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Game Direction - Losing Crowfall as an MMORPG Throne War


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4 hours ago, MacDeath said:

While it's true that the game can't survive if it only appeals to the hardcore, kicking the early backers in the teeth / balls to build a game that will ONLY appeal to casuals is NOT NICE.

This Casual vs. Hardcore crap is getting ridiculous. It's bad enough normally when people throw it around. But come on now.

If I wanted to support my guild for every siege window in a week that would be 21 hours of just siege windows. Say we don't want to contest something during some of those windows, so call it 14 hours. Now I probably need to log on for some amount of hours outside those windows to do things to be competitive. So let's call it 20-30 hours a week. That's a part time job... On top of this, a LOT of this time is waiting for something to happen. Sitting in fort circles, sitting at keeps waiting, running around the map between POIs trying to find people. I feel lucky if I get 10 minutes of action for every hour of time invested.

That doesn't even begin to address the state of the advancement grind. I'm not going to try to estimate the hours needed to grind a profession to 'max', it would probably be wrong anyway because of RNG stuff. The more frustrating part is the shear boredom and pointlessness of it. It's doing incredibly tedious, and monotonous activities over and over again with practically no worthwhile rewards until the end of it. Hitting rocks for hours with crap rewards, crafting useless stuff for hours, Farming braindead mobs for hours upon hours. This is madness. The great part of it is you do all of this tedious crap, in the end you max everything, and your reward is you get to do the SAME tedious crap for every campaign. Hooray! Progress!

It's ridiculous when someone says: 'maybe 20-30 hours of investment per week is a bit much of a requirement', and instantly it's: 'You're just a casual that's not committed to the game'. Or someone says: 'hey maybe this grind is boring and detracts from PvP', and then it's 'You just want instant gratification, go play a BR/MOBA.' Or: 'hey maybe we need more fun PvE stuff that people can fight over', and immediately it's:  'You're just a carebear.'

The number of times a new player has come on the forums to give their feedback and been shouted down with this crap is embarrassing. At this point I'm fairly convinced what's going to kill this game is the community...

 

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29 minutes ago, Pystkeebler said:

This Casual vs. Hardcore crap is getting ridiculous. It's bad enough normally when people throw it around. But come on now.

If I wanted to support my guild for every siege window in a week that would be 21 hours of just siege windows. Say we don't want to contest something during some of those windows, so call it 14 hours. Now I probably need to log on for some amount of hours outside those windows to do things to be competitive. So let's call it 20-30 hours a week. That's a part time job... On top of this, a LOT of this time is waiting for something to happen. Sitting in fort circles, sitting at keeps waiting, running around the map between POIs trying to find people. I feel lucky if I get 10 minutes of action for every hour of time invested.

That doesn't even begin to address the state of the advancement grind. I'm not going to try to estimate the hours needed to grind a profession to 'max', it would probably be wrong anyway because of RNG stuff. The more frustrating part is the shear boredom and pointlessness of it. It's doing incredibly tedious, and monotonous activities over and over again with practically no worthwhile rewards until the end of it. Hitting rocks for hours with crap rewards, crafting useless stuff for hours, Farming braindead mobs for hours upon hours. This is madness. The great part of it is you do all of this tedious crap, in the end you max everything, and your reward is you get to do the SAME tedious crap for every campaign. Hooray! Progress!

It's ridiculous when someone says: 'maybe 20-30 hours of investment per week is a bit much of a requirement', and instantly it's: 'You're just a casual that's not committed to the game'. Or someone says: 'hey maybe this grind is boring and detracts from PvP', and then it's 'You just want instant gratification, go play a BR/MOBA.' Or: 'hey maybe we need more fun PvE stuff that people can fight over', and immediately it's:  'You're just a carebear.'

The number of times a new player has come on the forums to give their feedback and been shouted down with this crap is embarrassing. At this point I'm fairly convinced what's going to kill this game is the community...

 

In a PvP game, the players ARE the content. Many of us are here because we were drawn to Crowfall by the promise that we could play to win. Now, many of us don't turn off that play-to-win approach just because were on the forums or in discord... Should we respect all points of view? Sure, BUT... opinions are like arseholes... everybody has one and most of them stink.

