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Please get rid of gathering protection, carebear mechanic


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4 minutes ago, Alot said:

In Crowfall, some classes can have their basic kit crafted by three characters (not necessarily different crafters). I'm not sure what the top end of this is off-hand as there have been recent changes to recipes. Jewelry adds another. 

It would be more helpful for me to give you raw numbers? I'm still guessing here, no one actually has this data. There are probably less than 50 people out of a total player base in the millions that have fully maxed out crafters. There are probably in the low tens of thousands that have at least one tree maxed, which would be one third of the armor types for each armor slot, and more for weapons.  So I guess somewhere in that range, depending on how you define effectively. 

For Cf you need basically every type of crafter for most chars and vessels are their own monster.  Vessels are arguably the biggest single boost.  

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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Today a developer confirmed in a chat that the loot drop chances are not going into dregs, despite the patch notes. If there will be no loot drop, there has to be gathering drop. If not, there is

I would be happy with either a max of 20% on a legendary or a complete removal, the current mechanic negates the need for harvesters to care about their haul on any meaningful level. It also negates t

I'm a gatherer and i approve this message <3

1 minute ago, mandalore said:

For Cf you need basically every type of crafter for most chars and vessels are their own monster.  Vessels are arguably the biggest single boost.  

Have you looked at the recipe changes in 6.4? 

Vessels are not lootable, so that is a moot point. 

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3 minutes ago, Alot said:

Have you looked at the recipe changes in 6.4? 

Vessels are not lootable, so that is a moot point. 

Don’t be obtuse to further your point.  Clearly my implication was they require many hands to make.  Something Albion didn’t have.  
 

As for the recipe changes I don’t think they are enough.  I’ve been stomping my feet and bitching on the dev boards and here since crafting inception about how they are merely complex for the sake of complexity.  This fantasy that a large number of people are going to be dedicated crafters first and foremost is a fallacy IMO.  They are creating a niche that doesn’t exist in the community.  I’ve long advocated for crafting and harvesting requirements be lowered so PvP’s can participate in the loop.  
 

I have mixed feelings about harvesters and full inventory loot and equipped loot.  One one hand, custard em.  On the other how many times will they lose everything before they simply play something else.  They’ve made it so harvesters can fight back (they used to not be able to).  I’m SB we would farm camps and people would go afk.  It wasn’t active harvesting like CF is though.  Imagine spending an hour hitting rocks and then losing it all to some poorly made dergs talking bandit/group of bandits.  Now do that 15 times.  Why bother is the question I ask myself.  
 

The CF PvP loop falls apart when harvesters can’t harvest but there’s little to no protection for them.  I think that’s a failure on CF design.  Is it a siege game designed for large scale fights to be dragged out over a campaign.  Is it a small scale skirmish game with lots of small fights that are just fights for the sake of fights. They both need different things to survive and function.  Right now CF is trying to make two different games imo.  

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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On 2/15/2021 at 5:30 AM, veeshan said:

I think it should be 
White =5%
Green = 10%
Blue = 15%
purple = 20%
Orange = 25%

Could double those values if you wanted however the maximum amount of resources you should keep is 50% you should never be able to protect more than 50%

Some protection i see is fine since the harvester feel like he didnt waste his time but there need 23 be reason to kill them aswell and be rewarded doing so.

I harvest just as much as i pvp and i can tell u 100% protection is dumb, im guessing your planning on having a dial on it but atm it easier to see if it work with it being 100% than coding it to be 50%

Personally I think the above can work if the dials are correct. 

Each campaign should have a configuration on how much is protected by rune type, this could be done with runes have values of 
White =105%
Green = 110%
Blue = 115%
purple =120%
Orange = 125%
Then when they load up dregs. it gets a configuration of -100% protection. 

The reason for that approach, is that the protection on runes won't have to change.  Want a world where protection is 45-50-55-60-65, the set up the campaign with -60% instead of -100%. 

Want a campaign with zero protection, set it to -300% just in case other things have come along to buff that stat.

That model would make it a dial, that can be adjusted by campaign, because be honest,  there is going to be a very wide range of preferences in how much risk/reward is actually right. 
 

It's also important to note that 100% protection only applies to the things related to the specific rune's harvesting items.  Mats, Gem/minerals, tools and dropped runes.  It will not protect your gold, dust, food and anything else you may have picked up along the way. 

Those are still fair game. 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
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Why not simply going the other way arround? 

Make basic ones having more lootprotection of the ressource (maybe 50-60%) and decrease it by ~10% with every upgrade. You get a certain risk vs reward system. Better ressource gain by better quality means more risk in loosing more ressources. 

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2 hours ago, mandalore said:

Don’t be obtuse to further your point.  Clearly my implication was they require many hands to make.  Something Albion didn’t have.  
 

