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Make guards in keeps killable during off-siege hours


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Boost small scale PvP, boost the relevance of small guilds. Allow keeps to be raided. They should not be a house-hiding refuge during non siege times. 

Not only should the guards be killable, there should be a hole in the wall just like the current "bug" with castles. There should be a non guinea/fae entry point and it should be someone's job to watch it. 

Afking in a keep does nothing for the game, it makes new players that are uninterested in zerg guilds have further incentive to quit the game. Less content that reminds you of house hiding in other games. Get rid of keep hiding in Crowfall! 

Edited by Parallel
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  • Parallel changed the title to Make guards in keeps killable during off-siege hours

This was tried, it sucked, only the craft bench gankers had any fun. 

Can't build a game around only appealing to the 24/7 hard core faction of the game.

I approve of the idea of eventually having a dial/toggle for this when spinning up one of dozens of campaigns. As with most of these ideas that are a personal/playstyle preference, it would be better to have a dial and let players pick the rules they want to play under, than trying to cram everyone into a one size fits all box.

Unfortunately we only have one box at a time so far, so that box NEEDS to be accommodating to a lower common denominator than what can eventually be put into options. 

 

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1 hour ago, Parallel said:

Boost small scale PvP, boost the relevance of small guilds. Allow keeps to be raided. They should not be a house-hiding refuge during non siege times. 

Not only should the guards be killable, there should be a hole in the wall just like the current "bug" with castles. There should be a non guinea/fae entry point and it should be someone's job to watch it. 

Afking in a keep does nothing for the game, it makes new players that are uninterested in zerg guilds have further incentive to quit the game. Less content that reminds you of house hiding in other games. Get rid of keep hiding in Crowfall! 

 

That is the way it use to be.

A lot of the newer players have been asking for stuff that was deliberately patched out by ACE like a year or more ago.

I wonder if ACE should weigh in on it again, or maybe we dig up the patch notes or Q/A video where they talked about it.

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Not all changes are good for the genre. The current population of this game is not a PvP focused population, they are a point and objective based population that shuns PvP. 

I think the launch population will attract a lot more PvPers like myself who enjoy combat instead of point collection and ACE should start thinking about appealing more to who they advertise to. 

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21 minutes ago, Parallel said:

Not all changes are good for the genre. The current population of this game is not a PvP focused population, they are a point and objective based population that shuns PvP. 

I think the launch population will attract a lot more PvPers like myself who enjoy combat instead of point collection and ACE should start thinking about appealing more to who they advertise to. 

 

I think it is more of a scenario that people realize what it takes to win Dregs campaigns and so they optimize that. 

People use to kill the guards before, it didn't make more PvP, people just did it when nobody was around, because it is easier that way.

I don't think they did that because they don't want PvP, they did that because it was the most optimal way to win -in the grand scheme of things - that is to say, the campaign.

Seeing as how Dregs seems to be intended to be more than a deathmatch, I can understand that logic.

Similarly, not building up walls around one's keep seems like a great way to attract people to fight, but a poor way to win Dregs.

People who don't care about winning Dregs and rather just fight all the time probably will just funnel to Hunger Dome to be honest.

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I really don't want to be offensive and name call but this is the exact logic of a carebear.

You are denying people who arent in mega zergs from open world content in an open world game and telling them to go to an instance to get fights. This will kill the game's population and you are an example of who the devs should NOT be listening to unless they want to follow a direction of a non-PvP game that has some PvP elements like World of Warcraft. 

Part of a "Throne War" should be keeping your "Throne" secure without invulnerable guards. You shouldn't be allowed to hide in the open world, you can already hide in Temples, Infected, and now you can hide in Hungerdomes.

Hungerdomes is NOT a replacement for open world PvP.  Arguing from this position will only push the OPEN WORLD part of the game into the ground. 

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22 minutes ago, Parallel said:

I really don't want to be offensive and name call but this is the exact logic of a carebear.