Edited by MacDeath

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7 minutes ago, Pystkeebler said:

This Casual vs. Hardcore crap is getting ridiculous. It's bad enough normally when people throw it around. But come on now.

If I wanted to support my guild for every siege window in a week that would be 21 hours of just siege windows. Say we don't want to contest something during some of those windows, so call it 14 hours. Now I probably need to log on for some amount of hours outside those windows to do things to be competitive. So let's call it 20-30 hours a week. That's a part time job... On top of this, a LOT of this time is waiting for something to happen. Sitting in fort circles, sitting at keeps waiting, running around the map between POIs trying to find people. I feel lucky if I get 10 minutes of action for every hour of time invested.

That doesn't even begin to address the state of the advancement grind. I'm not going to try to estimate the hours needed to grind a profession to 'max', it would probably be wrong anyway because of RNG stuff. The more frustrating part is the shear boredom and pointlessness of it. It's doing incredibly tedious, and monotonous activities over and over again with practically no worthwhile rewards until the end of it. Hitting rocks for hours with crap rewards, crafting useless stuff for hours, Farming braindead mobs for hours upon hours. This is madness. The great part of it is you do all of this tedious crap, in the end you max everything, and your reward is you get to do the SAME tedious crap for every campaign. Hooray! Progress!

It's ridiculous when someone says: 'maybe 20-30 hours of investment per week is a bit much of a requirement', and instantly it's: 'You're just a casual that's not committed to the game'. Or someone says: 'hey maybe this grind is boring and detracts from PvP', and then it's 'You just want instant gratification, go play a BR/MOBA.' Or: 'hey maybe we need more fun PvE stuff that people can fight over', and immediately it's:  'You're just a carebear.'

The number of times a new player has come on the forums to give their feedback and been shouted down with this crap is embarrassing. At this point I'm fairly convinced what's going to kill this game is the community...

 

Eh, depends.

20 hours per week is less than 3 hrs/day. That is barely any gaming time at all. I mean, if Im gonna log for less than an hour in any game i probably wont even bother.

There is quite a lot to do if you wanna be competitive. Just today i did like 8 caravans runs, emptied 2 of our forts (that took a few trips), upgraded a building from zero to rank 1, killed 2 chiefs, almost died to a herald. Now Im farming gold so i can upgrade my discs when the cw ends. All this in less than 4 hours.

Hell, some days ago I was farming rats and then elementals so our guild could compete for cards.

All that is progress for my guild and alliance or for me.

Hell at times i felt so busy i could feel myself burning out. Can say i will appreciate the break we will get to go to Test.

This coming from a guy that because of the siege times and work cant participate in the fights. Despite that i doubt anyone on my guild would complain i dont help.

And i would love if someone like you logged 1 hour everyday to help me carry the burden. Id say your guild would appreciate it too.

Or on the other hand i would love if i could kill you while you do caravans and steal your pigs. Or kill you while you farm elementals. Or while you farm gold.

There is plenty to do. And doing them would be more fun if there was a challenge to it instead of me being able to do it afk.

The things might no be the guaranteed fights yall want, but they are there. The fact nobody logs to do them just makes them even more boring.

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12 minutes ago, BarriaKarl said:

And i would love if someone like you logged 1 hour everyday to help me carry the burden. Id say your guild would appreciate it too.

Or on the other hand i would love if i could kill you while you do caravans and steal your pigs. Or kill you while you farm elementals. Or while you farm gold.

There is plenty to do. And doing them would be more fun if there was a challenge to it instead of me being able to do it afk.

The things might no be the guaranteed fights yall want, but they are there. The fact nobody logs to do them just makes them even more boring.

Surely you can see the circularity of this. At this point I couldn't pay friends to log in to do this stuff.

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19 minutes ago, BarriaKarl said:

Eh, depends.

20 hours per week is less than 3 hrs/day. That is barely any gaming time at all. I mean, if Im gonna log for less than an hour in any game i probably wont even bother.

