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Dev's cmon, Shadowbane is now on steam with almost 500 :(


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Team,

We WANT this game to succeed.  You have an engine, you have updated graphics, you have the ground-work.  Why cant you just port over the MAJORITY of the original and make it happen???

Shadowbane is now on steam with almost 500 people online tonight...

Can you guys just go back to the "roots" of that game and try to just bring it over... I'm not asking for a "copy"...just maybe take the majority of the FOCUS it has/had. Maybe? Kinda? sorta...pretty plz???

:(

Wrain

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I critiqued this YEARS ago and the train just kept moving forward.  I'll take the bait though and go ahead and relist my thoughts in a very short condensed version. 1.  Shadowbane's main "draw" w

@ACE-Tiggs @ace-tyrant Please read. MANY of the early backers feel like this. No, you don't have to make CrowFall an SB2, but SOME of that stuff will help a bunch with player retention.

Losing the ability to build anywhere thereby investing in the game world doesnt help. Not sure how EK's fit in now and what the economy is supposed to be. Territory system for conquest didnt make it i

10 hours ago, Wrain said:

We WANT this game to succeed.  You have an engine, you have updated graphics, you have the ground-work.  Why cant you just port over the MAJORITY of the original and make it happen???

That isn't how game development works.....

 

But the fact that an 18 something year old game has more people playing than a modern day spiritual successor is troubling; even if It's mostly curiosity and nostalgia that's driving those numbers tho.

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If they solve the city/economic/guild identity loop, this game is superior to Shadowbane, IMO. The combat is massively more balanced than SB ever was (attack rating/defense mechanic is horrendous).

It is a big IF to see what they do to improve our engagement in the world. The weakest point of CF was the strongest point in SB (city/territory ownership and identity). At least they've finally put in binding, that's a start.

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4 hours ago, Helix said:

That isn't how game development works.....

 

But the fact that an 18 something year old game has more people playing than a modern day spiritual successor is troubling; even if It's mostly curiosity and nostalgia that's driving those numbers tho.

sigh.  (shakes head)

Not talking about programming and porting code over.  

Wrain

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9 minutes ago, McTan said:

If they solve the city/economic/guild identity loop, this game is superior to Shadowbane, IMO. The combat is massively more balanced than SB ever was (attack rating/defense mechanic is horrendous).

It is a big IF to see what they do to improve our engagement in the world. The weakest point of CF was the strongest point in SB (city/territory ownership and identity). At least they've finally put in binding, that's a start.

Losing the ability to build anywhere thereby investing in the game world doesnt help. Not sure how EK's fit in now and what the economy is supposed to be. Territory system for conquest didnt make it in either. Lack of physical character customization further disconnects involvement. Just too many things not connected yet that makes me feel sort  of disconnected like playing a moba or lobby game with missions with advantage carryover.

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2 hours ago, Wrain said:

sigh.  (shakes head)

Not talking about programming and porting code over.  

Wrain

What are you talking about?

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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2 hours ago, Wrain said:

sigh.  (shakes head)

Not talking about programming and porting code over.  

Wrain

 

18 hours ago, Wrain said:

You have an engine, you have updated graphics, you have the ground-work.  Why cant you just port over the MAJORITY of the original and make it happen???

Crowfall is its own thing; not shadowbane 2. While shadowbane had some good stuff to it, it also had a lot of baggage.

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31 minutes ago, Helix said:

 

Crowfall is its own thing; not shadowbane 2. While shadowbane had some good stuff to it, it also had a lot of baggage.

Aaaaaand a community full of trashcan bottom dwelling trolls like me.  It’s not exactly the pinnacle of gaming. 

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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34 minutes ago, Helix said:

 

Crowfall is its own thing; not shadowbane 2. While shadowbane had some good stuff to it, it also had a lot of baggage.

This is the point where you just stop defending something...

(2 players online last night, I was one of them..neato)

Wrain

 

 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Wrain said:

This is the point where you just stop defending something...

