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Here is WHY crafting is even more dead in 6.400 than it used


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23 minutes ago, APE said:

Crowfall's design was actually going towards a MOBA, maybe we'd see more then a couple people playing. IMO it is more like a glorified MMO battleground that requires a lot of grinding/RNG gameplay to basically do what can be done in any game with RvR/siege like mechanics, just without 90% of the other content those games have. It's an empty experience.

I can't agree more with you here.

Overall, thank you for the really detailed feedback.

I would only argue with you about looting when/if the population will be times higher than now but that is the least important thing out of the rest stuff discussed.

Tyrant: you were too tough, they gave up. (10/15/2020)

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Pre-story: a lot of players are really demoralized that ACE has SIGNIFICANTLY diminished the outcome of Weaponsmith, Armorsmith, Leatherwoprker, and Woodworker compared to the drop gear you can get fr

Another part of this problem is that WT gear and crafted gear are directly competitive with each other, with no loop. As a caveat, there are also stats available only on WT gear that is not available

I made sure to read this whole post before making this comment, and while I agree with you in general, there is one important difference between dropped gear and crafted gear you did not mention - the

20 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

Time for my obligatory answer to every economy post.

We don't need to lessen gear drops. Getting gear that is actually useful as drops is fun. It is fine that people can get gear as drops that is actually useful in a fight.

We don't need to strengthen crafted items. Making an item with exactly the stats you want on it that lasts a lot longer than dropped items is fun. It is fine that it is only slightly better than drops.

We need to drastically increase the yield of all forms of harvesting and reduce the gold grind associated with exploration disc upgrades so that the effort to reward ratio for crafting is similar to that of looting.

The problem is not that drops are too good or crafted items are not good enough. The problem is it takes way too much time to gather resources to build anything. Fix that, and 4% better than a boss drop is fine.

 

Hey, I actually seen you in the game one time! In Sky Point. And even was honored to chop your vessels head. It was really a unique experience to see you in game. I believe that for players like you it should be really very convenient to gear up in 15-30 minutes in par with everyone else. But the things is that people like you only play for a few hours every 6 months so there is a very little to no content you create for the game overall.

Also, you are least likely to buy stuff from the game shop so that it doesn't make sense to fit the whole game to please such players.

Tyrant: you were too tough, they gave up. (10/15/2020)

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14 minutes ago, SAM_BUKA said:

Hey, I actually seen you in the game one time! In Sky Point. And even was honored to chop your vessels head. It was really a unique experience to see you in game. I believe that for players like you it should be really very convenient to gear up in 15-30 minutes in par with everyone else. But the things is that people like you only play for a few hours every 6 months so there is a very little to no content you create for the game overall.

Also, you are least likely to buy stuff from the game shop so that it doesn't make sense to fit the whole game to please such players.

You may not be aware of this, but the PopeUrban account is not the only account I own. It is, however the only account I post from.

The reason people aren't buying those items is because they literally do not exist in shops because it takes too long to make them, and their vendor costs are ridiculously high because of the effort that goes in to them.

The reason you can't sell anything is because your stuff is too expensive compared to the advantages it gives over drops. Not because drops exist, but because crafted items take far more effort than they pay out in usefulness.

The solution here is to actually make them cheaper so you can sell a greater volume, keep your vendors stocked, and people actually want to buy it because it is more reliable than rolling the dice on mob drops and a fair time/cost spend for their time farming the gold to buy it.

Even if we did what you want, effectively making drops worthless, the ability to stock shops remains unchanged while the demand for crafted items increases drastically, and the player crafting economy is still broken.

Edited by PopeUrban

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6 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

You may not be aware of this, but the PopeUrban account is not the only account I own. It is, however the only account I post from.

The reason people aren't buying those items is because they literally do not exist in shops because it takes too long to make them, and their vendor costs are ridiculously high because of the effort that goes in to them.

The reason you can't sell anything is because your stuff is too expensive compared to the advantages it gives over drops. Not because drops exist, but because crafted items take far more effort than they pay out in usefulness.

The solution here is to actually make them cheaper so you can sell a greater volume, keep your vendors stocked, and people actually want to buy it because it is more reliable than rolling the dice on mob drops and a fair time/cost spend for their time farming the gold to buy it.

