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Please get rid of gathering protection, carebear mechanic


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8 hours ago, Teufel said:

Gathering should be uneventful.

Totally disagree on that one. Safe farming is ultra-boring. The only thing that makes gathering fun in Crowfall is playing King-of-the-Hill over gathering locations.

Edited by Jah

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Today a developer confirmed in a chat that the loot drop chances are not going into dregs, despite the patch notes. If there will be no loot drop, there has to be gathering drop. If not, there is

I would be happy with either a max of 20% on a legendary or a complete removal, the current mechanic negates the need for harvesters to care about their haul on any meaningful level. It also negates t

I'm a gatherer and i approve this message <3

35 minutes ago, Jah said:

Totally disagree on that one. Safe farming is ultra-boring. The only thing that makes gathering fun in Crowfall is the playing King-of-the-Hill over gathering locations.

Edit: I had to re-read my own post, and I realized that I didn't explain uneventful until later in my post.  I would like to see the harvester have a choice if they want to engage in the PvP, or if they want to recall back to the temple.  Harvesters are going to be constantly presented with options (i.e. other guilds/factions looking to kill them), but it should be the harvester that ultimately determines if his time by fighting and potentially winning is more valuable than the time to just recall back.

It's fine to agree to disagree, we just have different views on the type of PvP we enjoy.  I like my micro experiences to be pretty non-eventful.  I don't gather because it's fun, and would prefer to get free resources like they offer on test. 😁

Harvesting is simply done because I have nothing to craft with unless I harvest.  If we look at players as the four types of gamers: Achievers, Socializers, Explorers and Killers; I fall under the achiever with a little killer.  I need a reason to PvP, and that reason for me is large asset destruction.  The motivations behind a player are a big reason certain players on the boards discuss for their position.  Without addressing all 4 of the types of gamers though, I don't think CF will be successful. 

I harvest to craft, I craft to build a character, I have a character to PvP mainly for the siege aspect.  For me, the WT gear drops are a horrible idea, but for a player like Alot, they may be great because it gets him into the action quicker.   If WT gear drops persist as they are, I have to really question why we even have crafting and harvesting in the game.  If PvP were the only thing in CF, then why wast time crafting?  For me character development is just as important as the actual PvP.  In Shadowbane I farmed gold night on end because it helped the guild, but it also allowed me to try and get the +40 runes, which furthered whatever character build I was working on. 

It gets complicated because as I enjoy the large fights of sieges, I also know that to be good at large scale, you have to work together in small scale.  It's not that I dislike solo or small scale PvP, it's just not my "go to" for fun in a game.  Because I'm an achiever I want to take the steps necessary to achieve victory in the large scale, which means going through every step along the way (harvesting, crafting, character development, solo PvP, small scale PvP).  I like the logistical game side of caravans, but running pigs is not fun.  There are lots of activities we do in each game we play that some call a grind, just so we can get to those few moments we do enjoy.  I know that I can't be solo in this game, but at some point I also don't see why some solo activities can't exist like harvesting and crafting, and why those activities can't be PvP free.

I want the dregs, but I view it from a top down instead of a bottom up approach.  The dregs were supposed to be about letting a guild design/build/defend cities, like in SB.  The free form PvP that happens in the dregs to me is a by product of the free form asset owning of a city.

Everyone needs to remember that chess is a PvP game.

Edited by Teufel

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14 minutes ago, Teufel said:

I would like to see the harvester have a choice if they want to engage in the PvP

It seems that this choice is made by gathering in Dregs. Infected is the safe option. 

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7 hours ago, francis101 said:

A gathering protection does not entirely negate the fun of the PKer.

 

The gathering protection does not remove the PvP aspect of the gathering afaik.

Its obvious that for some it does ruin PvP, just like having their gear loot drop ruins their PvP... amusing.

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Gathering as everything should require effort to get the good stuff.

Rank 10 should be on special places, places that require either protection or amazing escaping skills to harverst at.

If you wanna just chill and harverst you should be able to, just shouldnt be hitting rank 10 nodes that are just outside your keep gate.

This is one of these things you gotta tie to other systems. Id like it to have some thought and effort on gathering to keep things interesting.