There is quite a lot to do if you wanna be competitive. Just today i did like 8 caravans runs, emptied 2 of our forts (that took a few trips), upgraded a building from zero to rank 1, killed 2 chiefs, almost died to a herald. Now Im farming gold so i can upgrade my discs when the cw ends. All this in less than 4 hours.

Hell, some days ago I was farming rats and then elementals so our guild could compete for cards.

All that is progress for my guild and alliance or for me.

Hell at times i felt so busy i could feel myself burning out. Can say i will appreciate the break we will get to go to Test.

This coming from a guy that because of the siege times and work cant participate in the fights. Despite that i doubt anyone on my guild would complain i dont help.

And i would love if someone like you logged 1 hour everyday to help me carry the burden. Id say your guild would appreciate it too.

Or on the other hand i would love if i could kill you while you do caravans and steal your pigs. Or kill you while you farm elementals. Or while you farm gold.

There is plenty to do. And doing them would be more fun if there was a challenge to it instead of me being able to do it afk.

The things might no be the guaranteed fights yall want, but they are there. The fact nobody logs to do them just makes them even more bo

What Barria said is completely true. Although there is a lot to be improved, the game has a lot of content already. What is lacking is guilds doing that content. As a guild leader i am always setting objectives and things to do for our players, in order for them always have what to do and don't get bored.

 

But seems like just ybr and few others guilds are doing so. If we had real competitiveness one this dregs it would be much funnier. But that lack of interest from the guilds are a consequence of bad features

Edited by Coiote
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This will be not a popular opinion but I like the idea of having progression inside a campaign and not in the game itself (like MOBA). Then progression resets once campaign world dies. The only thing that should travel between campaign is players achievements in terms of names, ranks and cosmetics. So you can say "I am the best because I won campaigns" and people can visually see it when they look at you. So I am a fan of long no-import campaigns, where you can only bring your badges with you.

However, we all need to understand that we all want different things. Something that I like the most is opposite to something another person loves. And here comes the unique feature of Crowfall - campaigns with different rulesets. There should not be one solution (it is not gonna work, it never worked in other games), the should be several ones for different types of players. You want to bring you legendary sword, that you crafted in the previous campaign after farming for a week? OK, go to campaign that allows that. You want everyone to start from almost the same ground like MOBA? OK, go to campaign that allows that. You want a zerg fest and spam buttons with your friends? Go to the campaign that benefits zergs play. Hate zergs? Go to the campaign that benefits small scale. Etc.

We can't test such splits now because of population issues, but that's how Crowfall will conquer the unsolvable problem of trying to make everyone happy.

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1 minute ago, ComradeAma said:

This will be not a popular opinion but I like the idea of having progression inside a campaign and not in the game itself (like MOBA). Then progression resets once campaign world dies.

Early on I hoped they would adapt something like that with combat/racial passive tree being tied to campaign so I could play different builds each and every campaign. With crafting/harvesting tree's tied to the crow.

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6 hours ago, ComradeAma said:

This will be not a popular opinion but I like the idea of having progression inside a campaign and not in the game itself (like MOBA). Then progression resets once campaign world dies. The only thing that should travel between campaign is players achievements in terms of names, ranks and cosmetics. So you can say "I am the best because I won campaigns" and people can visually see it when they look at you. So I am a fan of long no-import campaigns, where you can only bring your badges with you.

However, we all need to understand that we all want different things. Something that I like the most is opposite to something another person loves. And here comes the unique feature of Crowfall - campaigns with different rulesets. There should not be one solution (it is not gonna work, it never worked in other games), the should be several ones for different types of players.

This seems like the right answer to me, and it is the real promise of the world bands that Crowfall has designed. It doesn't have to be a one size fits all world. Crowfall can offer a HungerDome that offers a place for low time commitment required, fast paced, combat focused gameplay. Crowfall can offer campaigns with more persistence like what we have now, or even fully persistent Dregs worlds, for the population that wants that higher barrier to entry, higher time investment experience.

