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thenebrosity

How Campaigns Are Won: Bloodstone Ruleset Will Fail.

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Currently one of the the ways you win a campaign is by getting more points than your opponent.. you get these points by getting "Bloodstones" that your Tree of Life (guild city flag basically) drops randomly during times that it's vulnerable to pvp.

 

You can choose to deliver these Bloodstones to a specific spot on the map and if you make it there you get a point. You can either choose to deliver the bloodstone or defend your city. If you fail to defend your city, your destroyed tree of life will drop 3 bloodstones which your enemies will then be able yo deliver to the designated areas and sacrifice them for points.

 

Here's what I see happening: A large guild/nation will take over a region of the map and plant multiple Bloodstone Trees near eachother and destroy and rebuild them, effectively farming bloodstones. Guilds will team up and either take turns claiming these stones or work together so that the main guild gets the resources it needs to build and rank up their guild city (likely the guild leader's Eternal Kingdom) and be in a very good position to destroy the competition on the next campaign map.

 

In Shadowbane the Tree of Life (Bloodstone Tree) was invulnerable until a guild gathered enough resources to create a "bane scroll" which allowed them to declare war on a tree. The cost of scrolls was sometimes enough of a deterrent to make some guilds hold off on wasting valuable resources on a siege that wouldn't be winnable.

 

The way it is explained in the Strategy FAQ (http://crowfall.com/#/faq/54e9503393fc8d634e4d690d) Bloodstone trees will have a fixed cycle where trees and the buildings around them are invulnerable and a small window where everything can be attacked (for like two hours). This will encourage the above scenario and will really hurt the game imo..

 

If it doesn't cost you anything to declare war on someone's tree then people will not feel invested in the battle. When a guild works together to gather the resources to create a Bane Scroll and declare war on their enemies then everyone feels invested in the outcome of the war.. instead of "hey guys their bloodstone window is coming up... you wana try to gank them?" sure.. some will join but it's not the same as "We worked hard to gather the resources to beat your ass. All your base are belonging to is.

 

The Bloodstone Ruleset seems more like Shadowbane Mine Windows of Vulnerability than sieges.  Mines were fun fights you had in-between the large battles.. if you forcibly expose the city of a guild on a fixed timer.. sieges will lose their "Oh sh** they just got baned/challenged to war!"... value.


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lol ok.. I wonder if I'll still be able to steal directly from people's inventories.. hrmmm

;)Twitch - Twitter

RIP DOC GONZO

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I disagree entirely.

 

I didn't play SB, but as I understand it, you got 72 hours notice once 'baned' before the battle begins...that in and of itself seems to be a heavily flawed mechanic..'Hey, we're going to attack you during EXACTLY this window of opportunity, raise your defenses.'...

 

This mechanic allows for a wider variety of strategies, especially against organizations lulled into complacency.  It also can add elements of surprise. I'd give examples I have already considered, but why give away tactics that others probably haven't even considered yet? ;)

 

One would also hope you could not destroy your own tree to exploit it, but who knows.

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we had that discussion a lot of times here alrdy mate...

 

 

you'll get a lot of clueless people, who never played a game with siege mechanics arguing with you. people that have no idea how their suggestion will play out; neither short- nor long-term.

 

I gave up already, they will eventually come to the same conclusion we (and other games that tried to do it differently but ultimately chanegd their mind) did :)

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I disagree entirely.

 

I didn't play SB, but as I understand it, you got 72 hours notice once 'baned' before the battle begins...that in and of itself seems to be a heavily flawed mechanic..'Hey, we're going to attack you during EXACTLY this window of opportunity, raise your defenses.'...

 

This mechanic allows for a wider variety of strategies, especially against organizations lulled into complacency.  It also can add elements of surprise. I'd give examples I have already considered, but why give away tactics that others probably haven't even considered yet? ;)

 

One would also hope you could not destroy your own tree to exploit it, but who knows.

 

in SB when you declared war on someone they had the chance to choose when was best for them to defend. If they didn't choose a time within a certain timeframe then you got to choose the time for them.  This was a great system and made sure the NA players weren't forced to play at 3am to defend against Asian guilds. It also gave NA, Asian, etc. guilds a chance to attack a guild and negotiate the best time for both guilds to engage in a "fair" fight if that's what they were looking for.

 

If exposed times are already pre-set then people will be forced to get up at 3 am to fight for a tree they otherwise can't negotiate a time to fight over.

 

The only time an attacker actually had the chance to choose the time was when tree owners no longer played the game and were taking up a good spot on the map. If no one is home you're obviously going to have the chance to choose when to attack.


OQa1xvz.png?1

lol ok.. I wonder if I'll still be able to steal directly from people's inventories.. hrmmm

;)Twitch - Twitter

RIP DOC GONZO

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Yeah I understand what you're saying, you ARE right, but I don't think they will let you destroy your "own" tree or at least I'm assuming there will be a kind of ownership system involved.