(2 players online last night, I was one of them..neato)

Wrain

 

 

 

 

Bro how would you fix it.  Be specific. 

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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17 hours ago, mandalore said:

Bro how would you fix it.  Be specific. 

I critiqued this YEARS ago and the train just kept moving forward.  I'll take the bait though and go ahead and relist my thoughts in a very short condensed version.

1.  Shadowbane's main "draw" was from the START.  You felt unique and an individual character ATTACHMENT to the toon you were creating.  My friend I would study for HOURS designing new templates and ideas thru the tools available.  fighter/rogue/rogue.. the classes WITHIN themselves were customizable. Starting runes, penalities, limited discipline slots, more classes/combos and chances to BREAK your character.

2. The LORE was very VERY well written and the music was DIRECTLY written for it.  Instead we have "player" named goofy landmarks/zones. Honestly I don't know how to even stop that at this point due to us "backers" having rights on it.  (and I HATE holding a key down to "zone/port" into a map...why? why not just have a window pop...its just once again BORING and feels needless/work.  (kinda like acorns and crap in my bag all day..just more JUNK to remove..aka WORK)

3. The bio's and land made you feel "a home" (once again, toon ownership feelings).  You needed either people or a gate rune to get around.  This kept a sense of "pride/ownership" especially when guilded and in your hot zone to protect and keep farming locations to YOUR GUILD/ZONE/PEOPLE.

4. The mobs in SB would swarm and respawn instantly thus creating FUN!  Parking with friends in the center and camping for "rune/gear" drops while having a tracker was exciting!!!  We had fun because the mobs were generating income/gear/rares- WHILE KNOWING IT WAS DRAWING PVP TO US.  Let me repeat this, THE MOBS WERE ONLY THERE TO KEEP US BUSY KNOWING PVP "WAS" EVENTUALLY GOING TO HAPPEN.  Honestly who plays PvP games for "realistic mob dynamics"??? We play to make a name for ourselves.  Whether its to be a holy crusader helping people or just an absolute jerk that everyone on the server wants to hunt down and destroy your guild/community.

5. The disciplines were once again, UNIQUE and gave your toon a "custom" feel.  Not here, we get cookie cutter ideas/builds and honestly I cant even believe the first prototype of "stats" were even used. (they honesty did NOTHING...NOTHING!!!)  (and a side note once again..I'm a barbarian BUT I CANT EVEN USE A 2H SWORD??? WHAT IS THIS!!!!)

6. City buildings that had rolling vendors, risk of loss, people ganking IN YOUR HOME LAND. Pure disrespect, but once again it caused a REASON to pvp and political clashing.

 

******AND WHAT HAS CROWFALL DONE???******

 

1. REMOVED THE STARTING RUNES, and the ability to break our characters.  Regulated OUR playstyle as if we need our hands held.  Why the H cant I just make what I want even if its so beyond gimp people NOTICE it. Aka, I'm the fastest runner on the server.  Or maybe i'm all STR and my character is slower than all hell, but man I take up half the screen because i'm HUGE.  Once again, its REMOVED a sense of pride/ownership/individality.

2. THERE IS NO LORE!!! NONE!  We have some kinda "hunger" that is pointless, doesn't look cool, doesn't feel cool...its BORING!

3. What bios/landscape? Realm/land pride?  Please, it does NOT take a long time to condense maps or worlds.  Why is everything ANNOYING to get around? Big chasms, all trees, stupid spider camps and junk drop loot.  ZERO reason to hold a farming mob zone or even make sense of ANY pvp points.  Its just futile and boring.  Its like were chasing POINTS for a busted 3 realm idea that shouldn't even exist.  It should be RACIAL if anything.