I think you're 100% correct that what is needed to bridge the gap between the two is a campaign setting without persistence, and a more level playing field at the start. Something that provides the full campaign experience, with progression, in a more focused, faster pace setting. Something that splits the difference in time investment between HungerDome and the current Dregs. I think there's a potentially large population of players that want the experience of a DAOC, or a WAR, or a GW2 but without all the extra baggage of Dregs.

Unfortunately, I don't think the Shadow ruleset alone, if it's just Faction vs. Faction with no other changes, will deliver that. It may make sense to offer No import, No export, Shadow campaigns with import of lvl 30 character copies, and faster harvesting and progression. I hope something like this finds its way in.

.

Edited by Pystkeebler
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10 hours ago, MacDeath said:

While it's true that the game can't survive if it only appeals to the hardcore, kicking the early backers in the teeth / balls to build a game that will ONLY appeal to casuals is NOT NICE.

They aren't doing either.

The original concept wasn't a "hardcore" only game. I'd say it was actually the opposite if anything. It was supposed to be accessible, allow new players to get in and going relatively quickly and then have progress markers to reward those that went the extra mile.

The current version and direction it has been going in for years (people seem to have missed this?) is not casual friendly. Offering a throw away battle royale and war tribe gear doesn't make this game casual friendly at all. Casual friendly to me is having engaging content be it short or long play sessions that may or may not require X number of friendlies to complete. 

Crowfall doesn't reward nor offer much content for either type of play style

10 hours ago, MacDeath said:

IMO, ACE needs to find a way to make the game fun for many different types of playstyles and markets.

Campaign rulesets and various features that haven't come to be were supposed to facilitate this. Obviously Crowfall isn't going to match a major AAA MMO when it comes to variety of content for every player out there, but it seems to be a niche within a niche within a niche where even only a few active players actually find it entertaining at this point.

5 hours ago, MacDeath said:

In a PvP game, the players ARE the content. Many of us are here because we were drawn to Crowfall by the promise that we could play to win. Now, many of us don't turn off that play-to-win approach just because were on the forums or in discord... Should we respect all points of view? Sure, BUT... opinions are like arseholes... everybody has one and most of them stink.

Most MMOs offer the "play to win" and "players are the content." Be it winning a dungeon, arena, quest, or whatever. I felt like I "won" when my guild/faction would accomplish something in games like DAoC and WAR, despite the next day all that work potentially being erased by the other sides. I didn't need a splash screen to make me feel fuzzy inside. Open World PVP MMOs grow stale because of lack of support and development long term. I liked the idea of blending MMOs and instanced formats with clear outcomes, but not at the sake of so much else. Players will only play games if there is something worth while to do, other players existing in a game world is not enough content. Could dump 5k players into this game and it would be more entertaining for sure but most likely they would drop quickly as the experience itself is not worth the time.

 


 

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7 hours ago, Coiote said:

CF really shines at PVP.  The rest is boring. Thats the main fact about it.

Not sure saying something makes it a fact.

CF's PVP pales in comparison to some much older MMOs in my opinion.

Combat is low skill, combat mechanics are not tuned well, performance is what it is, and character building leaves a lot to desire (for me).

If all I wanted was to PVP be it a MMO, MOBA, FPS, RTS, etc there are tons of higher quality games out there that also offer full game experiences as well.

7 hours ago, Galahorn said:

Right now, crowfall needs to focus on its strengths to rebuild a stronger player base. The PvP is fun, the rest is lacking.

For me PVP is the most important part of the game and it isn't fun. The rest of the game lacking just compounds on this. Even when I've tired of running dungeons or doing whatever content in other MMOs, most still kept me engaged with better PVP.

Obviously we all have different experiences and opinions, but I'm curious how people believe Crowfall's combat is "good" in comparison to other games.

 


 

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11 hours ago, MacDeath said:

While it's true that the game can't survive if it only appeals to the hardcore, kicking the early backers in the teeth / balls to build a game that will ONLY appeal to casuals is NOT NICE.

The Kickstarter was based around passive training. Many of us backed early because we were hopeful for an MMO that didn't heavily penalize casual players.