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9 hours ago, Alot said:

It seems that this choice is made by gathering in Dregs. Infected is the safe option. 

This is a fair tradeoff I think. 90% of important farming is most efficient to do in infected anyhow.

Infected is probably still too good

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I'm the gatherer and the crafter. And I agree that resource protection should be removed. There was an idea made by DEVELOPERS themselves to add additional safe backpack for harvesters. So THAT would have been a nice mechanics. For example, additional and special 9 inventory slots which are not lost when you die. It brings same safe zone for a part of your inventory and brings a hard choice.

At the same time, if we want this to work and to move harvesters from Infected to Dregs, then it is ABSOLUTELY necessary to remove Green and Blue mats drop from INFECTED. It was said so many times that I do not know how many more times it should be said to be true. I actually love how devs changed current Infected map and rules. I'd change it a bit so that except the very last zone (SkyPoint) where all the PVP happens, there would have been NO green mats drop and lvl 3 nodes. In Skypoint, it feels like it makes sense to leave rank 4 nodes at MAX, green mats drop in Skypoint at max, as well.

Finally, the harvesting disciplines drop should be MUCH MORE rare in Infected than in the Campaigns (Dregs & Shadows).

 

The main idea: Infected should still be a TRAINING zone and must be very limited in terms of the amount and quality of resource you can get there. Otherwise, most of gatherers will continue to stay there in Infected because it is safe.

Same with Gold farming. It feels like there is so many of the superfluous Tribe Camps for gold farm outside SkyPoint that there is no point going to Skypoint for gold farm and it is more rational to farm gold in safe zones. Remove 90% of tribe camps from safe zones in Infected, leave 1 or 2 per zone, make SkyPoint the main arena for action. I would also recommend to make the density of mobs in camps to increase the reward and desire to go there to farm gold. I even do not mind if people would go to Infected to farm gold because PVP activities in Infected, in Skypoint specifically has been really fun for the last 10 days.

Tyrant: you were too tough, they gave up. (10/15/2020)

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I think it's worth taking a broader view, and trying to see some of the consequences of the interaction of the game systems. If the incentives aren't correct people will either quit doing the activity (or game entirely) or bring an overwhelming force. Then the title of this post will be: "There's Nobody to Gank (Nerf Uncle Blob)". Also, what's the desired outcome? It seems like it should be: more people, more activity, more conflict. Some things I think are worth keeping in mind:

  1. Crowfall is a game. Most people play games for entertainment.
  2. People are generally risk averse.
  3. Losing time invested is painful, doubly so for an activity primarily done for entertainment.
  4. Conflict has to be properly incentivized on both sides, or one side will choose not to engage

Gathering in Crowfall currently exists for one, maybe two purposes: progression, and socialization (guild harvesting). Crowfall doesn't do a good job of supporting the exploration-style of gameplay, like minecraft or other survival-crafting games. The balance/connection between gathering/crafting/building(EK) for solo players could be improved to support that playstyle, but currently it doesn't seem doable. The economic systems don't really work well either, so fulfilling your dreams of being a minerals magnate isn't likely to happen. On top of this, gathering isn't really fun in it's own right, it's primarily a means to an end. I wish an attempt was made to improve this, but, at it's core, gathering is still punching rocks...

Contrast this with ganking. PvP is what Crowfall does well. It is an end in itself. It, largely, doesn't need much incentive. That's not to say it needs no incentive. The incentives, though, are not aligned with the incentives of harvesting. Do I care if the gatherer I ganked just dropped 100 copper? I'm not sure I do. Ganking isn't going to be an efficient way to gather resources. It seems like what is needed is an orthogonal reward to incentivize hunting players. Realize, however, that this requires a population of sheeple, and no one wants to be sheeple.