4. THE MOBS ARE BORING, THE HUNTING SPOTS SUCK!!!  Spread out as if someone is setting up a checkers board and look childish.  Literally its like they are just spaced out in fashion.  Have the empty buildings have war horn go off, and we get swarmed.  Let us TRASH mob swarms and get chased out. (like we did with grobolds!)  I like some of the art, but man its sooo "nintendo".  This is NOT where pvp games are headed.  (even WoW now has made everything so much darker as you go further thru the maps)

5. These discplines ARE ONCE AGAIN BORING!!!  No turning into a rat, no flying, no summoning, no "stellar" abilities. They dont even graphically look cool!  They are all hex styled, uncolored, no feeling of joy of holding one...In Shadowbane the runes were all polished out and man...Staring at them in your bank/inv/vault...I used to line them up in order of value.  These disciplines are just more obnoxious boring abilities.  Why cant I fly?  Why cant I use different weapontypes/builds on MY toon.

6. The city building...I dont think this can be fixed. The stuff I've listed for the past 2 years is nothing major.  But as for the cities...I think thats a major coding change.  Unfortunate because the time put INTO ALL THIS LAME CRAFTING COULD HAVE BEEN PUT INTO CITIES AND VENDOR SLOTS/ROLLING 24/7. :(

 

That's my 2 cents.  Somehow Crowfall thinks its a good idea to "regulate" what were doing with OUR toons.  Imagine being a brand new player on day 1 here at release...Seeing this big swirly circle "world" screen.  Honestly, you think this makes sense to a new player?  It should be ONE world!!! ONE you sign into.  Then after you reach a certain level, it pops up letting you know "you have now reached the ability to go to bla bla bla." Then find the gatekeeper and CHOOSE to leave to the "REAL" pvp/world of your choice.

Or how about when you KNEW you had to JUNK your toon (necromancy) and start OVER CUZ OF A FREAKING BODY/stats??? REALLY? YOU THINK THIS MADE PEOPLE WANT TO LVL ALL OVER AGAIN???  This was PUNISHMENT.  absolute PUNISHMENT.

That's my rant.  As you can tell yes I get heated over this.  And I really shouldn't .  I just hate knowing I put money up and the design of this stuff is sooooo far left field I cant tell what the end game plan even is.  You want my honest opinion?  I think the game should SHUT-DOWN for the next 6 months and completely REVAMP from the core up.  I feel it would actually SAVE MONEY and give this game a second chance.  Because look, its all over forums/youtube already...I'm not trying to be a jerk here, i'm giving 100% honest feedback.  But if a final fantasy XIV needs to be instituted to "SAVE CROWFALL" I'm all for it.  I WANT the game and devs to MAKE A LIVING, but so far the #'s are NOT lying.

 

Wrain

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To Points 1 & 5:

1. Shadowbane has been the only game that made me feel so connected to my character, and like I was creating a digital avatar from a pen and paper game. 

5. Where are the morph runes, like the wearbear, wererat etc.  Those were so cool in SB.  I was playing around this week and realized that some of the ranger profression builds are copycats of the cleric builds.  While all builds have a dps, cc or defense line, these were blantant similar playstyles.  The ability in SB to use 1 point for skill (not just a point to get the skill, but an actual point to increase the power of the skill) was amazing, and gave so much flexibility to players.

SB had problems, but it was also very innovative in a lot of ways; I've never see another game give us the text command power to limit our powers.  This was useful when early in release you didn't want to kill a player, but keep them permastunned, while dealing with a second player.  How about being able to put your bound hot keys anywhere on the screen, because you could drag and drop skills anywhere, then assign a hotkey.  I spent hours farming for 40+ runes (those that played will know how usefule they were), just to get a toon to that sweet spot.  The biggest draw was owning a city, that you could design/build/defend; that complete cycle is missing here in CF.

Crowfall is not SB, and has too much outside influence from other talented creative minds.  I'm not saying it won't be a fun game, but this is not SB 2.0.