You have to remember that most of the early backers of Crowfall were old Shadowbane players who are now in their 30s and 40s. Most people have lives, jobs, and families. Being required to invest 30hrs+ per week to remain competitive is not the game most of us thought we were backing. 

Reducing the power gap between the no lifers and the casuals is not a kick in the teeth unless you absolutely need that power gap to win or have fun. But then, what does it say about your skills if this is the case? 

At the end of the day, pvp effectiveness can come from skills or stats. No lifers are advocating for a game that weights heavily toward stats because they have an immense amount of time to acquire said stats. People without as much time would prefer a more skill-based game where they can compete, albeit at a small disadvantage. There are far, far more casual players than there are no-lifers. Which path do you think is going to lead to higher population, more fun, and a more developed game? All of those things benefit you as well.

11 hours ago, MacDeath said:

IMO, ACE needs to find a way to make the game fun for many different types of playstyles and markets.

That's what they're trying to do. Wartribe gear is a major part of this. The weird thing is that the people calling for Wartribe gear to be nerfed or removed are not impacted by it in any way, they don't have to use it themselves and have far better gear to use within weeks of wipe. It's purely crab mentality and incredibly short-sighted.

Edited by Alot
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10 hours ago, Yumx said:

But one thing people has to remember, you can't say now that the game will flop, just because you dont enjoy the current state - thats a hypothesis and can only be proven after launch.

Regarding the easy come easy go, sadly it's just how gaming has become here in modern times.

Etc. every popular game has a way to get instant action, Crowfall did not, until Hungerdome came back.

They took a huge risk trying to make this game, and fit it into the market.

We've had a huge amount of players come through the game during the years, and it's easy to say 'testing is not for everyone', but those people were also not caught by the game loop.

No one can predict the future, but I would be shocked if this game lasted very long. There is over 20 years of MMO history to look to for guesstimating how it will turn out.

Never seen a game nearing launch with 10s of thousands having access only see a handful active be it in-game or forums. Over the years I've read countless "XYZ will bring the players" and that seems to have stopped completely. Now it's "launch will bring them." If a game is fun, regardless of calling it alpha, beta, or turtle soup, people will play it. Wipes be damned, people will play if it is fun. Fearing burn out shouldn't be a thing because why would people burn out on a fun experience?

Hungerdome is an attempt to grasp the instant gratification mindset, but does nothing for the MMO and really is lacking compared to many other games/modes that already exist.

People haven't been caught by the game loop and doesn't seem like ACE has it figured out yet. Even the post launch plans are just tacking on bare minimum expected features from most games. Not taking the game in a different direction (original or not) or retooling systems and the overall game experience.

 


 

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3 hours ago, ComradeAma said:

Then progression resets once campaign world dies.

And here comes the unique feature of Crowfall - campaigns with different rulesets. There should not be one solution (it is not gonna work, it never worked in other games), the should be several ones for different types of players. You want to bring you legendary sword, that you crafted in the previous campaign after farming for a week? OK, go to campaign that allows that. You want everyone to start from almost the same ground like MOBA? OK, go to campaign that allows that. You want a zerg fest and spam buttons with your friends? Go to the campaign that benefits zergs play. Hate zergs? Go to the campaign that benefits small scale. Etc.

We can't test such splits now because of population issues, but that's how Crowfall will conquer the unsolvable problem of trying to make everyone happy.

I and others made similar suggestions years ago and the community feedback was basically "go play a MOBA this game isn't for you." Despite the fact that Crowfall could offer a wide variety of options, people are so focused on what they want that others potentially have a different experience is unacceptable. Sadly players are selfish creatures that have a hard time looking outside their little box.

I've suggested campaigns that had individual passive skill trees (when they existed) allowing sped up training, or giving players X number of points to spend at the start. This would of made choices and specialization matter.

Self contained campaigns would of removed a lot of the "uncle bob" issues as well.

Since ACE has yet to deliver diverse rulesets beyond 50 or 10 imports and such very very simplistic options, I have no clue if they are capable or planning to get more creative. Seen nothing like what they alluded to early on.

Campaigns and a variety of options is probably Crowfall's largest strength and ACE has done almost nothing with it which makes no sense to me. Instead they seem to be spinning their development roadmap in circles trying to figure out which way to go.

