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Here is WHY crafting is even more dead in 6.400 than it used


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Pre-story: a lot of players are really demoralized that ACE has SIGNIFICANTLY diminished the outcome of Weaponsmith, Armorsmith, Leatherwoprker, and Woodworker compared to the drop gear you can get from mobs in the Crowfall world. So here is a vivid example/comparison of the top tier crafter gear vs top tier drop gear which I've compared on the TEST server tonight. And, yes, it seems like gear and weapon crafting right now is ONLY viable when it is maxed out... and here are some good examples of this statement.

 

Here is the gear which I got from HERALD(!), which is the TOP tier mob in the Dregs campaign, which was level 35 (max level btw). This is also with comparison with the top tier gear you can just buy from the vendor in DREGS:

Top tier herald drop chest vs top tier vendor chest:

Vendor_chest_vs_drop_chest.png?width=120

You see that the difference here is VERY SLIGHT in favor of gear droppped fdrom Herald lvl 35. Remember, this is the TOP TIER gear drop from the TOP tier Herald mob in the current Dregs campaign on TEST.

Lets compare now crafted gear and TOP tier drop gear from herald. The crafter I made was not a top-top tier crafter because he did not have any jewelry or any crafter gear, and he was without any extra crafting table buffs from Campaign crafting tables. At the same time, it was a legendary vessel crafter with legendary discipline and legendary belt equipped and I used the legendary materials and legendary additives + Bon Tippers to craft this gear. So if we imagine that it would have been the TOP-TOP tier crafter with maxed EVERYTHING it would have been a 10-15% boost to the crafted items at max (and remember this would have been the absolute TOP crafter you can ever achieve in this game).

So let's take a look what we have here:

Drop_vs_All_Stats_roll_2.0.png?width=120

Drop_vs_Armor_roll_2.0.png?width=1202&he

 

as you can see in the pictures above, the difference between top crafted gear and top dropped gear in ONLY up to 4%!!!! 4. Per. Cent, Carl. Only 4 percent. This is what the top Armor crafters worth in 6.4 compared to drop gear you can easily find in the world. Here would like to add some fireworks and a lot of irony...

Also I'll provide my crafter stats here for the clarity of the experiments I've made here. No other bonuses were applied here except the Bon Tippers. You can see that my crafter is absolutely capped on Experimentation points already and the only way for improvement here is 1 to 2 experimentation points and maybe some experimentation difficulty reduction and that is it, and it is NOT that much at all.

Crafter_stats.png?width=1202&height=676

Remember that Exp points cap is 18, so I'm not yet reaching it without Dregs tables buffs. At the same time, I far overlapped the Experimentation points absolute cap of 115 with Legendary crafting discipline and legendary crafting belt only.

It seems like that the TOP-TOP tier crafter can get into 5-6% difference with the TOP-tier drop gear after all. This would be the absolute ceiling for crafted armor. Which is, to my mind, really miserable compared to the amount of effort you need to put in to achieve that 5-6% difference.

These facts just diminish all efforts or Armorsmith, Leatherworkers, and Woodworkers... basically all crafters who craft armors. Yes, it is still viable to craft gatherer's gears or crafter gears (because you can't find a dropped gatherer's and crafter's gear anywhere in the world), but why do you even bother farming for those gatherer and crafter gear if the difference is so pity?!? That is the question.

It is much more efficient and faster timewise to loot those freaking outpost chests and kill those bosses for this kind of gear than to farm hours and hour and hours to be able to craft the gear which I showed in the screenshots above. No sense to spend time and efforts to have those top-tier armor crafters at all in its current state if you can get it after 30 minutes running around in Dregs. Yes, it breaks faster but at the same time you don't need to spend so much time to level up a crafter and get the materials to craft.

SUGGESTION: please, nurf all the drop and vendor gear players could ever get in the world without crafters. Moreover, it feels like everyone (all players and economy in Crowfall overall) will just benefit if you would just entirely GET RID of any DROP gear and significantly reduce the vendor gear stats which players could buy from any vendors. This would give a HUGE boost to player driven economy and would make crafting viable at ANY POINT of the game.

 

So, let's move forward and compare top-tier drop weapons vs top-tier vendor weapons vs TOP-TIER crafted weapons (on the example of 2-handed weapons):

here is the VENDOR weapon (top-tier)

Buy_Sword.png

 

Drop weapon from Herald lvl 35 in Dregs:

Top_drop_weapon.png

Crafted 2-handed weapon (top-tier) without any weights but with legendary hunger shard inserted for the attack power:

Top_crafted_weapon.png

 

As a result, you can see that weapon-wise there is a TREMENDOUS difference between top-tier vendor weapons and top-tier dropped weapons.

At the same time, the difference between top-tier crafted weapon and top-tier drop weapon is still far away from being anyhow significant (less than the average, most of the players would likely to say). The main difference between the top-tier crafted weapon and the top-tier dropped weapon is 10 weapon damage and 100 attack power (which is basically another 10 weapon damage).

