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Game Direction - Losing Crowfall as an MMORPG Throne War


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In all honesty, i've lost all interest at this point. I wish the remaining players a great time and hope its fun for them.  For me, this is NOT what I read thru on the original kickstarter plan.  

Have a great spring/summer best wishes.

Wrain

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Crowfall is quickly moving away from an RPG, from an MMO, and from a throne war simulator and morphing into a MOBA (yes, even the "MMO" side of it).  I'm going to start by highlighting how this occurr

Campaign worlds are going to be where you farm discs and materials to make vessels for an advantage in HungerDome.  There are only 2 things you can progress in Crowfall. Your Vessel/Discs an

I think in addition to what's been said, free city building will help a lot in campaign progression. It shouldnt take a few hours to build a keep because you import a seed and building mats. It should

5 hours ago, Omen said:

whoa... whoa... whoa... hold up. mandalore. Wasn't it you and Krakken (and others) that were such huge advocates of changing up the systems to literally lead us down this path. It absolutely was. It was all the screaming about "feeling locked into one race" etc... etc... that created this vanilla moba/mmo/battle royal mish*mash of a game. You all very much encouraged the devs to stray from the original vision of highly specialized and individual characters, so that you could play all races and do all things equally well as others. I remember all the forum posts  nearly 3 years ago. funny how isn't that about when things started to feel ackward for everyone. I'm certainly not blaming any of the loud voices back then because it all falls on the Devs, but don't act shocked and disappointed when you are getting exactly what you asked for.

Archetypes are literally what a moba char are.  A highly specialized and themed locked char with preset play style and determined abilities.  I've always tried to tilt CF towards more SB themed options.  I've advocated for longer campaigns, more class balance, easier crafting, lots of power complaints, I'm anti off time banes, I've tried to call them out on thelack of tactical decisions and a whole lot of mocking people for complaining about perceived and real zergs.  I don't know I've ever advocated for more q'd instanced PvP, less tactical decisions and prebuilt chars.  Do you have me confused with somebody or are you merely projecting all their bad decisions on a secret cabal you think they listen to?  Did Q send you?

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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32 minutes ago, veeshan said:

link doesnt work

Shows up for me. 

No buffs (except vengeful aura) purple vessel stats on HG Alpha:

unknown.png

I think there's plenty of gear progression. I do NOT think we've reached easy come, easy go yet. Once the game can support equipped item loot without it feeling punitive, THEN we will have reached easy come, easy go. 

Blazzen <Lords of Death>

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4 minutes ago, blazzen said:

Shows up for me. 

No buffs (except vengeful aura) purple vessel stats on HG Alpha:

unknown.png

I think there's plenty of gear progression. I do NOT think we've reached easy come, easy go yet. Once the game can support equipped item loot without it feeling punitive, THEN we will have reached easy come, easy go. 

Wish my bows could get 25% crit dmg -.- for what ever reason bows only give half the stats as melee weapons (im guessing they were originally gonna make quivers give the rest of the stats but doesnt. Only get 10% max crit dmg rolls on a purple bow with really high rolls. lego would probaly only push it to 13% or so, so dunno why bows arnt considered 2h weapons stats wise :( also only 1 hunger shard spot where i think melkee 2hder get 2

Edited by veeshan

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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I do think removing the second stat from blue quality and below crafted items was a big hit to crafted vs. wartribe weapons and was a step in the wrong direction. Rectifying would help a lot.

I also don't think purple tribe gear should drop in chests. I think ACE is changing that in 6.5? Maybe? Should be boss tribe mobs only for purple tribe items. Then they won't be so plentiful. It's pretty easy to make something better than blue tribe but the purple tribe stuff is pretty strong. That's fine if purple tribe items are both RARE and break quickly. The issue right now is they aren't rare enough. 

Blazzen <Lords of Death>

YouTube - Twitch - Website

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31 minutes ago, blazzen said:

I do think removing the second stat from blue quality and below crafted items was a big hit to crafted vs. wartribe weapons and was a step in the wrong direction. Rectifying would help a lot.