1 hour ago, Pystkeebler said:

It doesn't have to be a one size fits all world. 

I think there's a potentially large population of players that want the experience of a DAOC, or a WAR, or a GW2 but without all the extra baggage of Dregs.

Campaign rulesets catering to different types of players is a large part why I backed during KS. They haven't delivered what they said and certainly not what I envisioned even though that might of just been wishful thinking.

DAoC was a very simple game overall, but nailed RvR (faction) well enough for the time. I can't believe that Crowfall can't even match what it delivered so many years ago. From combat, character design, world layout, strategy, player control, etc there is no reason a modern game trying to ride the nostalgia of such games can't come close with all that advancements and experience that is available today vs back then.

 


 

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24 minutes ago, Alot said:

At the end of the day, pvp effectiveness can come from skills or stats.

The weird thing is that the people calling for Wartribe gear to be nerfed or removed are not impacted by it in any way, they don't have to use it themselves and have far better gear to use within weeks of wipe. It's purely crab mentality and incredibly short-sighted.

As ACE has built something that leans heavily towards stats and numbers which are easier to work with, I doubt skill/strategy will ever matter as much.

Those trying to make the game less accessible so they have more fun seem to be oblivious to how gaming works. Changing War Tribe gear and Crafting isn't going to get 100k to show up on day 1 and especially not stick around. Unfortunately the perceived issues that people believe are catering to MOBA causal players don't actually do that either so it's a lose lose all around.

 


 

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1 hour ago, APE said:

Those trying to make the game less accessible so they have more fun seem to be oblivious to how gaming works. Changing War Tribe gear and Crafting isn't going to get 100k to show up on day 1 and especially not stick around. Unfortunately the perceived issues that people believe are catering to MOBA causal players don't actually do that either so it's a lose lose all around.

I don't think they're trying to make the game less accessible to have more fun because low population is generally the anti-thesis of fun. I think it's because they want to "win" and they're very aware that the major competitive advantages they have outside of game knowledge are the number of players and the sheer number of hours they're willing to commit. 

I haven't seen a single legitimate argument for why Wartribe gear should be nerfed or dropped. People haven't even been trying to defend the position, just keep tossing it out there in hopes that the chorus will convince ArtCraft, I guess. I have seen some good justification for why early-game crafting should receive a slight buff to be more in-line with Wartribe gear, however.

Nerfing or removing Wartribe gear will have a disastrous impact on population. It will make the game inaccessible unless you no-life or join for a large guild. It's that latter condition that the large guilds are trying to maintain, as it funnels most players to them and makes starting up a new guild very challenging. 

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5 minutes ago, Alot said:

I don't think they're trying to make the game less accessible to have more fun because low population is generally the anti-thesis of fun. I think it's because they want to "win" and they're very aware that the major competitive advantages they have outside of game knowledge are the number of players and the sheer number of hours they're willing to commit. 

I haven't seen a single legitimate argument for why Wartribe gear should be nerfed or dropped. People haven't even been trying to defend the position, just keep tossing it out there in hopes that the chorus will convince ArtCraft, I guess. I have seen some good justification for why early-game crafting should receive a slight buff to be more in-line with Wartribe gear, however.

Nerfing or removing Wartribe gear will have a disastrous impact on population. It will make the game inaccessible unless you no-life or join for a large guild. It's that latter condition that the large guilds are trying to maintain, as it funnels most players to them and makes starting up a new guild very challenging. 

How will removing or nerfing WT gear has a "disastrous" affect on population? I started playing when there was no WT gear and I would say we had more numbers back then than we do now. I cannot prove that, but WT gear certainly was not the catalyst for a population explosion. Not by a long shot. As to not defending the position, it has been, a lot, you just choose to not accept or read the responses evidently. The biggest reason would be a player driven economy. 

As to the "large guilds etc. that is absolute crap. It has nothing to do with "wanting to win" let me let you in on a secret, if the big guilds want to win, they are going to, no matter how much you squirm. What they want is competition as PvP sucks when you can just steamroll the entire rest of the game.