To be honest, I didn't have enough patience to find myself another Herald which could drop me a mace. But I can compare the final damage of the vendor mace and crafted mace instead and predict what would be the final damage of the top-tier drop mace based on that data.

Here is the stats of my top-tier vendor mace and final damage of its auto-attack (left click)

Vendor_weapon_itself.png?width=1202&heig

Vendor_gear_basic_attack_damage.png?widt

 

And here is the TOP-TIER crafted mace with the final auto-attack damage:

Top_crafted_weapon.png

Crafted_gear_basic_attack_damage.png?wid

Here we have an almost 30% damage difference between the top-tier vendor mace and top-tier crafted mace. Which is definitely higher than the difference between vendor gear and crafted gear but still feels a bit weak for the game which focuses on crafting and player-driven economy.

Thus, we can predict that the difference between top tier drop two-handed mace and top-tier crafted mace will be even lower... somewhere around 15% overall (at max). Which is, again, miserable, compared to the time and efforts people and the whole guilds put into maxing those weaponsmiths and armorsmiths crafters out.

Here is a screenshot of the two-handed sword which I've gotte3n from Herald:

Top_drop_weapon.png

 

 

 

To sum up:

In 6.400 version of Crowfall armorsmith and weaponsmith crafting feels absolutely miserable compared to what you can get with the little or no efforts from outpost chests and world bosses which you can STILL easily kill solo (even heralds can be killed by only 1 player with no issues at all). Moreover, whilst weaponsmith crafting would still be SOMEWHAT compatible with the drop gear, armorsmith benefits of the gear which you can craft at the end-game scenario seems incredibly miserable even compared to the vendor-purchased gear. Thus, the following crafting professions (armorsmith, weaponsmith, leatherworkers, woodworkers) took a huge hit in 6.400 Crowfall patch and simply stopped being viable at all as it is much less painfull and time consuming just to farm those gear out from the tribe mobs and chests than to level up your own crafter and to farm resources for those crafted weapons and gears. At the end of the day, whilst you farm mobs and chests, you will also get tons of gold and would be able to buy those crafted gear from those "fools" who will be brave (and stupid at the same time) enough to level up their crafters to Lego discipline + Purple belt (at least).

 

Suggestions will be the same as above: either boost the crafted gear in comparison with gear dropped from mobs and vendors, OR get rid of drop gear from mobs and outposts ENTIRELY and let the crafters lead the way in Crowfall (as it initially sipposed to be in this game). Otherwise, a lot of people who yet were inspired by crafting will leave/stop playing Crowfall (they are already leaving: CaptainSlashing, as a vivid example) and the player-driven economy loop will only plunge down even more than it is right now... Because why should I buy gear from players when I can solo-farm all the top-tier gear myself with little to no efforts?!? The difference will be so insignificant that it won't even make any difference.

 

P.S. Finally, I would like to compare the examples I showed above to the Necromance profession, for example, to show off how IMBALANCED is crafting currently is. Also, to show that with these major imbalances Crowfall is not ready for release is and that the developers team should address these issues in player-driven economy BEFORE the game goes into the RELEASED state.

Vessel_legendary_pit_fighter.png?width=1

Vessel_starter_pit_fighter.png?width=120

Here are two screenshots with the exactly the same vessels (no gear equipped) with the only difference that one vessel is a very starter vessel level 30 and another one is a Legendary vessel I crafted (through the 5 steps: Poor to Common, then to Uncommon, then to Rare, then to Epic, then to Legendary). The difference in overall stats I got is about 25-30% in average, whilst the overall difference in gear (vendor gear compared to  legendary crafted gear) is ONLY 10% overall including chest, boots, helm, and gloves (and this is plate, mail & leather will be even less). 

Moreover, whilst you can easily buy gear from the vendor and get it dropped from mobs, you would never find any vessels dropped in the world or you would never be able to buy it from the vendor (the ones you actually can buy from vendor has almost no difference to the starter ones). Same is true with the Jewelcrafting: it gives you a significant boost and you cant buy jewelries from vendors or get them dropped from any mobs in the world. It can only be crafted by players.

Thereby, you can see the huge gap and imbalance between the crafting professions in Crowfall: while some professions would bring just more pain in the butt than profit, others are absolutely necessary and viable.

Suggestion: equalize GEAR and WEAPONS professions in the game to Necromancy and Jewelcrafting. Get rid of ANY dropped gear and weapons in the world. Leave some starter gear and weapons which players can buy from vendors (but just casual ones, please), boost Crowfall economy by letting players lead the way: craft, trade, exchange, spend time improving their crafters.

 

Author's personal thoughts:

Right now, after the cancellation of all the passive training, Crowfall feels more and more casual and it feels very different from what many of the current player base has signed for initially. It feels like in the current state Crowfall became some weird combination of MOBA and MMO game which is less and less attractive with every consecutive patch to the initial player base. At the same time, the game has not found it's new niche and its new player base, as well. It feels like the development team sacrifices all the unique features of Crowfall like player-driven economy, or like survival game, or even a throne-simulator. It becomes more like the arena- moba-style game which you could jump in at any given time and still be viable from the very beginning. In this case the game will go further and further away from its niche and would most likely become another "Smite" or another "New World" which have never supposed to be either unique or more or less successful, at the end of the day. On the other hand, the games which stayed inside their unique concept like Valheim, for example, or like Mount & Blade have skyrocketed because they can offer a unique experience to their players and to offer them something special.