You are denying people who arent in mega zergs from open world content in an open world game and telling them to go to an instance to get fights. This will kill the game's population and you are an example of who the devs should NOT be listening to unless they want to follow a direction of a non-PvP game that has some PvP elements like World of Warcraft. 

Part of a "Throne War" should be keeping your "Throne" secure without invulnerable guards. You shouldn't be allowed to hide in the open world, you can already hide in Temples, Infected, and now you can hide in Hungerdomes.

Hungerdomes is NOT a replacement for open world PvP.  Arguing from this position will only push the OPEN WORLD part of the game into the ground. 

 

I'm not offended, because I didn't design this game mode called Dregs, I also don't think I ever said I fully disagree with you other than to try and describe why I think players behave the way they do in Dregs, and to point out that ACE specifically changed away from what you described, and that the older players have already witnessed the outcome of what you described. 

I personally don't think Dregs is much fun, and when I do play in it I mostly just run around to find people to fight. I actually want less protections for things that gate open world content like the rewards of forts. So in a way I think I agree with you on some level. I just have seen that what you describe doesn't pan out by actually observing in this actual game the different versions. I also don't believe it will change fundamentally with new players. People optimize for success. Succeeding in Dregs means holding keeps.

That being said, this game has had plenty of clamoring for things like the removal of siege windows (which we use to play without so we know what happens without them) and it seems to usually come from people who are unable to or unwilling to hold territory in the game.

ACE rarely listens to people like me, this isn't the game I wanted. 

 

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1 hour ago, Parallel said:

It's a great idea, you just don't like PvP. 

I mean no one asked to get rid of carebears from the game, I just want to make it less carebear. Sorry if I offended your kind. 

 

A lot more people than you realize probably agree with some of your ideas, but you come out of the gates with a toxic-seeming attitude and a chip on your shoulder. This community has seen so many with that personality. Do you sincerely believe ACE will take notice of you when you're like that?

After all you don't need to convince us. We don't make the game. ACE has much of this time done tons of things we never asked for or wanted. They're making their own game.

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44 minutes ago, DocTrine said:

That being said, this game has had plenty of clamoring for things like the removal of siege windows (which we use to play without so we know what happens without them) and it seems to usually come from people who are unable to or unwilling to hold territory in the game.

Those whiney players that cant play in the limited windows can just go find another game to play..... oh wait.

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3 hours ago, Arkade said:

Forcing people to defend 24/7 is a bad idea.

It's not like you are defending in order to lose a keep, it's defending the build up between, which allows small scale pvp to occur.  Have a player camp the node and to repel attacks.  

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I am going to somewhat/mostly agree with you Parallel.

Is 24/7 sieging a good thing? No.

Is 24/7 harassment a good thing? Yes. I think you should be able to kill the guards albeit not so easily.

I think keeps should take less resources to build but suffer damage 24/7. A keep should be a safer place but not a sanctuary.

 

Darkfall: UW is my favorite game of the genre so far and I think they got sieges pretty to close to right. Anyone and everyone could come along and beat on your base 24/7 but you could only lose it during windows from a handshake mechanic so to speak.

 

I think more groups, myself personally included, would be more open to random PVP encounters if there wasn't such a huge econ/itemization cliff. If I have less time to play than someone else, I have less time to gear myself similarly thus am playing at a continuous disadvantage; often so much of a disadvantage that its not possible to win even if we were of equal skill. That is the deterrent to PVP. People want to feel like they have a chance sometimes.

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3 hours ago, Funeraldirector said:

It's not like you are defending in order to lose a keep, it's defending the build up between, which allows small scale pvp to occur.  Have a player camp the node and to repel attacks.  

That's not how it actually works or did work when it was possible.  

Part of owning a keep is having crafting tables to work on, and part of the value in them is the bonus over the temple tables in the form of a "thrall" buff.

This puts crafters, who are often off hours players, who are basically chained to the table/chest window for periods of at least 30 minutes at a time, totally focused on building stuff, and in bodies and gear designed for crafting.