There should be rewards for being in a big guild and being able to commit large amounts of time, if there isn't then you lose the part of the population that enjoys spending a lot of time in a game. You seem to only care about the casual (which they are very important and I am certainly NOT anti-casual) and that is not a great idea. There needs to be a level of satisfaction that can be achieved by just logging in for any amount of time, and balancing that is what we should ALL be about, not trying to make it so everyone gets the same trophy. We all get trophies, but if I spend 8 hours/day polishing my trophy, it is going to be shinier than yours, but you still get a trophy.

I have not read anywhere in here where anyone stated they wanted to drive people away, or make this a game for no-lifers (ore retirees). No sane person would want that, and judging by passionate, well written and sometimes well thought out posts I am seeing here, everyone (except BZRA) is pretty sane and at least wants to see the game succeed. We may all have differing visions, but I don't see anyone that wants the game scrapped. For you to suggest as much is...lets just say counter productive.

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42 minutes ago, Alot said:

 

I haven't seen a single legitimate argument for why Wartribe gear should be nerfed or dropped. People haven't even been trying to defend the position, just keep tossing it out there in hopes that the chorus will convince ArtCraft, I guess. I have seen some good justification for why early-game crafting should receive a slight buff to be more in-line with Wartribe gear, however.

 

Wartribes intended purpose was a stop gap as they fixed easier access to crafted gear.  The intended vision was to have full time crafters (a horrible idea) creating gear for guilds.  If this has shifted they could do themselves a favor and explain the direction change.  If wartribe gear persists it's place needs to be clearly defined.

 

If wartribe gear is intended to be powerful and easily farmable by smaller guilds then why wouldn't larger guilds also do it.  Why would I have crafters and harvesters if the most efficient way to gear is to go farm wartribes.  Why wouldn't I just camp the good wartribe spots with groups?  If wartribe gear is so so but is intended to be used as a stop gap until you get crafted gear that's disadvantageous to smaller guilds who can't craft the same gear. 

This whole discussion is because while we know the original intent of wartribe gear we don't actually know what the devs goal for it is now and that's their bad.  They should tell us so we can offer feedback on the issue instead of this argument by mixed factions about devs thoughts and intended features.

Edited by mandalore
40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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2 minutes ago, Ajokoira said:

How will removing or nerfing WT gear has a "disastrous" affect on population? I started playing when there was no WT gear and I would say we had more numbers back then than we do now. I cannot prove that, but WT gear certainly was not the catalyst for a population explosion. Not by a long shot. As to not defending the position, it has been, a lot, you just choose to not accept or read the responses evidently. The biggest reason would be a player driven economy. 

I'm referring to the population post launch. Pre-launch population is irrelevant. If there is no way for a casual player to start playing the game short of joining a major guild, many will not play the game. Likewise, if small guilds can't join and feasibly participate, they also will not play the game. Not everyone wants to be shoe-horned into a large guild. 

Wartribe gear doesn't have to be removed for there to be a player-driven economy and there are many major issues that are more problematic for the economy regardless. I do agree that early-game crafting needs to be buffed slightly, which will help create a market for the endless junk people are currently vendoring.

2 minutes ago, Ajokoira said:

As to the "large guilds etc. that is absolute crap. It has nothing to do with "wanting to win" let me let you in on a secret, if the big guilds want to win, they are going to, no matter how much you squirm. What they want is competition as PvP sucks when you can just steamroll the entire rest of the game.

I think you have me mistaken for someone else as I am not trying to win in Crowfall, nor am I squirming. I'm simply trying to contribute to making Crowfall a solid game on launch. Given this position, you could say that I'm significantly less biased than most of the other people commenting here.

2 minutes ago, Ajokoira said:

There should be rewards for being in a big guild and being able to commit large amounts of time, if there isn't then you lose the part of the population that enjoys spending a lot of time in a game.

There absolutely should be rewards. They just shouldn't be so excessive that they stifle all competition. This is where the discussion about power gap came from, feel free to review those posts.

