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Small to Mid-Sized Guilds


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6 hours ago, mandalore said:

I think that rubicon has been crossed.  There’s no going back now.  They can’t afford to redo those systems again 

If they didnt need all these different systems for artisan engine features, I would say they floundered about like amateur. Once they figured out the network engine would never be able to provide the performance needed for the game design, they shifted and started pushing other systems and major changes. Same time frame they announced new division at artcraft working on artisan engine. Ever since its been continual design changes. Now we have battle royale and they are even recent talking about tournament and match play. 

Approximately 50 people worked on crowfall for 5 years to go from a playable battle royale game to a playable battle royale game. Seriously, where did that manpower go and what was it spent on because that is a crapton of labor, AAA labor amounts for that kind of progress?

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3 hours ago, rutaq said:

Just to clarify things and to help get the discussion baselined on the reality of the Infected and  Dregs campaigns, I want to review the current game loop then move forward with what the small and medium guilds feel they are missing out on compared to the ZvZ game play.  


Game Loops:

Grinding / Farming:
Levelling Vessels
Levelling Crafters
Levelling Harvesters
Wartribe farming
Elite Mob hunting  (Heralds, Ancients, Elders, King, Chief,etc..)
Thralls

 

Conquering:

Capture God/ Hero Statues
Capturing outposts
Capturing Forts
Sieging

 

Gathering:
Solo Harvesting Resources
Motherloads
Skinning
GraveDigging
Picking Mushrooms/Cooking additives
Pack Pigs

Open World PvP roaming/ganking

Building Keeps/Castle

Divine Favor Cards

*** I am sure I missed a couple items but this covers most of the bases.

 

So which items are small & medium sized guilds excluded from ?



 

They are excluded from keeps and castle, the only important guild-level progression in the game. And via this exclusion, unable to do Divine Favor and Conquest, the only metrics of import. And, with this simple missing endgame loop, a small to medium sized guild derives significantly diminished value from the rest of the gameloops.

The answer is more cities, with expensive ranks and maintenance, and expensive siege initiation. More cities means less demand for each city parcel, expensive ranks and maintenance means guild-level progression, expensive siege initiation means that it's non-trivial for big guilds to wipe a smaller guild just bc they have the manpower - do they want to bear the cost if the reward is a small city?

Edited by McTan
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3 hours ago, rutaq said:

Conquering:

Capture God/ Hero Statues
Capturing outposts
Capturing Forts
Open World PvP roaming/ganking

I am not going to consider grinding for levels or farming/crafting since those are stock standard for every game. Might as well throw in ability to run and jump if that is the case. So what we really have is this list. 

Edited by mystafyi
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2 hours ago, rutaq said:

So putting in the 300% more effort to make a Legendary crafter compared to the Epic Crafter and the HUGE amount of time harvesting Legendary resources is simply too powerful for a 12% increase in power ?

 

Honestly it sounds like this discussion is more about feelings than data.   The power gap in real numbers is small yet the complaining and emotions about the required effort are overblown and self defeating.

Thanks for sharing your estimates, it helps to frame the discussion.

It seems like you're under the impression that you can have a maxed out crafter in 120 hours of solo game play. I haven't maxed out a crafter yet, so I don't know if that is accurate, but judging by what other people on these forums have said, I don't think it is even close.

It also seems like you think all that goes into a crafter are their disciplines and belts. However, that is not the case. A crafter also requires gear, jewelry, and a vessel. There is generally a loop that a guild goes through to improve all of this. There's no feasible way a person could do this solo. 

As far as I understand, the power gap between an epic crafter and a fully built out crafter is significantly more than 12%. Data is more helpful when it's accurate.

There are some examples in this thread (and others): 

 

Edited by Alot
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2 hours ago, Alot said:

Thanks for sharing your estimates, it helps to frame the discussion.

It seems like you're under the impression that you can have a maxed out crafter in 120 hours of solo game play. I haven't maxed out a crafter yet, so I don't know if that is accurate, but judging by what other people on these forums have said, I don't think it is even close.

It also seems like you think all that goes into a crafter are their disciplines and belts. However, that is not the case. A crafter also requires gear, jewelry, and a vessel. There is generally a loop that a guild goes through to improve all of this. There's no feasible way a person could do this solo. 

As far as I understand, the power gap between an epic crafter and a fully built out crafter is significantly more than 12%. Data is more helpful when it's accurate.

A solo player working on a Legendary Disc and Belt crafter would take 150+ hours and multiple characters to cover harvesting disciplines.   The 50 hour estimate for an Epic crafter was built on data from the time it takes me to farm gold and click through the 30 or so Compound Bows and the time it took one of guild mates to farm wood, hide, meat and dust.   The estimate also made some assumptions that the harvesters were progressing as well, using the discs they generated during the 40 hours of material farming for the crafter.