I also don't think purple tribe gear should drop in chests. I think ACE is changing that in 6.5? Maybe? Should be boss tribe mobs only for purple tribe items. Then they won't be so plentiful. It's pretty easy to make something better than blue tribe but the purple tribe stuff is pretty strong. That's fine if purple tribe items are both RARE and break quickly. The issue right now is they aren't rare enough. 

 

Agreed, of course as soon as they nerf wartribe gear, a month later people will be burned out on the crafting/harvesting loop.

Changes to looted gear, and this concept of easy come easy go, needs to incorporate changes to crafting most likely.

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23 hours ago, damebix said:

Rationale - Crafting should mean something,

 

I dont think it should.

Crafting was advertised as a path you could take as your main focus for your character, but how many people have you seen that are main crafters? Does a "main" crafter have a place in a 5 man hunger dome team? What I see is people buying multiple accounts to craft on and logging them out to play their main "combat" characters.

Why try to balance the entire game (unsuccessfully imo) around trying to make crafting a viable main profession when 99% of people just log in alt accounts to cover that and promptly log them back out?

Stop trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, minimize crafting and give it to combat mains like other games that learned this decades ago.

Edited by Toadwart
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How many man hours did that mace take  from start to finish. All the people working on it. Not just for the button press. The different toons to get the mats. The different toons to get the mats to get the gear so that they could get the mats to equip the other toons to get the gear for the other toons needed to make the vessels.

 

When you look at the last page of a book you are seeing the whole picture.

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1 hour ago, Toadwart said:

 

I dont think it should.

Crafting was advertised as a path you could take as your main focus for your character, but how many people have you seen that are main crafters? Does a "main" crafter have a place in a 5 man hunger dome team? What I see is people buying multiple accounts to craft on and logging them out to play their main "combat" characters.

Why try to balance the entire game (unsuccessfully imo) around trying to make crafting a viable main profession when 99% of people just log in alt accounts to cover that and promptly log them back out?

Stop trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, minimize crafting and give it to combat mains like other games that learned this decades ago.

 

Albion Online is very successful, and IMHO ACE should continue to try and model CF after it. In Albion Online, crafting has specific paths for unlocks that aren't just given automatically to people who focus on combat.

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3 hours ago, blazzen said:

Lack of gear progression - meet my alpha warrior mace. Was kind of an unlucky roll TBH. 

image0.jpg

Nice and mace you got there, be a shame if something happened to it. Like decay.

Ok everybody Smackblith is the one holding the mats. If he is at the crafting table, focus fire and go. 

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11 hours ago, damebix said:

The original vision has gone completely off the rails this past year, because loud voices want to turn this game into a MOBA that they can pop into any time and be just as competitive as the people that spent the last year working towards something.

I just can't get behind this. The most likely outcome I see of pushing the game further in this direction is even less competition in campaigns, an even harder on-ramp for players and guilds, and a continued whittling of the playerbase.

First and foremost Crowfall needs to remain focused on fun, and to be respectful of player's time. If the game becomes more grindy, more demanding on player's time commitment, more like a second job, then it will only cater to an ever shrinking population. One of the things WoW learned back in BC days was the longer, more time consuming, and frustrating you make progression, the fewer the number of your community that will stick it out. I can't remember the number, but they stated something like 10% of their population actually saw Illidan. In WoW that means people find other activities to do. In Crowfall that means people quit.


It cannot be expected that players of significantly different power levels 'compete' against each other. PvE games don't have this problem because progression is more a journey. In Crowfall, progression is just a means to increased power and superiority, or a hurdle to engaging in the 'fun' parts of the game. In real life we have anti-trust laws because it is recognized that imbalance is anti-competition. Players generally view this as unfair competition and many will choose to quit. It also cannot be expected that there will be a stable population of players at all levels of advancement, so players can't just 'compete at their level.' It is also not OK to tell players to suck it up, take their knocks and grind away for weeks, months, years? Again, they will quit.