Skins, cosmetics, resources that are accessible to the rest of the game population, Eternal Kingdom stuff, these are all good rewards. Being able to craft significantly better gear because you're in a large guild is not a good reward. It's anti-competitive, and when the power gap between the haves and have nots is too large, the have nots will stop playing. 

2 minutes ago, Ajokoira said:

You seem to only care about the casual (which they are very important and I am certainly NOT anti-casual) and that is not a great idea.

I care about the casual because that is where population comes from. The game needs population to be fun and to be financially viable. Further, casuals have almost no voice on these forums. The vast majority of people have been here for years, are committed to a guild, and very much want their guild to "win".

I took it upon myself to play as a no-guild/small-guild casual this wipe to evaluate the experience, so perhaps I'm seeing this in a different light than many of you. Feel free to give it a shot as well, it has been really interesting and a lot of fun (but my tolerance for difficulty is pretty high). 

2 minutes ago, Ajokoira said:

There needs to be a level of satisfaction that can be achieved by just logging in for any amount of time, and balancing that is what we should ALL be about, not trying to make it so everyone gets the same trophy. We all get trophies, but if I spend 8 hours/day polishing my trophy, it is going to be shinier than yours, but you still get a trophy.

I really don't care what kind of trophies you get, as long as casual players can play the game. Removing Wartribe gear makes that much more difficult.

2 minutes ago, Ajokoira said:

I have not read anywhere in here where anyone stated they wanted to drive people away, or make this a game for no-lifers (ore retirees). No sane person would want that, and judging by passionate, well written and sometimes well thought out posts I am seeing here, everyone (except BZRA) is pretty sane and at least wants to see the game succeed. We may all have differing visions, but I don't see anyone that wants the game scrapped. For you to suggest as much is...lets just say counter productive.

I didn't say that they wanted to drive people away. I said they wanted to "win". The unfortunate effect of shaping the game to be the easiest for them to "win" is that it will drive population away by making the game inaccessible.

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22 hours ago, ZYBAK said:

2. Reduce the amount of resources on the map in general. Just less of everything. In previous Crowfall campaigns we had times where there were only a few select spots that had awesome rank 10 iron nodes or motherloads in general. Many people remember the Zombie Canyon wars we had a few years ago. Those happened because that's where the resources were! 

This is one of the better suggestions in this thread, IMO. Scarce with a larger payout might be a better balance than what we have now. Though it is a difficult balance to strike between making things more scarce and yet not solely controllable by one large group. I'd go a step further and suggest making clusters of r10 nodes and most motherlodes event spawns like pigs. Also, putting these events on the map with fuzzy location indicators would be a helpful way to focus conflict. You don't want to go too far down this path or you make it impossible to harvest without a group of 20 people, but having motherlodes and high end resources be flashpoints for conflict seems like an improvement, as long as the rewards are worth it.

Edited by Pystkeebler
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17 minutes ago, mandalore said:

If wartribe gear is intended to be powerful and easily farmable by smaller guilds then why wouldn't larger guilds also do it. 

Precisely. They absolutely can. But wartribe gear is not better than end-game crafted gear, rather it is a stop gap and quick fix for having no gear. Currently it is also best in slot until your crafters are end-game ready, and that is unfortunate, but could be resolved by slighting buffing early-game crafting to be more in line with wartribe gear, without buffing end-game crafting further and increasing the power gap. Large guilds will eventually migrate over to mostly crafted gear. 

Quote

Why would I have crafters and harvesters if the most efficient way to gear is to go farm wartribes.  Why wouldn't I just camp the good wartribe spots with groups?

Because end-game crafted gear is significantly better, the durability on wartribe gear is very low, and it takes a lot of time and bank space to accrue wartribe gear for a whole guild. You also need crafters for jewelry, rune weapons, vessels, potions, poisons, etc.

Quote

  If wartribe gear is so so but is intended to be used as a stop gap until you get crafted gear that's disadvantageous to smaller guilds who can't craft the same gear. 

It is disadvantageous for small guilds. But it will be even more disadvantageous if it's removed. The alternative is to invest thousands of hours of playtime before being even remotely competitive with large guilds.

Edited by Alot
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