Your note about end game crafters having advance vessels and jewelry is true and making your Necro first would help towards that goal.   As far as how feasible it is that a solo player to achieve is simply a duration of time and effort, a solo player will take longer than a group of 3 players, who will take longer than a 5 man guild, who will take longer than a ten man guild, who will take longer than a 20 man guild, etc...  

I am sorry for not giving you more context on my 12% power difference observation.   The 12% difference between a crafted Epic item and a crafted Legendary item is an estimate made specifically for jewelry that we crafted using a Legendary/ Legendary crafter.  The data is reasonably accurate given the relatively small sample size of creating about 150+ pieces of jewelry spread over green,blue and mostly purple and a few Legendary to test power difference.

One thing you need to be careful with when you continue your argument regarding the power scaling in crafting is that you don't craft and don't actually know the real data you are arguing against.  It is fine to have a emotional feeling on how the game should play but emotions don't do well when trying to support a fact based argument about statistical difference in crafting.

Crowfall certainly poses challenges to solo and very small groups of players,  if those players refuse to work together with others they certainly need to put in more effort if their goal is to become Top Tier, End Game Crafters.   

Given that the game is designed around Guild vs. Guild PvP and not solo or small team of a couple players, I am not sure I should be concerned that players of non compatibile play styles are upset with a game that isn't designed for them.

 

 

Edited by rutaq
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1 minute ago, rutaq said:

Your note about end game crafters having advance vessels and jewelry is true and making your Necro first would help towards that goal.   As far as how feasible it is that a solo player to achieve is simply a duration of time and effort, a solo player will take longer than a group of 3 players, who will take longer than a 5 man guild, who will take longer than a ten man guild, who will take longer than a 20 man guild, etc...  

The problem with it "just taking time" is that for as long as it takes the casuals to catch up, they are playing at a significant disadvantage. If the disadvantage is too significant, it's not fun for either side, and the casuals will (mostly) quit. If the duration of that period is literally the first 3-6 months after launch, I'm afraid that will hurt population permanently.

1 minute ago, rutaq said:

I am sorry for not giving you more context on my 12% power difference observation.   The 12% difference between a crafted Epic item and a crafted Legendary item is an estimate made specifically for jewelry that we crafted using a Legendary/ Legendary crafter.  The data is reasonably accurate given the relatively small sample size of creating about 60 pieces of jewelry.

That is not an appropriate comparison. You need to compare a rare or epic item crafted by an epic crafter to an epic or legendary crafted by an end-game crafter. That's the power gap we need to be concerned about primarily if wartribe gear is removed. We could add rares crafted by near end-game crafters, as those would likely make up the bulk of inventory for sale by players.

Even if it were just 12%, when you compound this with vessels, disciplines, and the other advantages that hardcore players will have, you're talking about a 20%+ power gap, at least. Is that too much? I don't know, but players in other games complain about it a lot. 

1 minute ago, rutaq said:

One thing you need to be careful with when you continue your argument regarding the power scaling in crafting is that you don't craft and don't actually know the real data you are arguing against.  It is fine to have a emotional feeling on how the game should play but emotions don't do well when trying to support a fact based argument about statistical difference in crafting.

Making a lot of assumptions there. I don't currently craft on Live for this wipe. I do craft on Test, and I have crafted in the past. Several other people have shared data on the forums as well. 

This has nothing to do with an emotional feeling as I'm not personally impacted in any way. I will likely not play solo in the future, I'm not typically a casual player, and I'm not concerned with winning a video game. 

The reason I'm bringing up these points is that I want Crowfall to be successful, and population is integral to that happening. There are many advocates for their own guilds and preferences on these forums, but almost no one is trying to put themselves in the shoes of the people the game needs to appeal to in order to be economically viable. A few thousand players in large PvP guilds will not suffice.

1 minute ago, rutaq said:

Crowfall certainly poses challenges to solo and very small groups of players,  if those players refuse to work together with others they certainly need to put in more effort if their goal is to become Top Tier, End Game Crafters.   

Not everyone wants to be crafters. Not everyone wants to join a large guild. Not everyone is a hardcore player. In fact, most people are not. 

1 minute ago, rutaq said:


Given that the game is designed around Guild vs. Guild PvP and not solo or very small group PvP, I am not sure I should be concerned that players of non compatibile play styles are upset with a game that isn't designed for them.

This is the fundamental flaw in your reasoning. It is not feasible to support a 50+ person game studio catering to a total potential population in the low tens of thousands. 

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