Crowfall needs an additional progression system to replace the hole left by the passive system. It needs to be separate from the vessel, discipline, gear advancement. It should be more than simply stat increases, e.g. passives and other things that provide greater distinction in playstyle. It should involve more choice and specialization in characters. I also think it needs to be designed with the second point in mind. ESO's champion point revamp is a decent example: a broad web of nodes that the character advances through, but choices must be made as to what nodes are active at any time, so to cap the raw power increase provided and force some distinction. Alternatives are systems that are broad and shallow, allowing players to gain competitiveness in an area rapidly and add breadth over time.


Crowfall needs to decide how it will handle stagnation, both in economy and character progression. WoW type games can rely on regularly releasing new content with a soft-reset of player progression. EvE relies on depth of world, gamplay options, and a robust economy while also regularly refreshing every area of the game. ARPGs take a slightly different tack and effectively reset progression (gear, levels, everything) at some cadence while modifying elements of the world. While Crowfall's temporary worlds are somewhat unique to MMOs, it's not clear that persistent character progression mixes well with temporary worlds.


Crowfall's world architecture is one of its unique features that holds a lot of promise to address some of these issues. It's not unrealistic to think that there could be a mix of fully persistent worlds and finite length campaigns to create spaces that offer unique experiences. This is somewhat like the difference between faction warfare and nullsec in EvE, different spaces providing different experiences that emphasize different elements of the game.

  • Persistent worlds: this trends toward the EvE approach. To make this work, the world maps have to be much bigger with multiple free-city trading hubs and many more zones. This needs a robust territory control system, much more robust economic systems, expanded modes of play, and more 'content' throughout the world. It likely will need free building, and a caravan system for transporting goods to be successful. Unfortunately, we're probably 2-3 years of development away from this actually functioning.
  • Finite Campaign Worlds: this trends toward the ARPG approach. No import, No export. Character import as lvl 30, white disc. Much enhanced rates for gathering, farming, progression. No, or significantly devalued wartribe gear. Resources/Mobs rank up with season. Likely still needs more activities or 'content' in the world. The goal is to condense post-30 progression to the length of one campaign in order to increase activity within the campaign world. May also be worth experimenting with guild roster caps, and removing alliances to drive more competition. This should be achievable now, with the current state of the game, and the addition of a persistent character progression system that is mindful of imbalance would only improve the experience.
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2 hours ago, srathor said:

How many man hours did that mace take  from start to finish. All the people working on it. Not just for the button press. The different toons to get the mats. The different toons to get the mats to get the gear so that they could get the mats to equip the other toons to get the gear for the other toons needed to make the vessels.

 

When you look at the last page of a book you are seeing the whole picture.

hundreds easily, maybe 1000+

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5 hours ago, blazzen said:

Lack of gear progression - meet my alpha warrior mace. Was kind of an unlucky roll TBH. 

image0.jpg

Wartribes don't drop heavy weapons. You know this is a poor example because you only use heavy weapons in certain situations. And the main issue is that the 'gear progression' doesn't start until you get to the end of the crafting grind. Even then, look how much the crafting curve is flattened. look at the difference in damage between green and legendary. The stat difference is really nice though but its a 2h vs 1H. Also, taking secondary stats off of all but purple+ gear is just mind boggling. Maybe the changes to harvesting on test will help with this.

unknown.png

Edited by Yoink

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2 hours ago, DocToral said:

 

Albion Online is very successful, and IMHO ACE should continue to try and model CF after it. In Albion Online, crafting has specific paths for unlocks that aren't just given automatically to people who focus on combat.

SWG is often hailed as being among the best crafting & economy models ever, and many of the CF devs were part of the team that created it. Most of the elements necessary to recapture that magic are still, or at one time were, part of CF. I have always hoped that's the mark they're aiming for, but over the last year they've been moving farther and farther away from that target.

