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Isn't decay reduction on tools for vip a bit p2w?


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I'd just be careful that there is a slippery slope about how much we give leeway to the developers, especially if we're agreeing that we're paying for advantages. Since there could be an advantage that might matter more in common. Something, as mentioned, like Decay reduction on weapons and gear.

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It's certainly not zero advantage like a cosmetic would be. But it also doesn't give a direct pvp bonus. It might bother some people. Others may consider it an acceptable "pay for convenience." I

The cost to make tools is minimal, especially once the blue belt is equipped. No one is going to feel compelled to buy VIP for this, but it's a decent perk for those who do buy VIP. 

IMO, it's PfA (Pay for Advantage) not P2W. And, if VIP doesn't offer ANY advantages who will pay for it? ACE needs ways to increase revenue.

4 hours ago, MacDeath said:

Calling it p2w doesn't MAKE it p2w. It just doesn't help you win.

Unless someone can literally insert cash and hit a button and they instantly win, there isn't really such a thing as "P2W." I don't know of many games like this. Slot machines?

P2W is a empty term that doesn't have a single meaning.

It's just a lot more catchy then pay for advantage or pay for convenience which both can and likely do help someone win more then they don't.

Anything that is decreasing or removing the effort, time, skill, knowledge necessary to perform in a game is "P2W" to me.

If I was able to buy a Legendary vessel in the shop, it doesn't magically allow me to win anything. It does however put me a head of the competition (potentially) and gives a power advantage over those without Legendary.

It's all subjective and based on what we are all comfortable with. Just because someone says something isn't P2W, doesn't make it so. Can see in the comments, people acknowledging it might sorta kind of be P2W and making excuses and expressing what they are or aren't comfortable with.

Crowfall Kickstarter: 

Is there a micropayment shop?

There is a limited micropayment shop, which can only be used to buy things that do NOT affect the balance of the game.

Can I buy advancement, or powerful items from the shop?

No. The shop only sells cosmetic (non-balance affecting) items, game time, and additional space for EK.

What someone considered "powerful" "balance affecting" or providing "advancement" might differ, but IMO it's rather hard to avoid such things once a company goes past pure cosmetics. I agree with others that unless VIP has something of value, people aren't going to pay for it as that's how it works. Cosmetics aren't going to cut it. So pretty much guarantee ACE is going to tip toe the line and offer "it's not that bad" balance affecting things because it isn't P2W. Why isn't it P2W? Because they said so... 😉

Edited by APE

 


 

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4 hours ago, Thon said:

I think if that's the sentiment above, it'd be better to be transparent to new players coming into the beta or at launch: that there is a p2w, but it's such a tolerable amount that it doesn't matter.

Companies aren't going to do that. It's bad for business.

Much easier to let players learn it on their own after they've bought the game and are then at a point they have to decide to continue, likely have to continue paying for things, or quit and lose the money they put into it. That's how many business models work.

I'm fine with a certain amount of pay for advantage/convenience, but I just don't like when companies flat out say "we don't offer XYZ" due to their narrow definition of what XYZ are compared to others. Rather they not say anything at all and let players figure it out instead of trying to be a bit shady about it. ACE was called out before due to their original stance on "P2W" but VIP's earlier perks were rather "P2W" in my opinion and others. They ditched that model and have yet to come up with a lot since.

Edited by APE

 


 

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tool recay reduction means:

u walk with less tools cause they last for longer (so u drop less after 6.5 with the 50% chance of dropping)
waste less resources so u have more to use with gear and other stuff
reduce your necessity of having that disc that reduces tool decay and opens up for more options

so yeah, even if its not a huge advantage, the direction witch they chose to go trying to make VIP more interesting is a bit p2w and with more choices then that ppl might start questioning the direction the devs wants the economy of the game to go

Having to pay to play a BETA game and paying VIP on top of that is a bit questionable in itself
 

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5 hours ago, 1Vulp said:

Having to pay to play a BETA game and paying VIP on top of that is a bit questionable in itself

You don't actually have to pay to play the beta. You can sign up for free on the website. You do have to pay if you don't want to wait for your beta group to get invited, though. Lots of people who never paid have been invited to the beta already.

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14 hours ago, 1Vulp said:

tool recay reduction means:

u walk with less tools cause they last for longer (so u drop less after 6.5 with the 50% chance of dropping)
waste less resources so u have more to use with gear and other stuff
reduce your necessity of having that disc that reduces tool decay and opens up for more options

so yeah, even if its not a huge advantage, the direction witch they chose to go trying to make VIP more interesting is a bit p2w and with more choices then that ppl might start questioning the direction the devs wants the economy of the game to go

Having to pay to play a BETA game and paying VIP on top of that is a bit questionable in itself
 

You do not have to pay for anything. It is a choice.

3 hours ago, Soulreaver said:

There are already badges in the game giving u Tool Decay reduction... just saying.

This is what immediately came to my mind, certain players already have a badge that reduces tool decay, among other badges.