If there's not a vibrant ecosystem of people and groups of different sizes out in the world doing various activities and coming into conflict, Crowfall is going to be a very sad, and empty world. To that end, some thoughts relevant to this specific topic:

  1. Partial inventory protection seems beneficial. It provides a floor of reward for time invested which will encourage people to be out in the world, gathering or doing other things despite the risks. Being generous to drive activity is, on the whole, better.
  2. Player loot tables might encourage more solo/small group conflict. Things like sacrifice/vendor items, some lootable equipment slots (like stat bundle trinkets or runestones), dust. Though you don't want equipment loot to slow down the game by forcing people to visit a bank every time they die. Needs reset timer to discourage exploiting. Like the first point, the goal is to tip the scale towards players making the decision to fight instead of run.
  3. High rank resource events spawning around the map (akin to chiefs) might encourage the king-of-the-hill aspect of gathering at the high end. Highly visible, timed events used to focus conflict. Possibly the only way high-rank nodes spawn.
  4. Encourage/Support more varied playstyles. This one is vague, but supporting the solo survival-crafter, and the resource magnate playstyles while encouraging them to wade into the conflict will only make the world feel more alive. I think this requires rebalancing and improving on some of the EK building, and drastically improving the economic systems.
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20 minutes ago, Pystkeebler said:
  1. Encourage/Support more varied playstyles. This one is vague, but supporting the solo survival-crafter, and the resource magnate playstyles while encouraging them to wade into the conflict will only make the world feel more alive. I think this requires rebalancing and improving on some of the EK building, and drastically improving the economic systems.

This game needs an economy/marketplace, the loss of EK's as economic hubs has created so many trickle down issues from adding dropped loot to butchering passive training. So many changes based upon the lack of players ability to gear up caused from not having marketplace. How we could go so long missing such a core element is .... I cant politely say.

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15 hours ago, Teufel said:

I don't enjoy gathering because PvP is coming my way.  I want no trouble when I'm gathering.  I want my PvP over large assets, and want my gathering done in peace.

I firmly disagree. If guilds can't harass and deny resources to their opponents, that seems just completely off to me. Gathering should not be an "opt out" of pvp, it should just be another way to get people out in the world and force those pvp interactions. Obviously the decision to fight or flee should exist, but gatherers shouldn't get a free pass when it comes to loot loss.

 

Crowfall should not just be a PoI siege simulator. We already technically have that, and look at the state of the game. You might as well call the game Borefall. If you're a gatherer and you don't want to get ganked, bring protection. When you're in a campaign world, regardless of the activity you're doing, you should be at threat of players at all times.

 

Unfortunately I think because you have "safe spaces" in the game in the form of infected and eternal kingdoms that the entire flow of the game is flawed.

Edited by Helix
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2 hours ago, Helix said:

I firmly disagree. If guilds can't harass and deny resources to their opponents, that seems just completely off to me. Gathering should not be an "opt out" of pvp, it should just be another way to get people out in the world and force those pvp interactions. Obviously the decision to fight or flee should exist, but gatherers shouldn't get a free pass when it comes to loot loss.

 

Crowfall should not just be a PoI siege simulator. We already technically have that, and look at the state of the game. You might as well call the game Borefall. If you're a gatherer and you don't want to get ganked, bring protection. When you're in a campaign world, regardless of the activity you're doing, you should be at threat of players at all times.

 

Unfortunately I think because you have "safe spaces" in the game in the form of infected and eternal kingdoms that the entire flow of the game is flawed.

It's great that we can disagree and still play the same game.  I see it more like EvE, where ratting/mining in the highest risk area of null space, was the safest space to rat/mine.  There would be nightly roams you had to be aware of, and you could get harassed by players sitting in systems cloaked.  Enemies in EvE had tools available to take away the "safe" ratting/mining; but in most cases it wasn't direct PvP conflict with the ratter/miner.  When an enemy corps wanted to invade your system and tried taking out the player owned stations, then the real PvP began in the form of siege warfare.  Ratting and mining for the most part stopped and it was now defensive actions.  Just because I rat/mine/harvest doesn't mean I'm asking for an opt out of PvP.  I don't believe the 100% safety of resources on the disc should stay.

What I do believe is we need more tools allowing all players to have more information on who/what is around them.  I've mentioned before that this game needs tracking like was found in SB.  Give each side the ability to find or evade.  The issue right now is that the harvester has very few tools to evade other players if they are being hunted.

I am all for guilds being able to interfere with other guilds activities, but not all of those activities have to be harvesting related.  We need more tools to create player engaged activities; so far I'm not impressed with the type of PvP CF is offering.