SWG's unique resource properties and near infinite storage is obviously not in the cards. The database creep that created was a serious challenge that I'm sure they don't want to repeat. That said, the array of additives can be greatly expanded over time to allow broad customization. Give the tribes officers additives as loot with race specific properties. Let us salvage tribes gear to extract properties from their gear.

The crafting interface is already close to SWG. Give us more experimentation lines  (e.g. damage, durability, weight, and each stat as its own line) and let us allocate points in small blocks of experiments, and we'd be there. 

Blueprints and 'factories' is something they have already sunk hours into and shown us preliminaraies for, and would go a long way towards the "easy come" that they want. Blazzen's mace above might be a one off, but being able to toss a dozen blue maces into the factory, and having those identical items stack until equipped, would make having stores of mid-grade replacement gear a reality.

Vendors are something we already have, and gold is finally starting to have value. What's missing is the ability to easily pump out enough good gear to stock them, and buy orders for basic harvested goods. Embrace an economy in the infected and the EKs, then lone wolf players will be able gear up, small guilds will be able to lick their wounds and restock before venturing back into the dregs, and a broad array of players will have a role to play in the game.

Craftsman want to craft, not fight. Harvesters want to harvest and have a chance to escape a fight. Merchants want to sell their goods and roll around in their gold. When players have multiple characters, they don't have multiple combat/craftsman/harvesters, they have these combat vessels, these craftsman and those harvesters. Trying to put everyone on the same playing field is a fool's errand. It's just not going to happen.

Edited by VaMei
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Only thing that is missing is the harvesting : Easy Come in that respect and thus also factories to feed the warmachine.

Yeah Watribe gear is good but stop making crafted gear sound bad.  It's not and it's a complete troll stating it is.  Crafted gear is hands down better.

Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

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5 hours ago, blazzen said:

Lack of gear progression - meet my alpha warrior mace. Was kind of an unlucky roll TBH. 

image0.jpg

I've been avoiding this topic, but for the few folks reading that may not understand how Blazzen is misleading folks by posting a legendary heavy weapon.  Heavy weapons increase the cost of all your abilities and reduce your left click basic attack dmg in exchange for having a higher weapon dmg that makes powers, like neckbreaker hit harder. Heavy weapons are useful only if most of your dmg comes from a power--like champion neckbreaker spam.

 

Wartribes do not drop heavy weapons.  For reference here is a one of the better wartribe one hand dmg drops:

Screenshot_25.png

Note the weapon weight of 5 vs 80.

Here is a two hander wartribe:

unknown.png

Weight 10 v 80.

And here is the apples to apples comparison:  

2hander 

 unknown.png

 

Edited by Angelmar
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1 hour ago, corvax said:

Nice and mace you got there, be a shame if something happened to it. Like decay.

Ok everybody Smackblith is the one holding the mats. If he is at the crafting table, focus fire and go. 

Why craft in a campaign when you can craft with all the end game buffs and crafting table thralls in the safety of an EK?

ACE removed any incentive to risk getting ganked by BAP in a keep when they added thrall buffs to EKs.

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40 minutes ago, Yoink said:

Wartribes don't drop heavy weapons. You know this is a poor example because you only use heavy weapons in certain situations. And the main issue is that the 'gear progression' doesn't start until you get to the end of the crafting grind. Even then, look how much the crafting curve is flattened. look at the difference in damage between green and legendary. The stat difference is really nice though but its a 2h vs 1H. Also, taking secondary stats off of all but purple+ gear is just mind boggling. Maybe the changes to harvesting on test will help with this.

unknown.png

unknown.png?width=314&height=501unknown.png

I still love how bows still get stats equivalent to 1h weapons it seems, 1st pic was all in crit dmg which came out as 12.8% compared to maces 24.5% or what not, 2nd one was all AP roll gets 38 AP compared to maces 70AP
These were 16 pip crafts it stupidly hard to get more than 16 pips on woodworker (Purple belt atm so missing 1 pip there) 

im guessing they inteded quiver to provide the rest of the stats but then decided against it.
 

Edited by veeshan

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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