@ACE-Tiggs @gothamgurl @thomasblair @jtoddcoleman @Tyrant @mdonley

 

Adding this link to the second part from this test of mine + feedback:

 

Edited by SAM_BUKA

Tyrant: you were too tough, they gave up. (10/15/2020)

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Another part of this problem is that WT gear and crafted gear are directly competitive with each other, with no loop. As a caveat, there are also stats available only on WT gear that is not available

Pre-story: a lot of players are really demoralized that ACE has SIGNIFICANTLY diminished the outcome of Weaponsmith, Armorsmith, Leatherwoprker, and Woodworker compared to the drop gear you can get fr

I made sure to read this whole post before making this comment, and while I agree with you in general, there is one important difference between dropped gear and crafted gear you did not mention - the

Yeah, let crafters lead the way. There really is no player driven economy here. Most of the stuff on vendors are just people re-selling loot. Plus, the economy sucks overall because

1) there are a handful of EK's that actually have vendors with stuff - otherwise there is no marketplace unless you want to spam the chat

2) crafters don't even bother because the looted stuff is better and can fill your inventory with decent weapons/armor in 5 minutes versus collecting resources to craft 1 set of armor can take an hour or more

Then all the grind and gold required to reach the max progression for a crafter and get only a few percentage points benefit? Makes no sense to me why crafters aren't the source for weapons/armor.

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I made sure to read this whole post before making this comment, and while I agree with you in general, there is one important difference between dropped gear and crafted gear you did not mention - the durability. Crafted gear has 4 to 6 times the durability that dropped gear does, a fact which with the new realities of travel with the bind mechanics and larger linear maps, becomes significant when it comes to re-gearing, given the harsher damage to gear on usage and death. Currently there are ways around this otherwise considerable travel time, but I expect and hope these will be coded out before release.

The other issue with dropped gear of course is that it does take some time to get the weapon type you want - and you need a weapon in the first place to kill the mob, especially if it is a top tier mob (which in some cases you will not be soloing). You need to play the RNG game to get the right weapon, and even once you get a weapon of sufficient quality of the right type, it will not have the exact stats you want, which a crafted weapon of course will.

I absolutely agree there needs to be more of a difference between dropped gear and crafted gear, but I feel you are overstating the issue for the reasons mentioned above, and also overlooking how this will play out in a release-state more densely populated server. It will not simply be a case of walking up to a mob camp and pressing a button to get the exact equivalent item as can be crafted like it were some giant vending machine...

Again, and I want to stress this, I do not disagree with your overall point, and would say I do agree for the most part with your ending summation, but these details I mention do matter. The idea that you can collect the 1 or 2 weapons, and 4 armor pieces, of the correct type and stats you need to sufficiently match what a crafter would produce or provide, in 5 minutes, is absolutely 100% false. First, you need to be at the camp where the mob is located. The camp needs to be uncontested. The mob needs to be up. You need to kill it. It needs to drop the appropriate items (all 6 of them that you need), if you are not solo you need to potentially share that loot, and on Dregs before you equip it, you need to not be killed. If you can manage all of those things in 5 minutes, I will eat my hat.

So yes, there is a problem, but let us not ground this conversation in completely ridiculous statements and erroneous information. I know the absurd 5-minute number was not the OP's, but the discrepancy between 'lab-testing' theory and practical real-world experience is of a similar order of magnitude. Crafted gear still has value, if it were not so, guild crafters would not be receiving a flood of gear requests, which they are. :)

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crafted whites with white disaplines needs to be equivelent to atleast green mob dropped which it is not atm. anything crafted right now at start is worst than and mob dropped items, you then need to craft a poorly made dergs load of resources to progress to next step which is still worst than mob dropped you probaly need a epic disc and a blue belt till ur crafting is on par with blues mob droppes atm which is wrong consdidering it took me 16 wood working crafters to get 2 disc (250 resources+80 dust or so per bow)

thats 2000 resources and 640 dust baseline for 1 discipline atm. (you get like 6 wood per tree at 5 plentiful harvest so thats around 300 tree for a sin gle crafting disapline (Woodworking) you need 9 of these to upgrade to blue belt to get the cost reductions that comes to
18000 resources and 5760 dust (No rerolls) to half the cost of the crafts

27 disc after that to get legendary disc now 1000 resources and 320 dust per disc
so thats another 27000 resources and 8640 dust 

Now you at the point of crafting thing better than mob drops
So total resources required for woodworking with my current ratio

45,000 wood or (7,500 resource nodes) and 14,400 dust (no rerolls)

Not to mention gold cost 
Blue belt 29k gold and 120,000k for disc (if i can maths right)
and thats before your even at a point to where you could even consider selling your crafted items.
Upgrade the belt behond blue is also gonna be around the 300k mark to go from blue to orange.