As for the recipe changes I don’t think they are enough.  I’ve been stomping my feet and bitching on the dev boards and here since crafting inception about how they are merely complex for the sake of complexity.  This fantasy that a large number of people are going to be dedicated crafters first and foremost is a fallacy IMO.  They are creating a niche that doesn’t exist in the community.  I’ve long advocated for crafting and harvesting requirements be lowered so PvP’s can participate in the loop.  
 

I have mixed feelings about harvesters and full inventory loot and equipped loot.  One one hand, custard em.  On the other how many times will they lose everything before they simply play something else.  They’ve made it so harvesters can fight back (they used to not be able to).  I’m SB we would farm camps and people would go afk.  It wasn’t active harvesting like CF is though.  Imagine spending an hour hitting rocks and then losing it all to some poorly made dergs talking bandit/group of bandits.  Now do that 15 times.  Why bother is the question I ask myself.  
 

The CF PvP loop falls apart when harvesters can’t harvest but there’s little to no protection for them.  I think that’s a failure on CF design.  Is it a siege game designed for large scale fights to be dragged out over a campaign.  Is it a small scale skirmish game with lots of small fights that are just fights for the sake of fights. They both need different things to survive and function.  Right now CF is trying to make two different games imo.  

CF is trying to make two very different games cause JTood came from SB and Gordon came from SWG. Their ideas haven't been blended together very well yet. Will they be blended? Too soon to tell.

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6 hours ago, MacDeath said:

CF is trying to make two very different games cause JTood came from SB and Gordon came from SWG. Their ideas haven't been blended together very well yet. Will they be blended? Too soon to tell.

Strangely enough, both those games had massive failures. Gordon had the swg:nge debacle that some could claim was by gordons direct actions and sb did dry up and close. 

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13 hours ago, mandalore said:

I have mixed feelings about harvesters and full inventory loot and equipped loot.  One one hand, custard em.  On the other how many times will they lose everything before they simply play something else.  They’ve made it so harvesters can fight back (they used to not be able to).  I’m SB we would farm camps and people would go afk.  It wasn’t active harvesting like CF is though.  Imagine spending an hour hitting rocks and then losing it all to some poorly made dergs talking bandit/group of bandits.  Now do that 15 times.  Why bother is the question I ask myself.

It's okay for you to have mixed feelings, but ArtCraft needs to figure out what kind of game they're making. A low budget theme park will appeal to be a very different audience than a full-loot (or partial loot), niche PvP MMO. 

I do think your pity for harvesters is unfounded and misplaced. On the question of "why bother?", most people gather either because it's relaxing and they enjoy it, they're trying to accomplish a goal, or doing something in downtime while waiting for PvP. If you remove (or significantly reduce) the incentive for PvP around gathering activity, you've removed one of the three main reasons to gather. 

You keep saying that gatherers will leave the game if they get ganked and lose mats, but Albion refutes this claim. Gathering in Albion is many, many times more punishing than any rule set floated for Crowfall. Yet there are hundreds of thousands of people that choose to gather in Albion despite the risks, alternative sources of income, and functional marketplaces that completely negate the need for gathering. SBI has also repeatedly nerfed gathering and this hasn't removed it as a common activity.

Full or partial gear loot benefits the harvester as well as the ganker, because then both parties are risking something, and both can be rewarded for PvP. If there is no gear drop, but there is loot drop, only the harvester is risking, and only the ganker can be rewarded. The creates a toxic scenario where gankers are incentivized to constantly harass harvesters at little to no risk of their own due to the potential reward. 

14 hours ago, mandalore said:

Imagine spending an hour hitting rocks and then losing it all to some poorly made dergs talking bandit/group of bandits.

This is precisely what makes gathering exciting. PvP is coming to you. There is risk.

Also, if you're spending an hour hitting rocks without banking, you're probably doing something wrong. It's generally a good idea to bank after every potion/food. 

14 hours ago, mandalore said:

This fantasy that a large number of people are going to be dedicated crafters first and foremost is a fallacy IMO.  They are creating a niche that doesn’t exist in the community.  I’ve long advocated for crafting and harvesting requirements be lowered so PvP’s can participate in the loop.  

I disagree. Every game, including full-loot PvP games, have people who want to participate and contribute but don't enjoy or aren't good at PvP. Some people also really enjoy the role of logistics and crafting, and as you've said previously, and as is evidenced by Albion, these are absolutely integral roles for a competitive guild. You have to be able to gear your people, and ideally as efficiently as possible. 

14 hours ago, mandalore said:

The CF PvP loop falls apart when harvesters can’t harvest but there’s little to no protection for them.