Even if we did what you want, effectively making drops worthless, the ability to stock shops remains unchanged while the demand for crafted items increases drastically, and the player crafting economy is still broken.

Hey thank you for the feedback. I sincerely appreciate it, please don't get me wrong, I really do.

I do not agree with you on that at the same time. I haven't seen any more or less solid facts which could support your assumptions and suggestions.

Edited by SAM_BUKA

Tyrant: you were too tough, they gave up. (10/15/2020)

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1 minute ago, SAM_BUKA said:

Hey thank you for the feedback. I sincerely appreciate it don't get me wrong.

I do not agree with you on that at the same time. I haven't seen any more or less solid facts which could support your assumptions.

The facts I use to support this assumption:

  • Players actually regularly sell drops on vendors, but do not regularly sell crafted gear on vendors.
  • People in my guild regularly sell drops but do not regularly sell crafted items
  • The only exceptions to this rule are crafted items that are relatively easy to generate single units of, like tools or toxins, and they make pretty decent money on these.

Why?

Because looting generates surplus gear beyond what one player actually needs AND a byproduct of gold. because items like tools or toxins have a low turnaround to generate a single unit so there is no fear of wasted opportunity cost where "If I sell crafted stuff I might not be able to actually keep up with guild needs"

You need to go through not only the gold grind, but also the harvesting grind to make a single crafted item, and that process takes so long for many crafted items that it is virtually impossible to make both enough stuff for yourself/your guild AND reliably stock a vendor with quality crafted items.

On top of that, the price point you end up selling those crated items for is usually 10x or 20x what you'd sell a drop for because hey, it takes a lot of work to build those items, but for the customer those items are only going to be around 4x as long as the drops.

That's not the fault of the crafter, they're trying to run a business. It's a problem with the supply chain. Its just way too low to support the requested volume at an attractive price. Fix the supply chain, we fix the crafting economy.

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37 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

Players actually regularly sell drops on vendors, but do not regularly sell crafted gear on vendors.

Because the starter gear and mid-game gear you craft is much worse than a simple dropped gear. That is directly connected to the issues I wrote about in the post.

37 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

People in my guild regularly sell drops but do not regularly sell crafted items

Same reason. But even selling drop gear does not go well (ask your guildies) because any type of top tier drop gear is so easy to get for everyone.

37 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

The only exceptions to this rule are crafted items that are relatively easy to generate single units of, like tools or toxins, and they make pretty decent money on these.

Exactly! You are able to sell a lot of those because you can't find them anywhere in the world. That's how every crafted piece of gear should be, as well. But right now selling and buying those does not make any sense because the game is flooded with gear and weapons.

 

That's what this whole post is about. Also, here is the second part of it, if you wanna check it out.

 

Edited by SAM_BUKA

Tyrant: you were too tough, they gave up. (10/15/2020)

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1 hour ago, SAM_BUKA said:

Exactly! You are able to sell a lot of those because you can't find them anywhere in the world. That's how every crafted piece of gear should be, as well. But right now selling and buying those does not make any sense because the game is flooded with gear and weapons.

 

The "low end gear isn't good" is a moot point because the game is no longer designed or balanced under the assumption people use low end gear. Low end crafting or harvesting is irrelevant to game balance aside from the time it takes to grind to max. That is the reality of an active progression system, and why I was against it.w Nobody is building real low end items. They're building garbage to proc crafting souls. No matter what you did to crafting they'd still be building garbage to proc crafting souls. Players are not stupid. They will not waste time crafting a more expensive item like a breastplate or 2h weapon with optional additives when they can proc souls crafting nothing but terrible boots or 1h maces. Low end gear will never be god, never be viable, and never be avaliable with the advancement system we have now, even if mob drops were literally removed from the game.

This was directly stated by jtodd and blair in the stream where they announced passive training was being removed. They are not interested in balancing a "moving target" of various levels of advancement and in stead chose to balance around the end of that advancement.

The "force people to buy crafted will fix the economy" is also demonstrably untrue in crowfall. This is why intermediates were originally added to the game if you recall. We had a wipe of passive skills at one point, nobody could craft anything, and the inability to gear without spending considerable amounts of time gathering first. If you do this in a system without passive training, you also create a system in which you are not only able, but far more encouraged to just craft your own stuff than buy it from someone else.