So gold cost will be around the 500k mark to max a crafting for disc and belts ontop of the resource cost that all you can do it sell to vendor for 400g or sacrafice for XP (The xp is nice though 2500 per bow)
 

Edited by veeshan

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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@Anthrage My point was you can fill your inventory with weapons/armor of decent quality in a 5 minute pass through a WT camp. Did not say you would get everything you need to max your spec.  OP was more focused on end game crafting/loot.  I'm talking about the other end of the debate for beginner loot vs crafted. Anyone want my entry level crafted stuff with 79 dmg when they can just go loot it?

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1 hour ago, Anthrage said:

I made sure to read this whole post before making this comment, and while I agree with you in general, there is one important difference between dropped gear and crafted gear you did not mention - the durability. Crafted gear has 4 to 6 times the durability that dropped gear does, a fact which with the new realities of travel with the bind mechanics and larger linear maps, becomes significant when it comes to re-gearing, given the harsher damage to gear on usage and death. Currently there are ways around this otherwise considerable travel time, but I expect and hope these will be coded out before release.

The other issue with dropped gear of course is that it does take some time to get the weapon type you want - and you need a weapon in the first place to kill the mob, especially if it is a top tier mob (which in some cases you will not be soloing). You need to play the RNG game to get the right weapon, and even once you get a weapon of sufficient quality of the right type, it will not have the exact stats you want, which a crafted weapon of course will.

I absolutely agree there needs to be more of a difference between dropped gear and crafted gear, but I feel you are overstating the issue for the reasons mentioned above, and also overlooking how this will play out in a release-state more densely populated server. It will not simply be a case of walking up to a mob camp and pressing a button to get the exact equivalent item as can be crafted like it were some giant vending machine...

Again, and I want to stress this, I do not disagree with your overall point, and would say I do agree for the most part with your ending summation, but these details I mention do matter. The idea that you can collect the 1 or 2 weapons, and 4 armor pieces, of the correct type and stats you need to sufficiently match what a crafter would produce or provide, in 5 minutes, is absolutely 100% false. First, you need to be at the camp where the mob is located. The camp needs to be uncontested. The mob needs to be up. You need to kill it. It needs to drop the appropriate items (all 6 of them that you need), if you are not solo you need to potentially share that loot, and on Dregs before you equip it, you need to not be killed. If you can manage all of those things in 5 minutes, I will eat my hat.

So yes, there is a problem, but let us not ground this conversation in completely ridiculous statements and erroneous information. I know the absurd 5-minute number was not the OP's, but the discrepancy between 'lab-testing' theory and practical real-world experience is of a similar order of magnitude. Crafted gear still has value, if it were not so, guild crafters would not be receiving a flood of gear requests, which they are. :)

Funny thing is vendor gear isnt far behind mob dropped gear and u can get a full set for like 3k which is like 2 spawn rotations you also have the armor chests aswell in mob spawns. 

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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Just now, Hud said:

@Anthrage My point was you can fill your inventory with weapons/armor of decent quality in a 5 minute pass through a WT camp. Did not say you would get everything you need to max your spec.  OP was more focused on end game crafting/loot.  I'm talking about the other end of the debate for beginner loot vs crafted. Anyone want my entry level crafted stuff with 79 dmg when they can just go loot it?

my bows are a whole 40 dmg give or take :D mob drops are 43-48 dmg and have longer range

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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Some points to add on the crafting front.

1: Let me choose which pip row gets polished or allow me to polish each pip row independently if I choose to spend the additional dust.

2: Do something about Risk Management vs Monkeys Paw, no crafter that gets to legendary belt is going to take Risk over Monkey there is just no contest between them. Better yet Allow us to get both, move Risk down to Epic and let those who want to spent the additional 50k gold and then get to legendary have all their cake like you used to get with the passives.

3: Jewelcrafting still doesn't have a Necklace for its own craft, this boggles the mind.

4: There is no bar/plank combine that allows for AP on below epic materials, why? This would at least help make early weapons viable

 

 

Edited by Grivyn
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A decent night of pvp will decimate your WT dropped gears durability.  You will be lucky to leave without almost every piece broken.  This forces people unwilling to enter the crafting loop to hit the WT camps harder.  Also forces guild members who do not want to gather to acquire the gold needed to upgrade their crafters.

While i get it you want crafted gear to be so much better, but at the same time you need to keep progression flattened because in the end its a pvp game.  You want competitiveness, you want new people to even stand a chance.  People do a lot for a slight edge, and crafted gear is definately more than a slight edge at this point.  THat 4% number you mentioned, its a highly skewed way of misleading people. 

Here's the actual way to present differences between mismatched tiers of crafted gear (next time do tippered/polished crafted blue vs king drop blue armor)
Prioritizing Armour Rolls, the crafted has 33% more all stat and 33% more armour
Prioritizing All Stat Rolls, the crafted has 200% more all stat and 17% more armour.
this is a significant boost either way.