 

More to the point, it might be a bit more convenient and I suppose if you really want to split hairs it is P2W, which is a generally accepted term in gaming that refers to being able to purchase advantage, I don't think it needs further definition. At any rate, the tools are still going to be made, and risk being lost, I don't see this as the thing that will make/break the economy.

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9 hours ago, Jah said:

You don't actually have to pay to play the beta. You can sign up for free on the website. You do have to pay if you don't want to wait for your beta group to get invited, though. Lots of people who never paid have been invited to the beta already.

You do if ure trying to bring your guild to this game, that is supposed to be play as a guild since small groups have no chance to compete for content in it. U can wait for couple months to bring all the boys but is not a really smart idea. 

And if money is what they need, what about fixing the prices for diff countries, do some reajustament of prices: right now i can pay 1/4 of the price of the game in R$ (Brazil coin) compared to US Dollars for the game while EU ppl will pay around 2 to 3 times the price of it for paying in Euro. Instead of adding VIP payments why dont u just stop losing money with such a trivial coin poorly made dergs.

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4 minutes ago, 1Vulp said:

You do if ure trying to bring your guild to this game, that is supposed to be play as a guild since small groups have no chance to compete for content in it. U can wait for couple months to bring all the boys but is not a really smart idea. 

And if money is what they need, what about fixing the prices for diff countries, do some reajustament of prices: right now i can pay 1/4 of the price of the game in R$ (Brazil coin) compared to US Dollars for the game while EU ppl will pay around 2 to 3 times the price of it for paying in Euro. Instead of adding VIP payments why dont u just stop losing money with such a trivial coin poorly made dergs.

Hmmm, so if I were to change my address to somewhere in Brazil I would get a HUGE price reduction on Crowfall shop items?

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1 minute ago, MacDeath said:

Hmmm, so if I were to change my address to somewhere in Brazil I would get a HUGE price reduction on Crowfall shop items?

I think I have a buddy on embassy duty in Rio, I might just use his address! Kidding, I have heard of many games regionalizing their prices, and I doubt very seriously EU players are paying 2 - 3 times more than US players, taxes will cause a bit of a difference but not 2 to 3 times the amount. That is just hyperbole I would hope.

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23 minutes ago, Ajokoira said:

I think I have a buddy on embassy duty in Rio, I might just use his address! Kidding, I have heard of many games regionalizing their prices, and I doubt very seriously EU players are paying 2 - 3 times more than US players, taxes will cause a bit of a difference but not 2 to 3 times the amount. That is just hyperbole I would hope.

It's priced the same amount of Euros as it is USD, so, for example Something that's priced at $49.99 USD is also priced at €49.99

Patron Backer Pack
€49.99*
 
so at today exchange rate we pay 20% more: 

1 Euro equals

1,20 United States Dollar

Edited by MacDeath

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18 hours ago, APE said:

I'm fine with a certain amount of pay for advantage/convenience, but I just don't like when companies flat out say "we don't offer XYZ" due to their narrow definition of what XYZ are compared to others. Rather they not say anything at all and let players figure it out instead of trying to be a bit shady about it. ACE was called out before due to their original stance on "P2W" but VIP's earlier perks were rather "P2W" in my opinion and others. They ditched that model and have yet to come up with a lot since.

I agree.  Crowfall needs to make money in order to continue to develop content in the game moving forward.  If VIP is not worth buying, no one will.  I know I won't buy it if all it has to offer is a few cosmetic items.  The line for me between acceptable P2W and unacceptable P2W is gear or items being offered that quite literally have amazing stats on it that quite literally swing a fight in your favor VS items that merely help lessen the grind a little or help you advance your character development a little after.  The second example is acceptable, the first is not.  In my opinion, Crowfall needs to do two things.  One, Be open and transparent with things and NOT try to twist words and definitions in order to create a better marketing message and two, don't sweat the stigma of "P2W".  If the stigma of P2W was such a bad thing there would NOT be games out there that are clearly P2W and yet people still play them and those games still succeed.  As long as Crowfall is not crossing that line I mentioned earlier than I'm fine.  Seriously Crowfall, Make VIP worthwhile or myself and others WILL NOT BUY IT.  simple as that.  

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I did find something that bothers me though.  I looked over at the crowfall store and saw that they are selling a year of VIP for $139.99.  Fair enough, they need to make money.  I looked at the description and it said "Take advantage of the convenience and value of the VIP Membership, this purchase entitles you to 1 year of VIP Membership."  What value are they speaking of?  Have they fully committed to EXACTLY what VIP will entail and what your getting when you buy it?  This tool thing is possibly one but what else is there??  I was not aware they they had fully committed to the EXACT perks of VIP and if they have, I couldn't find it actually listed anywhere.  The fact that they are claiming something is "convenience and value" without actually listing what your getting for your money seems dishonest to me.  The sellier i.e crowfall doesn't determine if something is a convenience and value, The buyer does by actually buying said product.  The seller can claim this all they want but if the buyer doesn't agree, then the buyer won't buy which means there should be a very clear black and white listing of what exactly your getting for your money in the description.  If they haven't fully committed to the EXACT VIP perks, then they should come up with a very generic description that doesn't make any potentially unfounded claims like the current one does.  Its little manipulations in language like this that I despise in companies and why I tend to not trust many companies more and more.  Don't become like many other companies out there Crowfall or you will lose my trust...