If your options for engaging in PvP, in a PvP game are either "farm gold forever to buy one item I will break within a month" or "farm the same gold to buy discs" you are going to buy the discs, and the discs will only get cheaper as time passes and more people max out their crafters and harvesters and have no use for them but to sell them.

Crafting is still integral to crowfall. It is still necessary to meaningfully optimize builds. It is still necessary for many types of progression and certain build choices. It is not "worthless" and there is no reason it needs to be step one to do everything. In its long development Crowfall has tried this "you require a crafter for basic PvP equipment" model, and this model has failed, been patched, and failed again over and over. That's why we don't have it any more. It was a bad idea that drove players away and put too much power and focus on too few players.

Loot drops exist for a reason. Their effect on the game has been positive more than negative. It has resulted in more people engaging in more pvp, faster, and players generally spending longer in the world between siege times as a result. The question should be "how do we make crafting better" not "how do we make mob farming worse so everything feels as terrible as crafting does." That's a crab bucket mentality that does not improve the game for crafters so much as it makes the game worse for everyone that isn't a crafter while still having a game that sucks for crafters.

Edited by PopeUrban

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2 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

The "force people to buy crafted will fix the economy" is also demonstrably untrue in crowfall. This is why intermediates were originally added to the game if you recall.

I do remember, they added dropped gear into the game due to not having an economy/marketplace. It is not viable to have passive training without any marketplace, which if you remember was right when ACE decided to add timeouts to EK's and destroyed gold as a currency. There really has not been an effective way for people to get invested in a non-existent economy, which I counter is a main reason so many systems were changed and failed over and over.

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Another part of this problem is that WT gear and crafted gear are directly competitive with each other, with no loop. As a caveat, there are also stats available only on WT gear that is not available on crafted. They really feel like two systems trying to accomplish the same goal (equipment loops), as opposed to two parts of one system.

About a year ago, I suggested the simple solution that WT gear needs to be disenchanted into its suffix and prefix additives, which would be put into crafted gear. These systems need to play well with each other, or we will constantly be in this situation of "WT gear too easy to get, crafting too hard vs. WT gear complete garbage, nobody care about WT camps."

I'm not sure what they are going to do, but this problem is one of a bunch in the category of "how are these different systems connected to make a coherent game?" 

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1 minute ago, McTan said:

I'm not sure what they are going to do, but this problem is one of a bunch in the category of "how are these different systems connected to make a coherent game?" 

You either have casual crafting with mob gear drops or involved crafting without gear drops. Its quite simple.

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3 hours ago, McTan said:

Another part of this problem is that WT gear and crafted gear are directly competitive with each other, with no loop. As a caveat, there are also stats available only on WT gear that is not available on crafted. They really feel like two systems trying to accomplish the same goal (equipment loops), as opposed to two parts of one system.

About a year ago, I suggested the simple solution that WT gear needs to be disenchanted into its suffix and prefix additives, which would be put into crafted gear. These systems need to play well with each other, or we will constantly be in this situation of "WT gear too easy to get, crafting too hard vs. WT gear complete garbage, nobody care about WT camps."

I'm not sure what they are going to do, but this problem is one of a bunch in the category of "how are these different systems connected to make a coherent game?" 

On topic of the stats in WT that crafted gear gets i realy want to see them become available on crafted gear, there plenty of crafting combinations not used already, power effiency, Dmg to low HP/High HP target, basic attack modifiers and so on lots of stats that could be used here.

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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9 hours ago, mystafyi said:

You either have casual crafting with mob gear drops or involved crafting without gear drops. Its quite simple.

Plenty of games have different "tiers" of gear and means to obtain it. No reason crafting and dropped gear can't both scale and co-exist beyond dev creativity limitations.

Problem is the individual systems and how they work together need to be improved from the ground up and with launch planned for this year 😄 and no word from ACE, I assume this is as good as it gets.

Non accessible and basic feature lacking "economy," easy to obtain top tier drops, and crafting that arguably is more work then it's worth. Add in a nice dose of RNG and grindy game play to top it off.

What's frustrating is they have most of the tools needed but execution is whiffing by a lot and each update seems to go backwards or sideways instead of forward.

IMO this game has zero chance if crafting remains the same and drops are removed.

Crafting should be opened up and streamlined to make it more accessible to new players/casuals and offer a lot more complexity/options for those that actually want to master it.