While i disagree with the top end want you have, i do think Armour values on the low end of crafting needs adjustment.  Green Belt + green disc should be able to make whites with armour values equivalent to low end Greens that are dropped.  Once you get a blue belt, the armour subpart should allow your greens to beat the top end blues  IF you roll on armour.

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4 hours ago, Anthrage said:

So yes, there is a problem, but let us not ground this conversation in completely ridiculous statements and erroneous information. I know the absurd 5-minute number was not the OP's, but the discrepancy between 'lab-testing' theory and practical real-world experience is of a similar order of magnitude. Crafted gear still has value, if it were not so, guild crafters would not be receiving a flood of gear requests, which they are. :)

Thank you so much for your feedback, @Anthrage. This is exactly how the developers think when they work on Crowfall's future nowadays.

At the same time, while your points seem logical and rational in theory, they are practically wrong and they do not work as intended (like at all). Again, your points are really good ones and this is how the dev team thinks that the game works (unfortunately)... but the reality is the opposite: it actually does NOT work that way and this is why:

 

DURABILITY and getting the right gear (with the right stats) for your character:

You wrote:

4 hours ago, Anthrage said:

while I agree with you in general, there is one important difference between dropped gear and crafted gear you did not mention - the durability. Crafted gear has 4 to 6 times the durability that dropped gear does, a fact which with the new realities of travel with the bind mechanics and larger linear maps, becomes significant when it comes to re-gearing, given the harsher damage to gear on usage and death.

 

5 hours ago, Anthrage said:

The other issue with dropped gear of course is that it does take some time to get the weapon type you want - and you need a weapon in the first place to kill the mob, especially if it is a top tier mob (which in some cases you will not be soloing). You need to play the RNG game to get the right weapon, and even once you get a weapon of sufficient quality of the right type, it will not have the exact stats you want, which a crafted weapon of course will.

 

The low durability on all the dropped gear is overcompensated by the plentiful drop of top-tier end gear. Moreover, you don't even have to kill a single mob to gear up in 10-15 minutes: you just need to run around the outposts and to loot outpost chests. Moreover, the gear you'll get from those outpost chests will be equal to the top-tier gear dropped by boss mobs. Yesterday, I logged into the no-import campaign on RU servers 20 minutes before the siege starts. And while I ran to our keep to defend it, I was able to loot a few chests on my way (this was the time of the highest population on the server) and I came to the keep fully equipped with top-tier blue and purple gear and pistols.

Some players would like this MOBA-style gameplay of course... I personally played DOTA2 on the semi-professional level for many-many years. But I came into Crowfall for a different reason: player-driven economy, elements of survival, sense of progression, interesting, unique and interdependent crafting system. Now all these 4 key elements are completely gone and the game is fastly moving towards to becoming just a big MOBA arena game. I love PVP, as well, I really do. But it seems like this is the only element left in Crowfall which I'm passionate about.

Finally, to be more specific, here is some facts from another big test I accomplished yesterday. I farmed tribe camps for 30 minutes in each of the instances (worlds) in Crowfall to see what the outcome will be because farming Gold is the key element in 6.400 as Gold is a very valuable resource now.

Here what I was able to accomplish in ONLY 30 minutes of farming:

Farm_30_minutes_Dregs.png?width=1202&hei

This is what I got after 30 minutes of gold farming in DREGS. As you may see, I got more then enough gear to equip myself and a few other guys. There is a few types of each gear pieces. Furthermore, in campaigns, when your guild owns a keep, there is ALWAYS a huge stock of the top-tier gear drop in keep chests. Dropped gear is just a byproduct when you farm gold so guild EKs and keep chests are always full of these stuff. All you basically need to do is to log in and to choose the gear set (or even a few gear sets) which will suit your character/build. This gear will be BETTER than 80% of the stuff crafters can craft. And only the absolute top-tier crafted stuff will be 10-15% better than the stocked drop gear you have access to 24/7.

@mcfizzlestag 🔽 (this is also to answer your comment)

There was a day I decided to see how fast I will break my armor and gear in 6.400. So I spent the whole day (10 hours approximately) only PVPing in Sky Point. I killed and died many-many times. My head was chopped more than 10 times that day. I was able to break only 3 sets of gear and weapons. But I had so much more left just in my personal bank (didn't even had to check the guild storage) that I could continue doing it for another 3-4 days in a row without going back to gold farming. This stock of gear I got after I farmed 200K gold to equip legendary mining discipline. Furthermore, I need to keep farming for at least another 800K gold to level up my harvester belt and to set up my Jewelcrafter. After I finish farming that 800K gold, I'll have enough top-tier gear till Crowfall release.

That is why gear and weapon crafting system has entirely been sacrificed to the PVP god in Crowfall. PVP is great and it is one of the key features in Crowfall but now we have no player-driven economy, no elements of survival, little sense of progression, interesting and unique crafting system is not really viable.