Here's how I would change the system:

  • Add a Tracking Discipline
  • Add Territory alerts for player deaths
  • Add resource assets that go directly to a guild bank (this would require an actual guild bank system)
  • Make the recall cost something other that just time

Add a tracking discipline for 1/3 of the race class combos; that's about the percentage it was in SB.  Availability to race/class could easily be adjusted if the feedback was that there were not enough or too many builds that had access to track.  Then I would add in territory alerts for territory that was owned.  We see this mechanic being used in PvE, when players attack outposts/forts etc.  Why can't we get system notification when someone from our faction/guild dies?  The game needs actual territory control, but that's out of this scope.   With track and system notifications players now have a way to process information and help them make decisions on areas they may want to go to, or keep out of.  This benefits the killer as they now are able to hone in on where the action is at, along with giving them tools to actually hunt players.  This benefits the harvesters because when too many deaths occur where they want to gather, they can make an informed decision on leaving to another area, stop gathering all together, or stay and be confident in winning a fight.

The third change is so players that don't want to harvest can still participate in PvP and gain resources at the same time.  Getting resources by killing harvesters is not always the only option.  I understand a lot of new gamers come from MOBA or BR backgrounds, and they expect CF to be similar.  CF was proposed as an RPG based on EvE, Game of Thrones and SB.  That's a lot of alphabet soup.  If killing harvesters is the only type of PvP that is consistent, then the game loop is broken.  We need other things that killer types can do, that are not associated with harvesting, but still benefit the solo playstyle or the guild.  Caravan running is one such loop, but we need more.  Mine fights in SB was also such a loop.

Last, if we add a small cost to the recall timer, then it puts more into the equation of using the recall, or sticking around with incoming danger.

The great thing is these are all knobs that ACE could implement and play around with.

 

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On 2/18/2021 at 4:00 PM, Alot said:

This claim is made a lot, but on what basis? Where is the evidence? The only data point I'm aware of personally is Albion Online, where there are hundreds of thousands of gatherers despite being significantly higher risk for them combined with an inability to fight back.

Anecdotally, I enjoy gathering, crafting, and PvP in Crowfall, and strongly favor both inventory and at least partial gear drop. If partial loot protection is absolutely necessary, I think a diminishing amount of protection as disciplines are upgraded is ideal. Having to fight over gathering spots makes me want to gather more, not less. 

Ummm, nearly empty servers, and in 6.3 the only servers that had regular harvesting were GR/Infected where inventory was safe from being looted.

Also the basic's of human psychology clearly understood and defined as risk aversion.

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52 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Ummm, nearly empty servers, and in 6.3 the only servers that had regular harvesting were GR/Infected where inventory was safe from being looted.

Also the basic's of human psychology clearly understood and defined as risk aversion.

People often point to empty servers as "evidence" to support a wide range of theories and suggestions.

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1 hour ago, Jah said:

People often point to empty servers as "evidence" to support a wide range of theories and suggestions.

I'm sure they do, but that is not a counter argument. 

I note you didn't disagree with the second point though. It's scientifically studied and can be easily understood. I remember in 6.3 seeing all sorts of your guild in infected (as was everyone else), when Dregs was open.  

That's risk aversion, and it's pretty clear it plays a major role in behavior. 

Quick question. What is FUN about harvesting exactly. Besides being a skinner box dopamine trigger from time to time.

I'm not talking about the social side of group harvesting. People can be social and have objectives and goals without that. 
 

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1 minute ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I'm sure they do, but that is not a counter argument. 

Sure it is. I'm pointing to the fact that you haven't shown that the low population is evidence that actually supports your claims. It could be caused by all sorts of things, and is almost certainly caused by multiple things. You can't just point to the low population as evidence for whatever pet theory you have.

1 minute ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I note you didn't disagree with the second point though. It's scientifically studied and can be easily understood. I remember in 6.3 seeing all sorts of your guild in infected (as was everyone else), when Dregs was open.  

That's risk aversion, and it's pretty clear it plays a major role in behavior. 

Yep, people will take the path of least resistance. This is why Infected shouldn't be a safe alternative to farming in campaigns. It kills the risk-reward dynamic for the campaigns to have a safe alternative.

1 minute ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Quick question. What is FUN about harvesting exactly. Besides being a skinner box dopamine trigger from time to time.

