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Game Direction - Losing Crowfall as an MMORPG Throne War


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On 4/1/2021 at 9:49 AM, galvia said:

I agree with a lot of this, so I'm only going to comment on "Easy come, easy go".

"Easy come, easy go" has lost it's original meaning. It is meant to apply to the process of acquiring stuff to be viable (and consequently losing it). We have departed from that applying to the player and their own agency/actions and applying it purely to systems designed to keep a new player logged in.

The wartribe loot system at it's core is a good idea, I've agreed with it since it came out. The issue is that it has basically overtaken the entire economy in order to keep a fresh player competitive with a guild of 50~ putting all of their time into improving their logistics. You should be able to login and equip some temporary wartribe gear to get started in a campaign, but it shouldn't be the only thing you wear until the absolute late game in crafting. This causes all sorts of problems with the loop that you've mentioned.

A few things you didn't mention that are worth bringing up. Player vendors are currently stocking:

  1. Wartribe gear.
  2. Stuff you can't get out of wartribes like vessels, quivers, toxins etc.
  3. Extras from their massive crafting grind in an attempt to overcome the Wartribe gear hurdle

This causes problems, because it basically creates two states in crafting logistics. Wartribe gear (months even with active grinding) and then Legendary/Legendary disc + belt + potentially vessel and gear. Otherwise it isn't worth it to craft gear.

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It is very important to keep barriers of entry low. Hungerdome is a great mode to introduce players to what the MMO can feel like. Wartribe gear is a great way to get someone equipped without needing to bash rocks. We still need to have something to engage people who want to push past the surface level of the game.

I agree with this.

However, the game needs more than just adjustments to the economy loop. The game needs more meaningful activities for players on an hour to hour basis other than just farming warttribes (which can be based in the economy), and it needs an absolute overhaul to the PvP.

Shadowbane's combat was never good. This game is largely emulating shadowbane's combat but with pseudo-targeting. There is very little meaningful play/counterplay, and very few situational defensive cooldowns, skills that adjust positioning, and even the crowd control manages to feel bland and spammy.

The game needs a jesus patch on both gameplay activities/economy, and combat, to achieve a reasonably good release.

 

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Crowfall is quickly moving away from an RPG, from an MMO, and from a throne war simulator and morphing into a MOBA (yes, even the "MMO" side of it).  I'm going to start by highlighting how this occurr

Campaign worlds are going to be where you farm discs and materials to make vessels for an advantage in HungerDome.  There are only 2 things you can progress in Crowfall. Your Vessel/Discs an

I think in addition to what's been said, free city building will help a lot in campaign progression. It shouldnt take a few hours to build a keep because you import a seed and building mats. It should

This post has reached 200 replies, which means there's a lot to talk about here, but I hope we all agree that something needs to happen.  The specifics can be argued over, but the current systems are NOT making Crowfall fun.  Since this post, 6.51 has moved to the live environment, and many more issues were introduced that just make the game less fun, while none of the actually issues brought up in the original post were addressed. 

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On 4/4/2021 at 8:03 PM, Jah said:

Depends on who you are marketing to. Some people prefer what the campaigns offer, other prefer what a battle royal has to offer.

I, for one, am much more interested in playing Crowfall campaigns than Hunger Domes.

Jah and exactly how many people are playing?  This game needs to appeal to more people then diehard winterblades.  I regret every penny I spent in this game.  Virtually everything from voxels to passive training from original vision did not make it into the game.

The last time I tried to play we couldn't even do a 20vs20 without serious lag.  Zones were locked out because to many people were in them (can't remember zone limits now).  Game was a hot mess and is more a niche game then shadowbane was.  

Ya, I know "tech limitation".  

 

Oh ya what do I do with the years of ViP I have as well.  Have they even figured out ViP yet?

Edited by Nakawe
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1 hour ago, Nakawe said:

Jah and exactly how many people are playing?  This game needs to appeal to more people then diehard winterblades.  I regret every penny I spent in this game.  Virtually everything from voxels to passive training from original vision did not make it into the game.

The last time I tried to play we couldn't even do a 20vs20 without serious lag.  Zones were locked out because to many people were in them (can't remember zone limits now).  Game was a hot mess and is more a niche game then shadowbane was.  