The entire point of harvesting POIs is to encourage conflict over resources. A guild will eventually need to defend POIs to retain control of them, otherwise their harvesters will be pushed off. Similar to how wartribes work currently, and this has been some of the best small-scale PvP Crowfall has seen. 

14 hours ago, mandalore said:

I think that’s a failure on CF design.  Is it a siege game designed for large scale fights to be dragged out over a campaign.  Is it a small scale skirmish game with lots of small fights that are just fights for the sake of fights. They both need different things to survive and function.  Right now CF is trying to make two different games imo.  

How are these mutually exclusive? It seems like both exist currently, and there would be even less content if you removed one. 

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5 hours ago, Alot said:

 

This is precisely what makes gathering exciting. PvP is coming to you. There is risk.

 

How are these mutually exclusive? It seems like both exist currently, and there would be even less content if you removed one. 

1.  It’s not a risk for the 1v1 spec ganker or the roaming squad jumping people.  
 

2.  It 100% should have both.  Right now they are trying to please two different masters and succeeding at neither.  Eventually they are going to have to balance one over the other.  

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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A problem with constantly PKing harvesters and stealing their inventory is that at some point they'll likely stop playing the game. Then we've lost a significant part of the player base that we need to make CF economy work.

Maybe this mechanics that prevents inventory loot during harvesting but enable it during PvP and GvG is a decent solution.

But even just getting killed repetitively during harvesting may drive them out of the game.

Edited by francis101
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A lot of people under the impression that pvpers don't gather, and that's far from the truth. There should be zero gathering protection. If gathering protection is necessary, they should full stop the game and pivot into something else.

 

At the least this should be a campaign rule set and not a discipline.

Edited by Helix
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22 minutes ago, Helix said:

A lot of people under the impression that pvpers don't gather, and that's far from the truth. There should be zero gathering protection. If gathering protection is necessary, they show full stop the game and pivot into something else.

 

At the least this should be a campaign rule set and not a discipline.

Sadly, there isnt gear loot, so hard to empathize if inventory is lootable either. Hard to justify one without the other.

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4 hours ago, mystafyi said:

Sadly, there isnt gear loot, so hard to empathize if inventory is lootable either. Hard to justify one without the other.

Nonsense.

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9 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

How so? I find it nonsense wanting only inventory full loot while keeping gear safe. 

Arguing for less looting because you want more looting is just nonsense.

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9 hours ago, francis101 said:

A problem with constantly PKing harvesters and stealing their inventory is that at some point they'll likely stop playing the game.

This claim is made a lot, but on what basis? Where is the evidence? The only data point I'm aware of personally is Albion Online, where there are hundreds of thousands of gatherers despite being significantly higher risk for them combined with an inability to fight back.

Anecdotally, I enjoy gathering, crafting, and PvP in Crowfall, and strongly favor both inventory and at least partial gear drop. If partial loot protection is absolutely necessary, I think a diminishing amount of protection as disciplines are upgraded is ideal. Having to fight over gathering spots makes me want to gather more, not less. 

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1 hour ago, Alot said:

This claim is made a lot, but on what basis? Where is the evidence? The only data point I'm aware of personally is Albion Online, where there are hundreds of thousands of gatherers despite being significantly higher risk for them combined with an inability to fight back.

Anecdotally, I enjoy gathering, crafting, and PvP in Crowfall, and strongly favor both inventory and at least partial gear drop. If partial loot protection is absolutely necessary, I think a diminishing amount of protection as disciplines are upgraded is ideal. Having to fight over gathering spots makes me want to gather more, not less. 

The basis is that getting PKed and looted is generally a negative experience, and we tend to stay away from what causes negative experiences.

 

In Albion if I'm correct there's a reputation system that penalizes players that PK in yellow and red zones. I'm interested to know the proportion of gatherers who are active in the red zone vs. black zone.

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12 minutes ago, francis101 said:

The basis is that getting PKed and looted is generally a negative experience, and we tend to stay away from what causes negative experiences.

So should all PvP be removed? It's often a negative experience for the losers.

I feel like if people have chosen to play a niche PvP MMO, they should probably be comfortable with being PKed sometimes. It's a major part of the game. 

Gathering is going to be really uneventful and boring if there is no PvP involved aside from potentially some gathering POIs.

7 minutes ago, francis101 said:

In Albion if I'm correct there's a reputation system that penalizes players that PK in yellow and red zones. I'm interested to know the proportion of gatherers who are active in the red zone vs. black zone.

I don't know what the breakdown is, but it's significantly more profitable to gather in the black zone and there are many times more black zones than red. I think the vast majority of skilled gatherers focus on black zones.