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15 hours ago, Wrain said:

--stuff--

 

Wrain

I feel like a lot of the things that made shadowbane good were because back then developers didn't really know what they were doing with these games unlike now. There was no inhibition when it came to the vision of the game. I remember JTodd talking about how they were flying by the seat of their pants when they were making shadowbane, it was like the spaghetti method of developing these types of games back then. Shadowbane was an example of wild and untamed ideas and development. Crowfall is way more refined and tame in comparison (for good and for worse). In contrast with shadowbane, crowfall is way more balanced, but the unfortunate trade off is that it's more boring. Free form base building is great, but it's hard to balance. It doesn't surprise me it doesn't exist in the game, the developers just don't want to deal with it.

The whole "you can ruin your character and you're forced to reroll" aspect of games is for the most part dead and gone because it's a terrible design decision. As a developer you don't want your players to anguish because they made a bad decision and are forced back into a grind. Also you don't want want players making good decisions at one moment in time, only to have to regret them and start over when the meta changes. Hence respecs. Even ultima online knew better than to lock players into horrible character decisions.

Personally my biggest gripe with crowfall is the general world design. I feel like they really painted themselves into a corner with having to make everything procedural generated rather than having a single hand crafted world with random generated objectives / resource nodes. Hand crafted worlds are, IMO, way more interesting. Crowfall's world in general feels sterile.

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14 hours ago, Wrain said:

I critiqued this YEARS ago and the train just kept moving forward.  I'll take the bait though and go ahead and relist my thoughts in a very short condensed version.

1.  Shadowbane's main "draw" was from the START.  You felt unique and an individual character ATTACHMENT to the toon you were creating.  My friend I would study for HOURS designing new templates and ideas thru the tools available.  fighter/rogue/rogue.. the classes WITHIN themselves were customizable. Starting runes, penalities, limited discipline slots, more classes/combos and chances to BREAK your character.

2. The LORE was very VERY well written and the music was DIRECTLY written for it.  Instead we have "player" named goofy landmarks/zones. Honestly I don't know how to even stop that at this point due to us "backers" having rights on it.  (and I HATE holding a key down to "zone/port" into a map...why? why not just have a window pop...its just once again BORING and feels needless/work.  (kinda like acorns and crap in my bag all day..just more JUNK to remove..aka WORK)

3. The bio's and land made you feel "a home" (once again, toon ownership feelings).  You needed either people or a gate rune to get around.  This kept a sense of "pride/ownership" especially when guilded and in your hot zone to protect and keep farming locations to YOUR GUILD/ZONE/PEOPLE.

4. The mobs in SB would swarm and respawn instantly thus creating FUN!  Parking with friends in the center and camping for "rune/gear" drops while having a tracker was exciting!!!  We had fun because the mobs were generating income/gear/rares- WHILE KNOWING IT WAS DRAWING PVP TO US.  Let me repeat this, THE MOBS WERE ONLY THERE TO KEEP US BUSY KNOWING PVP "WAS" EVENTUALLY GOING TO HAPPEN.  Honestly who plays PvP games for "realistic mob dynamics"??? We play to make a name for ourselves.  Whether its to be a holy crusader helping people or just an absolute jerk that everyone on the server wants to hunt down and destroy your guild/community.

5. The disciplines were once again, UNIQUE and gave your toon a "custom" feel.  Not here, we get cookie cutter ideas/builds and honestly I cant even believe the first prototype of "stats" were even used. (they honesty did NOTHING...NOTHING!!!)  (and a side note once again..I'm a barbarian BUT I CANT EVEN USE A 2H SWORD??? WHAT IS THIS!!!!)

6. City buildings that had rolling vendors, risk of loss, people ganking IN YOUR HOME LAND. Pure disrespect, but once again it caused a REASON to pvp and political clashing.

 

1. REMOVED THE STARTING RUNES, and the ability to break our characters.  Regulated OUR playstyle as if we need our hands held.  Why the H cant I just make what I want even if its so beyond gimp people NOTICE it. Aka, I'm the fastest runner on the server.  Or maybe i'm all STR and my character is slower than all hell, but man I take up half the screen because i'm HUGE.  Once again, its REMOVED a sense of pride/ownership/individality.

