where they likely will lose their pixels likely multiple times in a play session. Those games aren't built with this in mind though, so it works. Crowfall's design doesn't work well without gear loot when it comes to the economic/gear loop so of course it doesn't work well with gear loot.

Example? I'm responding to the comments and claims you made. If they weren't clear or are incorrect as stated, I can only work with what you are providing. Not agreeing with your doesn't make me obtuse.

What crowd is going to be drawn to this title?

Having to rely on a BR mode to drive numbers and hopefully make the MMO more enticing seems to point out that ACE isn't confident in the MMO. Going on almost 6 years and they are back to square one with the Hunger Dome. Which is fine with me as I enjoyed the HD and have advocated for an arena mode since 2015.

Unfortunate they've already planned imbalance in a competitive format that general is enjoyed specifically because it is balanced. 🙃

And? No sane company is trying to reach that popularity in the MMO space, at least not anymore. JTC has used WoW as an example of something they aren't trying to duplicate numerous times. There are enough gamers that it isn't be #1 by a mile or be a failure.

Never played either, but I see L2 mentioned in discussions of MMOs with full loot. Maybe it was early on or only particular circumstances, but it did have player looting of some flavor.

JTC referenced both EVE and Albion in today's stream. To me they are the most similar live MMOs to Crowfall, despite all being very different. EVE and AO offer options for players with different risk/reward tastes within the same shared space. Crowfall has the benefit of offering individual play spaces with different rulesets.

Where any of these games fall on the list is irrelevant. What is more likely, WoW fans or EVE/AO fans trying out Crowfall and enjoying it?

ACE would be doing a disservice to themselves and their customers to not offer options that have potential within the core design of the game (don't require extra work).

If gear looting gets no attention, okay, move on. Same goes for any ruleset.

Using "there aren't any popular full loot MMOs" as the reasoning doesn't make sense though. Especially when there are two relatively popular MMOs that do have full loot along with them sharing qualities with Crowfall and ACE themselves pointing to them as common products.

I meant to post this yesterday, I apologize for the delay.

After yesterdays live stream it turns out I am wrong. They are going the BR route and that changes a lot. So, you are correct and I stand corrected. Good day.

[warfox 2]

I agree with this. At the very least add in a world to infected that you can only get to from a gate from the city that is similar to one of the worlds in guild vs guild where creatures are lol 30 plus and drop purple and its full loot drop. Guild vs guild is great and all but some love for infected would be great.