 

Anyhows, please visit my post http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/3015-crowfall-end-game-trials-of-the-gods-idea/ it's just dying to get some attention! 

 

ENJOY!


-Truthe Yashikawa

The Lantern Watch - A Crowfall-first guild.  Welcome Home.

http://crowfall.shivtr.com/

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Yeah I understand what you're saying, you ARE right, but I don't think they will let you destroy your "own" tree or at least I'm assuming there will be a kind of ownership system involved.

 

 

Solution: Create Free Account.. make dummy Bloodstone Tree.. win the campaign.


OQa1xvz.png?1

lol ok.. I wonder if I'll still be able to steal directly from people's inventories.. hrmmm

;)Twitch - Twitter

RIP DOC GONZO

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Solution: Create Free Account.. make dummy Bloodstone Tree.. win the campaign.

Except this will be a buy to play game.

So only people with money can pull this off.

 

Pay to win confirmed! (=P)

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in SB when you declared war on someone they had the chance to choose when was best for them to defend. If they didn't choose a time within a certain timeframe then you got to choose the time for them.  This was a great system and made sure the NA players weren't forced to play at 3am to defend against Asian guilds. It also gave NA, Asian, etc. guilds a chance to attack a guild and negotiate the best time for both guilds to engage in a "fair" fight if that's what they were looking for.

 

Nothing about this game seems to be geared towards 'fair', with a number of griefing mechanics already seemingly inset, with people asking for more, with no countering abilities at that.  This is another potential grief mechanic, plain and simple.  You/We can't defend at 3AM? I feel almost as bad for those people/us as I will for myself each time I'm affected by a griefing mechanic...not at all..

 

I'd like to note that people intimately involved in SB have come up with this system, perhaps they have given this a bit more thought than a knee-jerk reaction?  Just maybe...

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I would prefer a more interactive system for defending a town or city than the bloodstone trees. I think it would fit the lore better if town and cities are protected by the blessing of some deity that will last for a few hours, making the city unable to be ransacked. We know the gods are currently fighting one another to be the chief god so they are vane beings, so to get the blessings the players have to make an offering of x amount of resources and the gods will be pleased for the material wealth. The offerings will be made outside the bases in an area in the wilderness where the hunger is more prevalent than other areas and no structures can be built inside that area due to the hunger's corruption.

 

Instead of the bloodstones there should be a pile of some sort of treasure inside the fortification, and the more treasure the place has, the more points the players get. If the players run out of resources, by enemy raids outside the base or just misusing them, the blessing goes down. The god becomes annoyed by the arrogance of the players for not being on time with their offering and lifts their blessing. The gods will all scoff at the players and not allow a new blessing to be placed on that base for a certain amount of time, during which players can steal the treasure, either bringing it to their own bases or possibly keeping it for themselves for certain worlds. Of course this defense system wouldn't work for the dregs since even the gods don't go there, but personally I think the protection of bases in FFA worlds should be based on actual good defense construction instead of a tree.

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Nothing about this game seems to be geared towards 'fair', with a number of griefing mechanics already seemingly inset, with people asking for more, with no countering abilities at that.  This is another potential grief mechanic, plain and simple.  You/We can't defend at 3AM? I feel almost as bad for those people/us as I will for myself each time I'm affected by a griefing mechanic...not at all..

 

I'd like to note that people intimately involved in SB have come up with this system, perhaps they have given this a bit more thought than a knee-jerk reaction?  Just maybe...

 

That's why you discuss the terms of the siege with the people who are attacking you to setup rules so everyone knows you won on equal grounds.. this usually applies when a guild is accusing another guild of only winning because they zerg. The accused then challenges said guild and tells them to set the terms of the battle so they can beat them even if they choose the terms and thus, gain bragging rights. That's what I mean by a "fair" fight.

 

The idea of a Tree of Life or "Bloodstone Tree" is not a new concept to me and many of us here on the forums. I've been an active member of the Beta and Alpha teams for the Shadowbane Emulators that have been in development for the past 5 years.. much of this brainstorming has already been brought up.. and many failed concepts have been scrapped. I'm not simply tossing theory out but experience.


OQa1xvz.png?1

lol ok.. I wonder if I'll still be able to steal directly from people's inventories.. hrmmm

;)Twitch - Twitter

RIP DOC GONZO

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I would prefer a more interactive system for defending a town or city than the bloodstone trees. I think it would fit the lore better if town and cities are protected by the blessing of some deity that will last for a few hours, making the city unable to be ransacked. We know the gods are currently fighting one another to be the chief god so they are vane beings, so to get the blessings the players have to make an offering of x amount of resources and the gods will be pleased for the material wealth. The offerings will be made outside the bases in an area in the wilderness where the hunger is more prevalent than other areas and no structures can be built inside that area due to the hunger's corruption.