2. THERE IS NO LORE!!! NONE!  We have some kinda "hunger" that is pointless, doesn't look cool, doesn't feel cool...its BORING!

3. What bios/landscape? Realm/land pride?  Please, it does NOT take a long time to condense maps or worlds.  Why is everything ANNOYING to get around? Big chasms, all trees, stupid spider camps and junk drop loot.  ZERO reason to hold a farming mob zone or even make sense of ANY pvp points.  Its just futile and boring.  Its like were chasing POINTS for a busted 3 realm idea that shouldn't even exist.  It should be RACIAL if anything.

4. THE MOBS ARE BORING, THE HUNTING SPOTS SUCK!!!  Spread out as if someone is setting up a checkers board and look childish.  Literally its like they are just spaced out in fashion.  Have the empty buildings have war horn go off, and we get swarmed.  Let us TRASH mob swarms and get chased out. (like we did with grobolds!)  I like some of the art, but man its sooo "nintendo".  This is NOT where pvp games are headed.  (even WoW now has made everything so much darker as you go further thru the maps)

5. These discplines ARE ONCE AGAIN BORING!!!  No turning into a rat, no flying, no summoning, no "stellar" abilities. They dont even graphically look cool!  They are all hex styled, uncolored, no feeling of joy of holding one...In Shadowbane the runes were all polished out and man...Staring at them in your bank/inv/vault...I used to line them up in order of value.  These disciplines are just more obnoxious boring abilities.  Why cant I fly?  Why cant I use different weapontypes/builds on MY toon.

6. The city building...I dont think this can be fixed. The stuff I've listed for the past 2 years is nothing major.  But as for the cities...I think thats a major coding change.  Unfortunate because the time put INTO ALL THIS LAME CRAFTING COULD HAVE BEEN PUT INTO CITIES AND VENDOR SLOTS/ROLLING 24/7. :(

 

That's my 2 cents.  Somehow Crowfall thinks its a good idea to "regulate" what were doing with OUR toons.  Imagine being a brand new player on day 1 here at release...Seeing this big swirly circle "world" screen.  Honestly, you think this makes sense to a new player?  It should be ONE world!!! ONE you sign into.  Then after you reach a certain level, it pops up letting you know "you have now reached the ability to go to bla bla bla." Then find the gatekeeper and CHOOSE to leave to the "REAL" pvp/world of your choice.

Or how about when you KNEW you had to JUNK your toon (necromancy) and start OVER CUZ OF A FREAKING BODY/stats??? REALLY? YOU THINK THIS MADE PEOPLE WANT TO LVL ALL OVER AGAIN???  This was PUNISHMENT.  absolute PUNISHMENT.

That's my rant.  As you can tell yes I get heated over this.  And I really shouldn't .  I just hate knowing I put money up and the design of this stuff is sooooo far left field I cant tell what the end game plan even is.  You want my honest opinion?  I think the game should SHUT-DOWN for the next 6 months and completely REVAMP from the core up.  I feel it would actually SAVE MONEY and give this game a second chance.  Because look, its all over forums/youtube already...I'm not trying to be a jerk here, i'm giving 100% honest feedback.  But if a final fantasy XIV needs to be instituted to "SAVE CROWFALL" I'm all for it.  I WANT the game and devs to MAKE A LIVING, but so far the #'s are NOT lying.

 

Wrain

@ACE-Tiggs @ace-tyrant Please read. MANY of the early backers feel like this. No, you don't have to make CrowFall an SB2, but SOME of that stuff will help a bunch with player retention.

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3 hours ago, Helix said:

Personally my biggest gripe with crowfall is the general world design. I feel like they really painted themselves into a corner with having to make everything procedural generated rather than having a single hand crafted world with random generated objectives / resource nodes. Hand crafted worlds are, IMO, way more interesting. Crowfall's world in general feels sterile.