 

Crowfall release state predictions:

5 hours ago, Anthrage said:

I absolutely agree there needs to be more of a difference between dropped gear and crafted gear, but I feel you are overstating the issue for the reasons mentioned above, and also overlooking how this will play out in a release-state more densely populated server. It will not simply be a case of walking up to a mob camp and pressing a button to get the exact equivalent item as can be crafted like it were some giant vending machine...

Nothing will change even at the release with increased population. Only 1 night (low population time) of farming gear via outpost chests and tribe camps will get you geared for a few weeks of PVPing. Moreover, if you are in a guild, you will always be able to share and exchange any type of gear you want at any given time. The drop gear overflow is so huge that even with increased durability hits in 6.400 there is still little to no sense to rely on crafting. Gear and weapons crafting in 6.400 is just the niche for crazy min-maxers right now (except alchemy, jewelcrafting and necromancy, of course). Time spent harvesting resources, farming disciplines, then farming gold, then crafting special crafters gear... is absolutely not worth the outcome in 6.400.

 

Gear overflow and the 5-minutes to gear up (literary):

5 hours ago, Anthrage said:

The idea that you can collect the 1 or 2 weapons, and 4 armor pieces, of the correct type and stats you need to sufficiently match what a crafter would produce or provide, in 5 minutes, is absolutely 100% false. First, you need to be at the camp where the mob is located. The camp needs to be uncontested. The mob needs to be up. You need to kill it. It needs to drop the appropriate items (all 6 of them that you need), if you are not solo you need to potentially share that loot, and on Dregs before you equip it, you need to not be killed. If you can manage all of those things in 5 minutes, I will eat my hat.

I hope that your hat is tasty enough to be eaten by you, my friend =)))

Everything is much more simple in this game than you described. Here is how you do it: you log into the campaign, you approach a keep chest where your guild mates dump their surplus gear to. You get dressed in the top-tier gear in 5 minutes (which is actually spent to find the ones you need) with no efforts. You will ALWAYS have gear surplus because it is just a byproduct of farming gold which is very much in need in this game iteration.

Or if you want to ACHIEVE this yourself, you can just run around any map and loot the outpost chests.

 

5 hours ago, Anthrage said:

So yes, there is a problem, but let us not ground this conversation in completely ridiculous statements and erroneous information. I know the absurd 5-minute number was not the OP's, but the discrepancy between 'lab-testing' theory and practical real-world experience is of a similar order of magnitude. Crafted gear still has value, if it were not so, guild crafters would not be receiving a flood of gear requests, which they are. :)

Unfortunately the things I wrote has nothing to do with theory crafting. All these facts are from my real game experience. I just used test to write this post because it was faster to level up crafters and to prepare the data and screenshots for this post. The 5 minute number is exactly what it takes to gear up your vessel. I never said that the crafted gear has no value. What I say is that value you get from the absolute top-crafted gear compared to the gear which you can simply loot / right click from the outpost chest, for example, or get from mobs as a side product of farming gold is ridiculously low and not worth the efforts and time. I did not see any real errors which I made in the initial post. At least, your truly great feedback did not point them out.

 

P.S. I would love to see a video of you eating a hat ;)    I did not ask you to make such a commitment at the first place. So it was your free will :D 

Tyrant: you were too tough, they gave up. (10/15/2020)

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1 hour ago, mcfizzlestag said:

Here's the actual way to present differences between mismatched tiers of crafted gear (next time do tippered/polished crafted blue vs king drop blue armor)
Prioritizing Armour Rolls, the crafted has 33% more all stat and 33% more armour
Prioritizing All Stat Rolls, the crafted has 200% more all stat and 17% more armour.
this is a significant boost either way.

That would be great if you could show us a screenshot of the top-notch gear or weapon you were able to craft in 6.400. I am sincerely curious to see how far you can get there and where is the ceiling if you max out everything.

Btw, I did use bon-tippers in my experiment.

Edited by SAM_BUKA

Tyrant: you were too tough, they gave up. (10/15/2020)

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2 hours ago, Grivyn said:

Some points to add on the crafting front.

1: Let me choose which pip row gets polished or allow me to polish each pip row independently if I choose to spend the additional dust.

2: Do something about Risk Management vs Monkeys Paw, no crafter that gets to legendary belt is going to take Risk over Monkey there is just no contest between them. Better yet Allow us to get both, move Risk down to Epic and let those who want to spent the additional 50k gold and then get to legendary have all their cake like you used to get with the passives.

3: Jewelcrafting still doesn't have a Necklace for its own craft, this boggles the mind.

4: There is no bar/plank combine that allows for AP on below epic materials, why? This would at least help make early weapons viable

Fully agree with all the 4 points you've added to this thread.

I would also add that whilst there is currently a choice with actually no choice between Helper Monkey and Risk Management... there is also currently a choice with no choice when you choose a race for your crafter. Being able to equip 2 necks is so huge for crafters right now that the only way to go is High-Elf for most of the professions.

Tyrant: you were too tough, they gave up. (10/15/2020)

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1 hour ago, SAM_BUKA said:

That would be great if you could show us a screenshot of the top-notch gear or weapon you were able to craft in 6.400. I am sincerely curious to see how far you can get there and where is the ceiling if you max out everything.