Drops need to scale with the challenge to obtain them.

Durability and stats need to reflect the difficulty of obtaining both but shouldn't be drastically different where one is the clear "best" option for everyone. Let players decide.

There should be some form of progress but seems too difficulty for this team so I don't see them getting away from the tired garbage-legendary color coded model.

Economy based in EKs isn't good unless EKs are functional, which they aren't. Much rather see some sort of persistent "Trade World" with several maps with trading hubs (no auction house needed, but I wouldn't hate on it). Players/guilds could buy space and be taxed. Also need a way to quickly search vendor inventories, mail, and other very basic features for a game releasing this year.

My guess is they'll add more chests or something as amazing to solve everything. 🙃

Edited by APE

 


 

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13 minutes ago, APE said:

Problem is the individual systems and how they work together need to be improved from the ground up and with launch planned for this year 😄 and no word from ACE, I assume this is as good as it gets.

This is a real problem. The game systems have changed so much we are now at a point where nobody knows what is coming, what is yet to be changed and what is off the table and deleted. This past few years has been a bloodbath of changes, some good and some bad but overall its been quite chaotic and well the word bumbling comes to mind. Even though its quite unflattering the other descriptors would be much worse.

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9 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

This is a real problem. The game systems have changed so much we are now at a point where nobody knows what is coming, what is yet to be changed and what is off the table and deleted. This past few years has been a bloodbath of changes, some good and some bad but overall its been quite chaotic and well the word bumbling comes to mind. Even though its quite unflattering the other descriptors would be much worse.

Yeah. I feel exactly the same. I would only say that it is not the last few years but more likely the last few months since they removed passive training.

Tyrant: you were too tough, they gave up. (10/15/2020)

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20 hours ago, SAM_BUKA said:

The low durability on all the dropped gear is overcompensated by the plentiful drop of top-tier end gear. Moreover, you don't even have to kill a single mob to gear up in 10-15 minutes: you just need to run around the outposts and to loot outpost chests. Moreover, the gear you'll get from those outpost chests will be equal to the top-tier gear dropped by boss mobs.

Finally, to be more specific, here is some facts from another big test I accomplished yesterday. I farmed tribe camps for 30 minutes in each of the instances (worlds) in Crowfall to see what the outcome will be because farming Gold is the key element in 6.400 as Gold is a very valuable resource now.

Here what I was able to accomplish in ONLY 30 minutes of farming:

Farm_30_minutes_Dregs.png?width=1202&hei

This is what I got after 30 minutes of gold farming in DREGS. As you may see, I got more then enough gear to equip myself and a few other guys. There is a few types of each gear pieces. Furthermore, in campaigns, when your guild owns a keep, there is ALWAYS a huge stock of the top-tier gear drop in keep chests. Dropped gear is just a byproduct when you farm gold so guild EKs and keep chests are always full of these stuff. All you basically need to do is to log in and to choose the gear set (or even a few gear sets) which will suit your character/build. This gear will be BETTER than 80% of the stuff crafters can craft. And only the absolute top-tier crafted stuff will be 10-15% better than the stocked drop gear you have access to 24/7.

*snip*

There was a day I decided to see how fast I will break my armor and gear in 6.400. So I spent the whole day (10 hours approximately) only PVPing in Sky Point. I killed and died many-many times. My head was chopped more than 10 times that day. I was able to break only 3 sets of gear and weapons. But I had so much more left just in my personal bank (didn't even had to check the guild storage) that I could continue doing it for another 3-4 days in a row without going back to gold farming. This stock of gear I got after I farmed 200K gold to equip legendary mining discipline. Furthermore, I need to keep farming for at least another 800K gold to level up my harvester belt and to set up my Jewelcrafter. After I finish farming that 800K gold, I'll have enough top-tier gear till Crowfall release.

I know you honestly think you have contradicted me and effectively countered my points, but you have in fact supported them. Yes it is true that Keep chests after a certain amount of time can contain a wealth of gear that is 80% optimal, but the detail here is, for how many players/guilds is this true, after how much time, and FOR how much time? Only a subset of guilds will own a keep and have access to this distribution mechanism, only a subset of players will be in said guilds, and a far smaller subset of players will be those that take the time it requires to farm that 200k gold, or the subsequent 800k. This is the fallacy of the 1%, where said people think that because something can have occurred for them, it is something that should be of widespread experience to everyone - but it absolutely is not. This is a pure fact.