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Albion Online was way more successful than Crowfall during its alpha/beta, and Crowfall would be a huge success to match Albion Online's live service game business results.

Albion Online's premium or VIP option allows things like the following (last I checked):

  • Collect 50% Silver and loot from mobs
  • 50% increased Gathering yield
  • 100% Farming yield and Animal growth times on your player island
  • 50% Reduced Market tax

The territory control, open-world PvP players and market have by-and-large indicated with their time and purchasing power that those kinds of things are OK - as exemplified by the thousands of people who play and pump money into Albion Online.

Those things are so far beyond what ACE is proposing that I feel anybody using the term Pay-to-Win in this context is being ridiculous.

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1 hour ago, DocTrine said:

Albion Online was way more successful than Crowfall during its alpha/beta, and Crowfall would be a huge success to match Albion Online's live service game business results.

but in albion u can buy VIP with in game currency bud
 

2 hours ago, Drizzzt said:

Crowfall needs to make money in order to continue to develop content in the game moving forward.

and thats the catch, if they reeealy need to make money in order to continue, why can they be so careless about the in game store in the first place???

2 hours ago, MacDeath said:

It's priced the same amount of Euros as it is USD, so, for example Something that's priced at $49.99 USD is also priced at €49.99

Patron Backer Pack
€49.99*
 
so at today exchange rate we pay 20% more: 

1 Euro equals

1,20 United States Dollar

And BRL is worth 1/5 the US dollar atm. Witch means that i can buy the whole store for 1/5 the price if i want to.

Edit: or anyone that changes their location

And here are we discussing about the meaning of P2W 

Edited by 1Vulp
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5 hours ago, Drizzzt said:

The line for me between acceptable P2W and unacceptable P2W is gear or items being offered that quite literally have amazing stats on it that quite literally swing a fight in your favor VS items that merely help lessen the grind a little or help you advance your character development a little after.

What about selling different types of vessels, gear, wood, gold, dust and other such things? Would that be okay if they were just regular items that anyone could technically obtain in-game? If it was standard items and not "amazing stats" that gave no extra advantage. What about lvl boosters like an instant lvl 32 sacrifice item?

As you mentioned, it is a line that we all have. For some these things might be way too much while others might have no issue with them. Tricky part is a company finding the balance and a player base that will pay for whatever is offered.

Will be interesting to see what ACE tries pre and post launch. Guessing many of us have played a game or two where the devs claimed one thing pre-launch, numbers tanked, and they had to change direction to stay afloat. Don't see Crowfall having anything to avoid this currently. When most popular MMOs are F2P and offer questionable advantage/convenience subs and shops, seems fairly likely this one will follow. Being a game about player conflict with winners/losers, it might not play out as well as games where PVP doesn't have the same end conditions and results.

 


 

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4 hours ago, 1Vulp said:

but in albion u can buy VIP with in game currency bud
 

You sound unaware of the plan for players to be able to trade VIP tokens with each other. 

That makes ANYTHING VIP non P2W by default, because there will be an in game way, through other players, to acquire it. 

The reason you don't see any part of that economy yet, is that VIP is not really being used now, other than as part of the test parameters for packages that don't have VIP. 

 

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41 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

You sound unaware of the plan for players to be able to trade VIP tokens with each other. 

That makes ANYTHING VIP non P2W by default, because there will be an in game way, through other players, to acquire it. 

The reason you don't see any part of that economy yet, is that VIP is not really being used now, other than as part of the test parameters for packages that don't have VIP. 

 

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You Can't Be A Genius, If You Aren't The Slightest Bit Insane.

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8 hours ago, 1Vulp said:

but in albion u can buy VIP with in game currency bud
 

and thats the catch, if they reeealy need to make money in order to continue, why can they be so careless about the in game store in the first place???

And BRL is worth 1/5 the US dollar atm. Witch means that i can buy the whole store for 1/5 the price if i want to.

Edit: or anyone that changes their location

And here are we discussing about the meaning of P2W 

That is great but they have to make concessions for differing economies. If every thing was USD, countries with more robust economies would have no issue paying monthly fee's/game (luxury) prices etc. where people in countries with struggling economies would be hard pressed to justify paying for something that is not necessary. It's just another way to garner a larger audience.

As far as prices and their "carelessness" about the game store, which do you feel like they should focus on? Developing and refining the in game systems or put that on full stop to sort out the store? They have to prioritize, and frankly I am hoping the store is the bottom of the list.

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