Btw, I did use bon-tippers in my experiment.

The gear you posted was suffice for me to work out that Crafted gear does significantly out pace wartribe gear.  I dont need to waste my time further in test to come up with similar examples,  All i was saying was to better your argument towards your intent of the post, you should compare apples to apples, blue to blue.  WHat you did was work against your premise by showing the power gap that exists even with armour between legendary and wartribes.
To re-iterate:
The all stat rolled example you provided shows you get double the Stats you would get on a wartribe piece, saying its "only 4% more" is misleading, you doubled it while still gettin more armour.  Getting the thrall buff + Jewellry for difficulty reduction will also allow you to further the gap.  So you will end up with even more than double the all stat roll, and another pip into Armour (+more per pip due to better rolls)

So i do not think they need to nerf wartribe drops, keeping them at this point promotes activity in camp beyond people playing DF cards, i just want armour values adjusted on lower end crafted to make them comparable as stated in my previous post.

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They just need to buff the green/blue belts/discs a bit.

I'm currently making weapons about on par with the best blue drops we've seen in infected. This is with a green disc and blue belt. Once we upgrade the disc I think crafted weapons will far surpass 90-95% of the weapons I've seen dropped on the Infected map.

My main issue is that everything we crafted up to this point, using tens of thousands of mats, across 8 different crafting professions, gathered from hundreds of man hours of farming, had no use other than vendor for gold.

Edited by Yoink

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4 hours ago, SAM_BUKA said:

DURABILITY and getting the right gear (with the right stats) for your character:

The low durability on all the dropped gear is overcompensated by the plentiful drop of top-tier end gear. Moreover, you don't even have to kill a single mob to gear up in 10-15 minutes: you just need to run around the outposts and to loot outpost chests. Moreover, the gear you'll get from those outpost chests will be equal to the top-tier gear dropped by boss mobs. Yesterday, I logged into the no-import campaign on RU servers 20 minutes before the siege starts. And while I ran to our keep to defend it, I was able to loot a few chests on my way (this was the time of the highest population on the server) and I came to the keep fully equipped with top-tier blue and purple gear and pistols.

-----

This is what I got after 30 minutes of gold farming in DREGS. As you may see, I got more then enough gear to equip myself and a few other guys.

I see these issues with difficulty and ease of obtaining drops.

A solo player shouldn't be able to skip around soloing "boss" mobs and looting chests filled with high end loot of any kind.

Require at least 1 full group if not several to handle "Boss" mobs. Chests and such should be protected by these "boss" mobs or some other challenge.

IMO, "Free" loot should stop at God's Reach. From then on it should require some effort and team work to obtain anything. Being able to mindlessly faceroll wartribes for gold, gear, or anything is not a good design.

Assuming difficulty scaled in relation to drops along with a real population, my guess is it would be less of an issue.

All of these things can be tuned with campaign rules, risk v reward. 

Quote

player-driven economy, elements of survival, sense of progression, interesting, unique and interdependent crafting system. Now all these 4 key elements are completely gone and the game is fastly moving towards to becoming just a big MOBA arena game.

While I disagree with the MOBA comparison, I do agree that these core elements don't really exist.

Economy: EKs are a bust, vendor searching is a joke, and no central trade hub - auction house - search features is archaic design.

Survival: The "Hunger" and world being dangerous only existed in the Hunger Dome battle royale wall of death. Beyond that we have the chicken ticker.

Progression: The original passive training concept sounded like it might have some worth but quickly went down hill after the first and subsequent versions. Glad it is gone. Unfortunately, they haven't come up with anything besides RNG carrot chasing that people bash games like WoW for.

Crafting: Regardless of the value of items, I believe the system is very limiting due to the lack of stats crafters have access too, the excessive clicking, and pseudo complexity. Players should have a lot more control over every aspect of crafting to give it value to someone starting day 1 or 5 years in. 

If Crowfall's design was actually going towards a MOBA, maybe we'd see more then a couple people playing. IMO it is more like a glorified MMO battleground that requires a lot of grinding/RNG gameplay to basically do what can be done in any game with RvR/siege like mechanics, just without 90% of the other content those games have. It's an empty experience.

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There was a day I decided to see how fast I will break my armor and gear in 6.400. So I spent the whole day (10 hours approximately) only PVPing in Sky Point. I killed and died many-many times. My head was chopped more than 10 times that day. I was able to break only 3 sets of gear and weapons. But I had so much more left just in my personal bank (didn't even had to check the guild storage) that I could continue doing it for another 3-4 days in a row without going back to gold farming. This stock of gear I got after I farmed 200K gold to equip legendary mining discipline. Furthermore, I need to keep farming for at least another 800K gold to level up my harvester belt and to set up my Jewelcrafter. After I finish farming that 800K gold, I'll have enough top-tier gear till Crowfall release.

This is a matter of tweaking decay rates and playing with campaign rules.

So many cried out that equipped gear drop was excessive, while you claim that anyone can go equip themselves and others in mere minutes.