Ya, I know "tech limitation".  

 

Oh ya what do I do with the years of ViP I have as well.  Have they even figured out ViP yet?

Zones:  Now about 185 and we've seen one lockout in the past four+ Dregs.

VIP: Allows you to respec at will, reduces food need and mount/tool decay were on test, not sure which made it to live.

20v20: Currently doable without any crazy performance issues as of 6.4, haven't see one since 6.51 landed.

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13 minutes ago, Van_Zant said:

20v20: Currently doable without any crazy performance issues as of 6.4, haven't see one since 6.51 landed.

Thats quite subjective. What do you consider 'doable' or 'crazy performance issues' ?  I have to ask since I have seen sub 30FPS in large combats, which for many is not 'doable' for an action pvp combat system with subpar graphics in 2021.

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19 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

Thats quite subjective. What do you consider 'doable' or 'crazy performance issues' ?  I have to ask since I have seen sub 30FPS in large combats, which for many is not 'doable' for an action pvp combat system with subpar graphics in 2021.

If yr seeing sub 30fps in 20v20, it may be a PC or settings issue - reports from across Death are largely satisfactory (consistently at or above 30 fps, no hitching).

Now if we're talking 60v60 in or near a castle, different story.

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2 hours ago, Nakawe said:

The last time I tried to play we couldn't even do a 20vs20 without serious lag.  Zones were locked out because to many people were in them (can't remember zone limits now).  Game was a hot mess and is more a niche game then shadowbane was.  

How long ago was that?

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43 minutes ago, Van_Zant said:

If yr seeing sub 30fps in 20v20, it may be a PC or settings issue - reports from across Death are largely satisfactory (consistently at or above 30 fps, no hitching).

Now if we're talking 60v60 in or near a castle, different story.

Satisfactory bare minimum performance with likely decent gaming machines with relatively low numbers in a fight and very low numbers actually on a map/server is unfortunate at this point. I'm still waiting for the "optimization comes later" and all the wishful thinking to be realized. 

 


 

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11 hours ago, RobbenDumarsch said:

The game needs more meaningful activities for players on an hour to hour basis other than just farming warttribes (which can be based in the economy), and it needs an absolute overhaul to the PvP.

You must of missed Caravans and all the chests they've added. What else could someone want from a "PVP" game? 😄

 


 

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3 hours ago, damebix said:

This post has reached 200 replies, which means there's a lot to talk about here, but I hope we all agree that something needs to happen.  The specifics can be argued over, but the current systems are NOT making Crowfall fun.  Since this post, 6.51 has moved to the live environment, and many more issues were introduced that just make the game less fun, while none of the actually issues brought up in the original post were addressed. 

I've been a Crowfall fan for a long time... but today I (sadly) agree with you. The 6.510 brings even more things which make the game experience less fun.

Tyrant: you were too tough, they gave up. (10/15/2020)

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39 minutes ago, APE said:

You must of missed Caravans and all the chests they've added. What else could someone want from a "PVP" game? 😄

Things to fight over are good for a PvP game.

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48 minutes ago, APE said:

Satisfactory bare minimum performance with likely decent gaming machines with relatively low numbers in a fight and very low numbers actually on a map/server is unfortunate at this point. I'm still waiting for the "optimization comes later" and all the wishful thinking to be realized. 

To be fair, my rig is a bit dated with an i7-8700k and 1080ti. Sadly, if I upgraded to the top, an 11-900 and 3090 it still would only net me approx 30% gain for a paltry sum of 2,000$USD, not including the MB and PS upgrade costs that would entail. Now if that would equate to 30% in-game performance gains, I dont know since many times my utilization is not loaded. 

If that is needed to get adequate performance... Crap, I might have to upgrade power panel if that outlet is going to pull an 'additional' 600watts. 😁

EDIT: FFS I meant to quote Van_Zant.

Edited by mystafyi
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4 hours ago, Jah said:

Things to fight over are good for a PvP game.

I agree. However if "things" are few and far between and or aren't entertaining then finding people to do them along with fight over them is going to be challenging.

The systems not accounting for the each other where doing XYZ and have little to no value at all or after a given time period, isn't good for a PVP game.