 

Instead of the bloodstones there should be a pile of some sort of treasure inside the fortification, and the more treasure the place has, the more points the players get. If the players run out of resources, by enemy raids outside the base or just misusing them, the blessing goes down. The god becomes annoyed by the arrogance of the players for not being on time with their offering and lifts their blessing. The gods will all scoff at the players and not allow a new blessing to be placed on that base for a certain amount of time, during which players can steal the treasure, either bringing it to their own bases or possibly keeping it for themselves for certain worlds. Of course this defense system wouldn't work for the dregs since even the gods don't go there, but personally I think the protection of bases in FFA worlds should be based on actual good defense construction instead of a tree.

 

The Bloodstone Trees are basically Flags in a giant capture the flag game. In SB guilds also had warehouses where they stored some of their resources and maintenance gold that you could destroy and loot.. hopefully they have something like this in-game.


OQa1xvz.png?1

lol ok.. I wonder if I'll still be able to steal directly from people's inventories.. hrmmm

;)Twitch - Twitter

RIP DOC GONZO

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Except they even said the Bloodstone ruleset was designed to give small, mobile guilds a chance. If it fails, it fails. No big deal.

Perhaps a variant of it will come back at a later date, perhaps it never will. At least let them try the current bloodstone idea before deciding, long before you can try it out for yourself, that it can't work as described.

 

The Shadowbane version works better for guilds of similar size, and could possibly be a future version of the Bloodstone ruleset (bringing back old stuff will be a thing over time). You don't very well challenge a guild double your size. The ruleset variant you're suggesting is also a lot slower.

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I would prefer a more interactive system for defending a town or city than the bloodstone trees. I think it would fit the lore better if town and cities are protected by the blessing of some deity that will last for a few hours, making the city unable to be ransacked. We know the gods are currently fighting one another to be the chief god so they are vane beings, so to get the blessings the players have to make an offering of x amount of resources and the gods will be pleased for the material wealth. The offerings will be made outside the bases in an area in the wilderness where the hunger is more prevalent than other areas and no structures can be built inside that area due to the hunger's corruption.

 

Instead of the bloodstones there should be a pile of some sort of treasure inside the fortification, and the more treasure the place has, the more points the players get. If the players run out of resources, by enemy raids outside the base or just misusing them, the blessing goes down. The god becomes annoyed by the arrogance of the players for not being on time with their offering and lifts their blessing. The gods will all scoff at the players and not allow a new blessing to be placed on that base for a certain amount of time, during which players can steal the treasure, either bringing it to their own bases or possibly keeping it for themselves for certain worlds. Of course this defense system wouldn't work for the dregs since even the gods don't go there, but personally I think the protection of bases in FFA worlds should be based on actual good defense construction instead of a tree.

The Bloodstone trees of life mechanic is stated to be only available to small guilds. Larger guilds would have the normal method of defending their strongholds (whatever that will be).

Having said that, This does look to be a big opportunity for abusing a game mechanic, as stated.


I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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Except they even said the Bloodstone ruleset was designed to give small, mobile guilds a chance. If it fails, it fails. No big deal.

Perhaps a variant of it will come back at a later date, perhaps it never will. At least let them try the current bloodstone idea before deciding, long before you can try it out for yourself, that it can't work as described.

 

The Shadowbane version works better for guilds of similar size, and could possibly be a future version of the Bloodstone ruleset (bringing back old stuff will be a thing over time). You don't very well challenge a guild double your size. The ruleset variant you're suggesting is also a lot slower.

 

That's the point of the post, I believe the Bloodstone ruleset will actually hurt smaller guilds that can't afford to create dummy Bloodstone trees to farm stones from. I'm not advocating that we use Shadowbane's approach, pre se, but at least in that systems smaller guilds were encouraged to work together to take out a larger foe. The Bloodstone approach will probably just encourage smaller guilds to constantly try to gank eachother while the larger guilds ROFLStomp them. 


OQa1xvz.png?1

lol ok.. I wonder if I'll still be able to steal directly from people's inventories.. hrmmm

;)Twitch - Twitter

RIP DOC GONZO

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That's the point of the post, I believe the Bloodstone ruleset will actually hurt smaller guilds that can't afford to create dummy Bloodstone trees to farm stones from. I'm not advocating that we use Shadowbane's approach, pre se, but at least in that systems smaller guilds were encouraged to work together to take out a larger foe. The Bloodstone approach will probably just encourage smaller guilds to constantly try to gank eachother while the larger guilds ROFLStomp them. 

That is a legitimate concern. However, I think we should see how it actually plays first. That being said, the devs should consider your warning and make tweaks early.

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Can I also safely say that if the number of blood stone tree is limited to each faction/guild, the issue have been scaled down a little?

I'm still not very sure of how the time frame window mechanics is going to work out though.

 

I guess there are also the mechanics of hunger and warmth that haven't been added to the equation yet.

 

edited: added info

Edited by XephRy

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  Right now we really don't  know enough to be absolutely sure whether what the OP is positing is actually possible-there are any number of restrictions that could prevent it.  And frankly that's the kind of abuse that gets patch-fixed quick or lacking an obvious solution removed.  No sense doomsaying about it when we don't now all the facts and it would be a shortlived problem at worst...

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