Maybe an option could be crafted gear be it all or a particular tier can't be looted while similar vendor/dropped gear can? This could be per campaign or whatever. Those that put in the extra time to make a crafter, harvest, and craft high end gear would see their gear have a long lifetime in comparison.

To me that would be a worth while effort, regardless if the stats are 100% the same between dropped and crafted. 

Dropped/vendor gear has a place in the game as is and if it actually had an economy. Easy come, easy go. If the system is too imbalanced, drop the durability even more, make it even more difficult to obtain dropped items.

This would allow new, solo, small teams a means to compete, but those that organize and put in the effort would have something to show for their time. Again, much of which can be tweaked per Campaign and players would hopefully navigate to what fits their playstyle as Crowfall isn't and shouldn't be one size fits all. That is a major core feature I backed for, along with the items mentioned above.

What happened to "bend the knee" and being able to out survive enemies? We lost destruction, free building, and winning is entirely based on a dev driven point system and quests. Players have little control over outcomes. With gear looting and a harsher experience for those that wanted it, Campaigns could scale to being an actual real challenge where players/guilds eliminated each other over time with a winner actually defeating others, not out earning points on a scoreboard.

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Nothing will change even at the release with increased population. Only 1 night (low population time) of farming gear via outpost chests and tribe camps will get you geared for a few weeks of PVPing.

This is a big assumption. If a campaign server housed 500-1k-2k at a time, it likely would be much more difficult to go from chest to boss looting without resistance. They could also tweak the drop rates and difficulty depending on time of day, population active at the time, and any other settings. So a ninja farmer can't just go from chest to chest at 2 am stocking up their guild for the next 5 months.

I agree with your overall issues, but believe much of it can be improved without removing/devaluing dropped items or making crafted gear godly in comparison. The entire game is out of balance. Individual systems are just that, they are missing the balance between them. Along with lack of economy mechanics and other core features that need to either improve or flat out exist.

Glad someone is willing to do all the testing, but unfortunate ACE is more focused on the little things and not the big picture. 

Edited by APE
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Time for my obligatory answer to every economy post.

We don't need to lessen gear drops. Getting gear that is actually useful as drops is fun. It is fine that people can get gear as drops that is actually useful in a fight.

We don't need to strengthen crafted items. Making an item with exactly the stats you want on it that lasts a lot longer than dropped items is fun. It is fine that it is only slightly better than drops.

We need to drastically increase the yield of all forms of harvesting and reduce the gold grind associated with exploration disc upgrades so that the effort to reward ratio for crafting is similar to that of looting.

The problem is not that drops are too good or crafted items are not good enough. The problem is it takes way too much time to gather resources to build anything. Fix that, and 4% better than a boss drop is fine.

 

Edited by PopeUrban

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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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1 minute ago, PopeUrban said:

We need to drastically increase the yield of all forms of harvesting so that the effort to reward ratio for crafting is similar to that of looting.

Can we advocate for drastically decreasing the costs of crafting? I would prefer to avoid inflation before the game even launches. :)

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24 minutes ago, Yoink said:

They just need to buff the green/blue belts/discs a bit.

I'm currently making weapons about on par with the best blue drops we've seen in infected. This is with a green disc and blue belt. Once we upgrade the disc I think crafted weapons will far surpass 90-95% of the weapons I've seen dropped on the Infected map.

My main issue is that everything we crafted up to this point, using tens of thousands of mats, across 8 different crafting professions, gathered from hundreds of man hours of farming, had no use other than vendor for gold.

DREGS gear drop even more powerful than Infected. Yet it is still plentiful. Moreover, top-tier drop gear can be simply obtained from the outpost chests. You don't even have to fight boss mobs. Even green gear you can buy from vendor is more powerful than the drop in infected. Check it out on test server.

Tyrant: you were too tough, they gave up. (10/15/2020)

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9 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

Can we advocate for drastically decreasing the costs of crafting? I would prefer to avoid inflation before the game even launches. :)

My thinking is that increasing harvesting payouts is the better method for a couple reasons.

  • It is just more fun to get "more loot" so you've got a much better feedback loop for harvester. Doober spew is pretty and a large part of what makes harvesting engaging, so more of it, overall, would be an improvement compared to numbers on the crafting interface.
  • Harvesting as the front of the process is more accessible. If we are to correct a broken supply and demand economy, increasing supply is preferable to reducing demand, as the supply side is the side that puts people in the world interacting with each other. Basically, not everybody crafts, but almost everybody harvests in some capacity, so improving the activity that more players interact with seems like the better move.
  • Adjusting harvesting payouts is just plain easier than adjusting crafting recipes. There are a ton of balance implications with harvesting recipes already, like "it takes 3 units of X to build Y base component" that you would have to change the whole system to adjust because they're balanced on combining 3 things. Hitting the supply side means you don't have to mess with the underlying design of crafting in this way.
  • This also assumes we get rid of the ridiculous 100% material loot protection. We never needed this and it is highly unpopular.
Edited by PopeUrban

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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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