It is also a fact that while you say "I got more than enough gear to equip myself and a few other guys." even setting aside the suboptimal nature of that gear, this is only true if none of your guys are druids, frostweavers, rangers, clerics, templars and so on - your 30 minutes of dregs farming has zero gear usable by those classes. I don't know if we are looking at the same screenshot but unless you mean to equip a group of Michael Jackson's, you are not gearing up anyone fully with that gear in your inventory. :)

You also mention gearing up in 10 or 15 minutes by running around and looting outpost chests, and that said gear will will be equal to the top tier gear dropped by boss mobs. Firstly, that last statement is entirely untrue - outpost chest gear CAN have a piece or 2 which is of high quality, but the majority of it will be subpar, assuming it is even of the correct type. I feel you are absolutely overlooking the RNG involved with non-crafting gear sources, which translates to time spent. You also need to physical get to the outposts, which takes time, if you do not own them they must be captured, and not every outpost even has a chest to loot. For some campaigns, I have had the most captures on the scoreboard, and I can assure you these facts are based on hard data...it is not a simple case of 5, or 10 or 15 minutes of work - my hat is quite safe. :P

20 hours ago, SAM_BUKA said:

 Gear overflow and the 5-minutes to gear up (literary):

I hope that your hat is tasty enough to be eaten by you, my friend =)))

Everything is much more simple in this game than you described. Here is how you do it: you log into the campaign, you approach a keep chest where your guild mates dump their surplus gear to. You get dressed in the top-tier gear in 5 minutes (which is actually spent to find the ones you need) with no efforts. You will ALWAYS have gear surplus because it is just a byproduct of farming gold which is very much in need in this game iteration.

Or if you want to ACHIEVE this yourself, you can just run around any map and loot the outpost chests.

Again, see above - "just running around the map and loot the outpost chests" will not produce what crafting does. The 5 minutes spent looting the chest cannot be separated from the hours it took other people to fill those chests, which is a byproduct of farming gold, but which eventually lessen in need over the course of a campaign and the course of the live service of the game. Once your harvesters and crafters have done all the grinding necessary to acquire and upgrade their runes, belts, tools and so on, which itself involves production of gear of course, there will come a time where no-one will settle for a suboptimal piece of gear that will last 20% of the amount of time an optimal crafted gear will, when they need to spend less of their own time to get the latter than they do the former. I do not see how anyone can honestly argue that point.

You also overlooked my point about the difference between a Beta Dregs and a Live-service release Dregs in terms of population and activity, competition for the outpost chest/mob camp slot machines will be far more intense than it is now (and there already is some competition, even in Infected) - as it will be for resource nodes. This is an important point which I feel many of us overlook. I agree there needs to be something done to increase the value of crafted gear - and there are a great many ways to do this - but all of this feedback, some of it based on provably inaccurate data as I have shown, is based on a subset of overall experiences in an environment that is entirely different from which the systems are designed for. Release, unless Crowfall is a complete failure and does not gather what would be considered a healthy population by the appropriate standards, will produce a vastly different set of outcomes than what we see now.

Since there is no Dregs available, I cannot do a live test showing what outpost chests actually produce and how it plays out and the time involved, but once we get one I will do that and will demonstrate that it is not as simple a matter as you are portraying.

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One more time, thanks for your point of view. Really appreciate that the issues I raised concern people and they are ready to actively discuss them.

 

But let me argue with you a little bit here again 😃

3 hours ago, Anthrage said:

I know you honestly think you have contradicted me and effectively countered my points, but you have in fact supported them. Yes it is true that Keep chests after a certain amount of time can contain a wealth of gear that is 80% optimal, but the detail here is, for how many players/guilds is this true, after how much time, and FOR how much time? Only a subset of guilds will own a keep and have access to this distribution mechanism, only a subset of players will be in said guilds, and a far smaller subset of players will be those that take the time it requires to farm that 200k gold, or the subsequent 800k. This is the fallacy of the 1%, where said people think that because something can have occurred for them, it is something that should be of widespread experience to everyone - but it absolutely is not. This is a pure fact.