I have to defend ACE here. Originally there was to be freebuilding and possibly voxel destruction. Both of these would have made handcrafted campaign maps quite difficult due to the other design goal of having multiple campaigns running. Thats a crapton of handcrafted maps. I do agree that the world generator needs more tuning and content to feel more alive.

One thing I Would love to see is the ability for players to have parcel building dev tools to create wonderous EK's. Give me the tools for creation and customization and I will pay for it, I am sure I am not alone in this. The ability to freely create in game world ship has sailed. #MakeEKsGreatAgain

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1 hour ago, mystafyi said:

Both of these would have made handcrafted campaign maps quite difficult due to the other design goal of having multiple campaigns running. Thats a crapton of handcrafted maps. I do agree that the world generator needs more tuning and content to feel more alive.

Just to elaborate, I didn't mean multiple handcrafted maps. Basically if they took the time to flesh out a single world map/design, and simply used that for all the campaigns (but with resources and objectives randomly generated; maybe stronghold claims as well), I would've preferred that over the uniquely mediocre campaign parcels/worlds we have now. Eventually they might've actually been able to create additional world maps later down the line, but having a great, well designed and focused world with interesting locales to fight at would've been a personal preference. The down side being possibility the inability to scale the world, so I'm sure that was one of the reasons we got what we did.

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On 2/14/2021 at 1:49 PM, McTan said:

At least they've finally put in binding, that's a start.

Nice add for 6.4, very interested to see the impact of bind to keep on sieges when we get a Dregs.

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Shadowbane, as great as it was...is dead as dead. True, one could argue. WTF are these guys custard doing (ACE for those that are slow to catch on)... and to that.....touché...

IF ACE got their collective heads out of their asses, or at least honestly admmittted they cannot deliver certain things, or told custarders to pound sand.. then, amen and holy hand grenade of mother custard Antioch! I could move on.... but alas... I, Like many others, wait around and pine away for what this game could be.

Imagine "If"they made a campaign huge and left it up for 3 months. Well, some <cough, entrenched, cough> would not like it. custard 'em ...Build it and they (the people that will make this game survice) will come.

Keys to success, ....Large maps... stupid large. Max free beta key push.. let the "little (or new) people" get a piece of the pie. Free building placement is key. This game, by it's developers shortsightedness, has set the bar too low and narrow. Their design, despite all the prior hogwash, has skewed itself right toward "Uncle Bob", and listening to an echo chamber of elites that would strangle this game for their own benefit is not a pathway forward.

Massive free beta period push to include:

Free building
Ginormous Mapset
90 day campaign for existence of beta key handout...

You are welcome.

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4 minutes ago, Drexl_Spivey said:

Shadowbane, as great as it was...is dead as dead. True, one could argue. WTF are these guys custard doing (ACE for those that are slow to catch on)... and to that.....touché...

IF ACE got their collective heads out of their asses, or at least honestly admmittted they cannot deliver certain things, or told custarders to pound sand.. then, amen and holy hand grenade of mother custard Antioch! I could move on.... but alas... I, Like many others, wait around and pine away for what this game could be.

Imagine "If"they made a campaign huge and left it up for 3 months. Well, some <cough, entrenched, cough> would not like it. custard 'em ...Build it and they (the people that will make this game survice) will come.

Keys to success, ....Large maps... stupid large. Max free beta key push.. let the "little (or new) people" get a piece of the pie. Free building placement is key. This game, by it's developers shortsightedness, has set the bar too low and narrow. Their design, despite all the prior hogwash, has skewed itself right toward "Uncle Bob", and listening to an echo chamber of elites that would strangle this game for their own benefit is not a pathway forward.

Massive free beta period push to include:

Free building
Ginormous Mapset
90 day campaign for existence of beta key handout...

You are welcome.

I don't think free building is on the table for launch. 

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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