Which seems to be the issue. There are things to do in this game outside of timed events, but it doesn't appear to be fun, challenging, or frequent enough to be the means to the PVP end that ACE intended.

I'd prefer PVP be rewarding for the sake of the activity itself and or systems that revolve around PVP that happen to be PVE. Instead of the other way around like this game loop.

It is setup that the whole "game you can win" aspect can be done with zero enemies. It's about capturing POI, doing quests, and accumulating points. Don't actually have to interact or defeat anyone.

Which other game models have as well, for example MOBAs. A lot of PVE is actually taking place but due to the map size, it is rather hard not to constantly be interacting with the enemy. 

Then there are games like Counterstrike, Chess, Overwatch, MTG, Starcraft, WoW Arenas, where it's a constant conflict in some form. A match can't start without at least two opposing sides, even if one side just stands at their spawn and does nothing.

Crowfall is much a PVE game as a PVP one. PVPVE. Lacking quantity/quality PVE content doesn't make something a PVP game. If doing quests, dev controlled events, and other such things makes this a PVP game then WoW is just as much a PVP game if not more.

 


 

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9 hours ago, mystafyi said:

To be fair, my rig is a bit dated with an i7-8700k and 1080ti. Sadly, if I upgraded to the top, an 11-900 and 3090 it still would only net me approx 30% gain for a paltry sum of 2,000$USD, not including the MB and PS upgrade costs that would entail. Now if that would equate to 30% in-game performance gains, I dont know since many times my utilization is not loaded. 

If that is needed to get adequate performance... Crap, I might have to upgrade power panel if that outlet is going to pull an 'additional' 600watts. 😁

EDIT: FFS I meant to quote Van_Zant.

Upgrading 1080ti to 3090 will easily net you over 2x performance, if not more. If you factor in other stuff such as ray tracing or DLSS, that goes all the way to between 2.5x with DLSS and 10x with ray tracing.

But then again, most logical upgrade path for that system would be waiting for 3080ti, which should be announced within 2 months. Keep the processor and mobo, you don't need PCIe 4.0, wait for PCIe 5.0 which will come next year with Ryzen 6000 series.

Edited by Eren
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On 4/7/2021 at 8:35 PM, mystafyi said:

To be fair, my rig is a bit dated with an i7-8700k and 1080ti. Sadly, if I upgraded to the top, an 11-900 and 3090 it still would only net me approx 30% gain for a paltry sum of 2,000$USD, not including the MB and PS upgrade costs that would entail. Now if that would equate to 30% in-game performance gains, I dont know since many times my utilization is not loaded. 

If that is needed to get adequate performance... Crap, I might have to upgrade power panel if that outlet is going to pull an 'additional' 600watts. 😁

EDIT: FFS I meant to quote Van_Zant.

That is not "dated" lol. My old 7700k / 1080ti held above 60fps in high traffic areas in this game and it nets me high fps on everything else i play @ 1440p. 1080ti still holds its own being 2 gens old. Moving up to a 5800x, netted me a few more fps and better frame times. This game graphically is more dated than your gpu.

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On 4/8/2021 at 3:25 AM, Eren said:

Upgrading 1080ti to 3090 will easily net you over 2x performance, if not more. If you factor in other stuff such as ray tracing or DLSS, that goes all the way to between 2.5x with DLSS and 10x with ray tracing.

So if I buy a 3090 I'll have 300 FPS?

Heading to ebay to drop $3k on one now!

 


 

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7 hours ago, Haggy said:

1080ti still holds its own being 2 gens old. Moving up to a 5800x, netted me a few more fps and better frame times. 

I have a spare 1660ti, technically it should be an upgrade from the 1080ti, but its not. The 2080 would barely be much of an upgrade with only 10-20% gains at best. With good GPU prices so high due to coin miners, it has to be worth the costs, and @1500$USD its real hard to justify for one game that does not use any of the bells and whistles, just the raw power to brute force the bad code of one game.

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10 hours ago, APE said:

So if I buy a 3090 I'll have 300 FPS?

Heading to ebay to drop $3k on one now!

Don't do it @APE! CF's poor FPS is more due to CPU overload than anything else. The poorly / Non optimized code can't send requests to the GPU fast enough to overload your GPU. Spend money on buffing your CPU first.

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