IF and WHEN it was possible to harass, kill, and steal MASSIVE AMOUNTS of materials because unlike harvesters or people roaming the world, the crafter has to carry and expose TONS of different materials. 

What it resulted in was raids that were low risk (no combat players really defending the crafters, attackers can elect to only bring gear along that won't drop) and unfathomably high rewards garnered by looting said crafters after they were basically insta killed. 

The end result was a bleed out of players leaving the game who lost tens of hours of harvesting work, in mere seconds to gankers.  

It did NOT result in more PvP. it resulted in FAR FAR LESS of both PVP and player interest.

It's a terrible idea, both on paper, and in practice, but I would be more than happy if ACE made it a dial so we can watch just how much it is hated with fresh eye's every time some e-peen warrior with zero experience in what it actually turns the game into decides that killing helpless unprepared players makes for good "PvP". 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
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11 hours ago, DocTrine said:

 

I'm not offended, because I didn't design this game mode called Dregs, I also don't think I ever said I fully disagree with you other than to try and describe why I think players behave the way they do in Dregs, and to point out that ACE specifically changed away from what you described, and that the older players have already witnessed the outcome of what you described. 

I personally don't think Dregs is much fun, and when I do play in it I mostly just run around to find people to fight. I actually want less protections for things that gate open world content like the rewards of forts. So in a way I think I agree with you on some level. I just have seen that what you describe doesn't pan out by actually observing in this actual game the different versions. I also don't believe it will change fundamentally with new players. People optimize for success. Succeeding in Dregs means holding keeps.

That being said, this game has had plenty of clamoring for things like the removal of siege windows (which we use to play without so we know what happens without them) and it seems to usually come from people who are unable to or unwilling to hold territory in the game.

ACE rarely listens to people like me, this isn't the game I wanted. 

 

There are many ways to 'win' in dregs. Holding keeps is just one of them (although a very important strategy)

macdeath_sig.png

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If you hold something in open world you should damn well be able to protect it. And not just during the 1 hour window every couple of days. If an Alliance can’t keep the crafters safe from ganking, or the crafter isn’t aware that guards are dying around him, that’s on him. But don’t sit there and give us tools to infiltrate only to have invulnerable guards that hit harder than some of the best geared players when they are ranked up. Guards should be a deterrent, but even at high rank, not an  almost impenetrable obstacle. 
 

Keeping your territory safe should be just as important as the static points your keep provides. Don’t want to risk loosing your mats? Craft during prime time with a group of player guards. Oh it’s boring for them? Don’t craft in your keep. 
 

if we start considering that unfair, maybe we should start looking at making players invulnerable when there is more than an x ratio of allies to enemies? But I’m sure the 40 man zergs that run over people running around solo would complain about that to. 

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if they have the tech (and as it would be interesting they obviously wont have) they could perhaps create a loot protection statue (or whatver) that protect deaths inside keeps from dropping anything.

Make it so attacker have other objectives (perhaps destroying buildings) and now you can just attack people inside their keep. You wouldnt be able to grief them (and looting crafters was closer to griefing than pvp content) but you could engage in some fun fights.

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On 3/22/2021 at 9:10 AM, DocTrine said:

 

That is the way it use to be.

A lot of the newer players have been asking for stuff that was deliberately patched out by ACE like a year or more ago.

I wonder if ACE should weigh in on it again, or maybe we dig up the patch notes or Q/A video where they talked about it.

It always amazes me the lack of research that goes into these topics. A lot of what is being suggested could be avoided or at least presented with fresh ideas. But I see a lot of posts like this, toxic "if you don't agree with me then you must be a carebear" etc.

 

24/7 defense is a bad idea. Having said that, if I can kill the guard then get my crafter in there to use the crafting tables, I like that idea. Keeps/Forts/Castles should not be able to be taken outside of agreed upon siege times, it is ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

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