Yes, I understand that some people are causal players and won't be farming even for a few hours. But to have access to the plentiful gear flow you don't even have to be in a big guild. It is enough just to be in ANY guild. Beside being a DIS member on NA I also play in a smaller guild on RU servers called "Steel & Flame". And the situation there is still the same: for every 2 or 3 casual PVP focused players there ALWAYS be at least 1 player who likes to farm. At the end of the day, after ACE removed passive training Crowfall has become a grind and farm game (which I'm not opposed to, it just has to be well-balanced). Moreover, even developers acknowledge that Crowfall is not made to suit solo-players and the first advice all affiliates give to new players is to find ANY guild.

 

3 hours ago, Anthrage said:

It is also a fact that while you say "I got more than enough gear to equip myself and a few other guys." even setting aside the suboptimal nature of that gear, this is only true if none of your guys are druids, frostweavers, rangers, clerics, templars and so on - your 30 minutes of dregs farming has zero gear usable by those classes. I don't know if we are looking at the same screenshot but unless you mean to equip a group of Michael Jackson's, you are not gearing up anyone fully with that gear in your inventory. :)

Yeah, I really think you should revise different classes here. I do remember that all these classes: druids, frostweavers, clerics, rangers etc. can wear leather, plate and mail, depending on the promotion they chose. So there is no contradiction to what I said at all. You more likely find weapons (if you meant weapons here) in outpost chests. They spawn there more often then you can find them in WT camps. Good hint for you when you decide to find yourself a nice weapon in Dregs ;)

 

3 hours ago, Anthrage said:

You also mention gearing up in 10 or 15 minutes by running around and looting outpost chests, and that said gear will will be equal to the top tier gear dropped by boss mobs. Firstly, that last statement is entirely untrue - outpost chest gear CAN have a piece or 2 which is of high quality, but the majority of it will be subpar, assuming it is even of the correct type. I feel you are absolutely overlooking the RNG involved with non-crafting gear sources, which translates to time spent. You also need to physical get to the outposts, which takes time, if you do not own them they must be captured, and not every outpost even has a chest to loot. For some campaigns, I have had the most captures on the scoreboard, and I can assure you these facts are based on hard data...it is not a simple case of 5, or 10 or 15 minutes of work - my hat is quite safe. :P

I do understand that my experience will be different because I play this game on a daily basis for a long time already. I just wanted to show how ridiculous the situation/imbalance is. And yes, this is literary possible to achieve that in the exact period of time I mentioned. I did it myself many times. At the same time, I understand that less experienced players would have done it not in 15 minutes, but still in an hour or so, which is still very ridiculous and very imbalanced. It is even worse on 6.400 TEST because the drop gear is even stronger, I already checked it.

 

3 hours ago, Anthrage said:

Again, see above - "just running around the map and loot the outpost chests" will not produce what crafting does. The 5 minutes spent looting the chest cannot be separated from the hours it took other people to fill those chests, which is a byproduct of farming gold, but which eventually lessen in need over the course of a campaign and the course of the live service of the game. Once your harvesters and crafters have done all the grinding necessary to acquire and upgrade their runes, belts, tools and so on, which itself involves production of gear of course, there will come a time where no-one will settle for a suboptimal piece of gear that will last 20% of the amount of time an optimal crafted gear will, when they need to spend less of their own time to get the latter than they do the former. I do not see how anyone can honestly argue that point.

It looks like you are not a big crafter, my friend. All those 10 months which I play Crowfall I used to be the primary guild crafter and I know what I am talking about. You are only able to craft comparable to WT loot gear and weapons when you have Purple Disc + Purple belt. Plus, crafting purple items or even the blue ones is very expensive material-wise. It takes a lot of cooperation between different players and crafters, and it takes a lot of time. It is so much easier to run around the map and loot all the things you need in 1 hour alone. To be able to craft gear and weapons BETTER than WT drop is even more complicated.

 

3 hours ago, Anthrage said:

You also overlooked my point about the difference between a Beta Dregs and a Live-service release Dregs in terms of population and activity, competition for the outpost chest/mob camp slot machines will be far more intense than it is now (and there already is some competition, even in Infected) - as it will be for resource nodes. This is an important point which I feel many of us overlook. I agree there needs to be something done to increase the value of crafted gear - and there are a great many ways to do this - but all of this feedback, some of it based on provably inaccurate data as I have shown, is based on a subset of overall experiences in an environment that is entirely different from which the systems are designed for. Release, unless Crowfall is a complete failure and does not gather what would be considered a healthy population by the appropriate standards, will produce a vastly different set of outcomes than what we see now.