Playing King-of-the-Hill over harvesting locations is fun. If it were easy it would just be boring busywork. PvP conflict over farming is what makes it fun.

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I disagree with this premise.  All full gathered loot drop does is further the imbalance of off hour gathering vs prime time or have people crying for larger (and empty) maps.   There is no risk for a ganker besides some durability loss whereas the gatherer can lose significant resources that required them to grind out certain discs to be able to gather in the first place.  Not to mention they often get engaged when they deplete their stamina and likely invested into int/dex vs their class optimized stat combinations

A gatherer still loses additives, sac items, gold, consumables, dust and anything they looted at an outpost as it is right now

Mobile banking wasn't the solution, they removed it thankfully.  100% protection is not the solution either, but protection should exist to some extent.

I do hope to see the protection stay but apply only to a percent to each protected item stack.

Using Mining as an example for protection %s
White Disc: 100% Picks; 40% of each stack of Ore, Gems, Soulgems (round up so singles drop)
green Disc: 100% Picks; 45% of each stack of Ore, Gems, Soulgems
blue Disc: 100% Picks;  50% of each stack of Ore, Gems, Soulgems
epic Disc: 100% tools;  60% of each stack of Ore, Gems, Soulgems
legendary Disc: 100% tools;  70% of each stack of Ore, Gems, Soulgems

Gankers still get their free gathered crafting mats for the often imbalanced matchup, gathers will feel like their time will not completely be wasted so they will have a chance to respawn bank their left over goods, then head right back out.  Remember a harvester is giving up equipping both the Bandage and the stamina exploration discipline, so there is a sacrifice for the slot taken, aside from the time they will spend harvesting.

As a side note, i also want to see another coin added if the above tiered protection is implemented
Ethereal Dust Coin - a flat 50% dust protection.  means you give up on the other coins when you upgrade to legendary belt.

People need to understand there is more than a black and white arguement here.  You want to appeal to the broader market and entice people to play while staying true to the games focus, a PvP focused Throne war MMO.  People need their shinies and their PvP itch tickled, but people need to feel their time invested is worth it, or they will get frustrated and leave the game.   Econ cycle is huge, and necessary, driving people off who contribute to that side of the game makes your PvP boring once they all disappear, just empty maps.  Git gud doesn't suffice to keep a game populated.

I play all sides of the equation here.  I am a crafter main, i gather, and i play smaller to large scale PvP.

Edited by neven
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3 minutes ago, neven said:

White Disc: 100% Picks; 40% of each stack of Ore, Gems, Soulgems (round up so singles drop)
green Disc: 100% Picks; 45% of each stack of Ore, Gems, Soulgems
blue Disc: 100% Picks;  50% of each stack of Ore, Gems, Soulgems
epic Disc: 100% tools;  60% of each stack of Ore, Gems, Soulgems
legendary Disc: 100% tools;  70% of each stack of Ore, Gems, Soulgems

70% protection is way too much. And I'm not sure it is a good idea to make the risk go down as your rewards go up. I wouldn't scale protection off the quality of the disc.

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Numbers were just an example, you need to keep people interested in gathering, so i don't think the low end should be less.  Quality and amount of goods gathered increases the better the disc.  You will still get better and probably more mats despite the protection level being higher if you kill them.  Even if its 40, 45, 50, 55, 60 it will still be fairer than all one way, or all the other.

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45 minutes ago, neven said:

Numbers were just an example, you need to keep people interested in gathering, so i don't think the low end should be less.  Quality and amount of goods gathered increases the better the disc.  You will still get better and probably more mats despite the protection level being higher if you kill them.  Even if its 40, 45, 50, 55, 60 it will still be fairer than all one way, or all the other.

Quality and amount of goods go up with better discs. Safety doesn't need to go up as well. If anything I'd do the opposite. Less protection with better discs. Risk shouldn't go down as reward goes up.

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4 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Ummm, nearly empty servers, and in 6.3 the only servers that had regular harvesting were GR/Infected where inventory was safe from being looted.

Also the basic's of human psychology clearly understood and defined as risk aversion.

I counter that the servers are empty due to the game being in poor shape. Empty servers has been an issue for years.

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