The reputation system has been nerfed pretty significantly as you can now enter Royal cities despite your reputation. Having a high reputation grants a PvP buff against flagged people in yellow/red zones, so reducing your reputation reduces that buff. You also won't be able to enter some blue or red/yellow zones (other than Royal cities) until your reputation recovers. 

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On 2/17/2021 at 12:12 PM, Alot said:

This is precisely what makes gathering exciting. PvP is coming to you.

I don't enjoy gathering because PvP is coming my way.  I want no trouble when I'm gathering.  I want my PvP over large assets, and want my gathering done in peace.  Now before you go off, realize that my experience differs from yours, and I've played full loot games in the past.  EvE has 3 different sets of space, with hi-sec being the "safest" and most strict in terms of aggression towards other ships; then there is low sec, with NPCs that respond a bit less, and the systems are more dangerous, but still with rules.  Then there is 0.0 or null space which is where anything goes, similar to the dregs.  However 0.0 space was the safest and easiest place to mine for ore.  That's the kind of mechanic I would enjoy; where the day to day activities of gathering are done in remote peace, but the fight to keep the territory under your control is done through no holds barred PvP.

One mechanic that I would gladly exchange for the 100% harvesting protection is the mechanic of tracking from SB.  Tracking would benefit both wolf and lamb.  Tracking was a disc that could be applied to numerous different builds that allowed a player to know who was in the area.  The list pulled up players near you, and could be used with an additional button/time to get a general direction a specific player was located.  You didn't know distance from you, and didn't know the direction they were moving (not directly), only that the person was in your vicinity and could be to the north.  If you were concerned that person was out hunting, you could recall instantly, or keep watching track, checking every so often to see if their position changed.  There were numerous methods to "locate" someone you had on track.  Because the various runes that gave a track option couldn't be applied to all race/classes it meant not everyhone had the ability.  The ability only gave you the name and general location, no information about race/class or level.  Track in Crowfall could be used to help with both the one looking to gank, and the one looking to harvest in peace.

On the offensive side track would be used to actually hunt people that popped up on your track.  Only have a 2 player group out hunting players?  Ok, so look for the 1-3 player harvesting groups, and skip the large 10 man group that might just beat you if you were to try and drop in for a visit.  Want to play guerilla tactics and just disrupt a large 10 man group, find them with track and keep bothering them from range.

I think a track mechanic would benefit all of us.

20 minutes ago, Alot said:

Gathering is going to be really uneventful and boring if there is no PvP involved aside from potentially some gathering POIs.

Gathering should be uneventful.  In SB the mine fights were put in after Todd had left, so he never got to experience how they shaped his game.  Mine fights were great nightly PvP in between the larger siege fights.  After the window of opportunities for mine fights were over, a lot of players turned to farming gold.  There were the occasional player looking for PvP, or players looking for rune droppers; but farming gold was a need and one you could do quietly if so desired. The trend as I watch my kids is to jump into a MOBA or Battle Royale game and get instant matchmaking; but that's not the type of game crowfall was pitched to be.  We need places to harvest in relative peace, and by peace I mean the harvester gets to choose if they want to engage in PvP or just escape.  EvEs system alerts allowed that for miners, and SBs track mechanic allowed that for farmers.

While I'm ok with days in between fights, I hope that CF can deliver nightly roams like corps would do in EvE.  I hope that there is enough PvP outside of sieges to warrant lots of players logging in.  However I also hope that harvesters/crafters can enjoy the game in a way they don't get frustrated and quit.

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11 minutes ago, Alot said:

So should all PvP be removed? It's often a negative experience for the losers.

I feel like if people have chosen to play a niche PvP MMO, they should probably be comfortable with being PKed sometimes. It's a major part of the game. 

Gathering is going to be really uneventful and boring if there is no PvP involved aside from potentially some gathering POIs.

I don't know what the breakdown is, but it's significantly more profitable to gather in the black zone and there are many times more black zones than red. I think the vast majority of skilled gatherers focus on black zones.

The reputation system has been nerfed pretty significantly as you can now enter Royal cities despite your reputation. Having a high reputation grants a PvP buff against flagged people in yellow/red zones, so reducing your reputation reduces that buff. You also won't be able to enter some blue or red/yellow zones (other than Royal cities) until your reputation recovers. 

I see a big difference in the amount of discomfort between dying while fighting another player (PvP) and dying unprepared while gathering (PK) and losing all the resources harvested in the last hour or so. The former still feels negative but a lot less than the latter. ACE is probably trying to find a way to make PvP (and PKing) enjoyable without inflicting a miserable experience to the gatherers. A gathering protection does not entirely negate the fun of the PKer.

 

The gathering protection does not remove the PvP aspect of the gathering afaik.

 

Thanks for the info about the zones and reputation system!

 

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