That is a really good point which developers team members also told me in our private conversation on this matter. This is exactly how the dev team thinks. And here is what I've answered:
"That is a good point you've made here. And this is what Crowfall has crafting system for: to be able to craft stuff. More crafters will be needed when population grows, more harvesters will be needed, more people will be needed to defend those harvesters, more content will be created around that... and so on.

Right now, even the biggest guilds like us, Dissentient, have ONLY 1 crafter per each profession because the demand is so low, because you can simply farm for 15 minutes and be fully equipped. Even simplier: you check the guild store and simply take whatever you need of the best quality. Because gold farmers are getting TONS of gear while farming gold as a side product.

6 months ago we used to have many more people into crafting. Even cooking was a profession itself. Nowadays, when most of things are simply looted from outpost chest, many crafting professions do not feel that impactful and satisfying. Survival elements are gone. The game just literary switched from 1 year progression (with passive training) to 1 day progression from scratch (if we don't take into account vessel quality and a few other things like jewelry).

I really like the fact that without passive training players can progress faster and that their progress depends on them. At the same time, it feels like Crowfall went from one extreme to another. Being able to gear up in top-tier gear from day 1 is kinda too-too fast. It feels like there should be something in the middle: moderation is key.
If you make a survey about player driven economy among players, you will see that the absolute majority of players agree that it is broken right now. The main reason for that is plentiful and imbalanced drop of gear and of other materials from mobs and outpost chests.

Whilst the current iteration of the game already simplifies crafters and gatherers progression: I was able to get my Miner to Legendary discipline and Purple belt in 1 week of semi-casual play. Same with my crafter: 1 week to get lego disc and blue belt. The only choke was gold. If mot the gold farm, I would have had legendary everything. So why not let players lead the game economy instead of mobs and chests?"

 

3 hours ago, Anthrage said:

Since there is no Dregs available, I cannot do a live test showing what outpost chests actually produce and how it plays out and the time involved, but once we get one I will do that and will demonstrate that it is not as simple a matter as you are portraying.

This is the strangest part of our conversation, my friend. It is very strange for my to discover that a player who has 1'890 posts on this forum does not know that you can access DREGS on TEST server and test whatever you like there. Moreover, I would tell you that this issue with loot chests has begun since the Outpost Chests were introduced in 6.300 version. I play on RU servers, as well. They still play 6.300. And just this Saturday I entered 0 import campaign with my guinecean duelist there (btw my nick name is El_Boleo_2_0   @el_boleo   hahaha ;) ). In 20 minutes while I ran to our castle I was fully equipped with top-tier blue gear and pistols just from looting outpost chests. This is a LIVE campaign, Bro!

 

 

Finally, I would like to give you some options hear. Which type of the hat would you like to eat:
 

On 2/21/2021 at 7:28 AM, Anthrage said:

The camp needs to be uncontested. The mob needs to be up. You need to kill it. It needs to drop the appropriate items (all 6 of them that you need), if you are not solo you need to potentially share that loot, and on Dregs before you equip it, you need to not be killed. If you can manage all of those things in 5 minutes, I will eat my hat.

A gentleman's hat

gent_hat.jpg

 

A detective hat:

detective_hat.jpg

 

A straw hat:

straw_hat.jpg?width=490&height=669

 

... or one of those funny hats? =))

funny_hat_1.jpg?width=458&height=670

funny_hat_2.jpg

 

P.S. do not take this personal or too serious. This is just my regular sense of humor. No offense ;)

Edited by SAM_BUKA

Tyrant: you were too tough, they gave up. (10/15/2020)

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16 hours ago, McTan said:

Another part of this problem is that WT gear and crafted gear are directly competitive with each other, with no loop. As a caveat, there are also stats available only on WT gear that is not available on crafted. They really feel like two systems trying to accomplish the same goal (equipment loops), as opposed to two parts of one system.

About a year ago, I suggested the simple solution that WT gear needs to be disenchanted into its suffix and prefix additives, which would be put into crafted gear. These systems need to play well with each other, or we will constantly be in this situation of "WT gear too easy to get, crafting too hard vs. WT gear complete garbage, nobody care about WT camps."

I'm not sure what they are going to do, but this problem is one of a bunch in the category of "how are these different systems connected to make a coherent game?" 

This is also a vector we can use to fix the supply chain problem, and one I'm a fan of as it creates an additional choice point for players when deciding what to do with drops.

PopeSigGIF.gif

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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Regardless of your thoughts on WT gear, PopeUrban is right in that we need to drastically increase the yield of all forms of harvesting and along with that we need to put more nodes and more beast/animal mob spawns out there to kill as well. The game worlds feel oddly empty but it's also just too hard to get enough mats that the average player isn't going to do it which just makes the issue worse, along with it being one less activity players have to keep them busy. It could also help solve other problems with the game loop in general.

Right now killing animals seems to not yield any meat at all for cooking beyond the very rare wolf and they only seem good for leather. Why not and why are there so few spawns? And why are ore and stone nodes, trees, and cooking gatherables (herbs, mushrooms, apples, etc.) so hard to come by? Increasing the spawns/nodes of crafting mats gives non-crafters more things to do outside of wandering around farming mobs or hoping for a fight, and right now it just doesn't feel worth it to even try gathering anything (it also makes it more likely to find random small scale PvP if people are constantly wandering around gathering stuff because now it's worth their time). It makes crafted gear and crafted food more worth crafting and cheaper to craft which in turn makes them more available to the rest of us. It's hard to even find people setting up vendors to sell their gear, let alone worrying about price - the few I can find just sell me mob drops (also the EKs need a better way to search/filter).  Also it needs to be said, that with so few spawns of all of this stuff, the game world feels empty and barebones, like it's still in an Alpha state. Put more of this stuff in and not only does it work better with gathering/crafting systems, but it just feels better to play in.

And regarding player vendors - are they only in the EK now and not in the campaign worlds anymore? I seem to remember seeing way more vendors in the campaign worlds before. Either way I'd like to see some in campaign worlds again. I might even suggest adding that as a perk - let's say if you win control of an outpost or some other POI, you get to put your own vendors there to sell stuff to your faction/guild for as long as you own it.

Now not only is gathering more useful and an activity players will want to do instead of just mob grinding/roaming (and it would also make farming animals worth it for more than just leather), but it'll help make crafting more useful, crafted gear/food worth making and selling to the masses, and various POIs more worth taking and defending and fighting over on a map, and a more cohesive game loop.

I'm sure there are holes with this and if it means reducing mob dropped/chest looted items to some extent that's fine. I don't think they should be removed completely - decent starter gear should remain on mobs. Definitely not completed food, though. And I suppose if there's a reduced amount and tier of dropped mob gear, along with more availability of crafted gear, the durability loss is less of an issue if crafters are pooping out gear left and right and selling to people.

Edited by Leiloni
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On 2/22/2021 at 2:26 AM, SAM_BUKA said:

DREGS gear drop even more powerful than Infected. Yet it is still plentiful. Moreover, top-tier drop gear can be simply obtained from the outpost chests. You don't even have to fight boss mobs. Even green gear you can buy from vendor is more powerful than the drop in infected. Check it out on test server.

You are assuming that 6.4 Dregs gear drops will be the same on ACE servers when we get dregs as it is today on the Russian 4G servers. It seems like a reasonable assumption but we won't know if it is that way until ACE pulls the trigger.

[UPDATE] I just looted 2 outpost chests on TEST 6.4 dregs and got nothing better than blue.unknown.pngunknown.png

Edited by MacDeath

macdeath_sig.png

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5 hours ago, MacDeath said:

You are assuming that 6.4 Dregs gear drops will be the same on ACE servers when we get dregs as it is today on the Russian 4G servers. It seems like a reasonable assumption but we won't know if it is that way until ACE pulls the trigger.

[UPDATE] I just looted 2 outpost chests on TEST 6.4 dregs and got nothing better than blue.unknown.pngunknown.png

I actually tested it on Dregs on test too. I wrote about it, as well. The story about RU server was to show an example of active (filled with players) campaign.

See, you also did this experiment and made sure that it is true. If you check gear stats, you'll see that it is very high, equal to most of the purple gear drop from WT.

Plus, chests have a steady weapons drop, much better than WTs.

Edited by SAM_BUKA

Tyrant: you were too tough, they gave up. (10/15/2020)

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