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Game Direction - Losing Crowfall as an MMORPG Throne War


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18 minutes ago, Alot said:

If there is no way for a casual player to start playing the game short of joining a major guild, many will not play the game. Likewise, if small guilds can't join and feasibly participate, they also will not play the game. Not everyone wants to be shoe-horned into a large guild. 

 

Clearly the devs are pushing everybody into guilds.  If a small guild can't protect its sovereignty what was the value in it standing on its own.  This idea that I should be able to play any game however I want is a fallacy.  It's a pvp game with guilds as intended feature.  If your guild can't compete in the intended outlines of the game why wouldn't you play a game suited for what you want instead of forcing a game to change to what you want it to be?  This is at least what it used to be but now...

I don't think CF is going to succeed trying to appeal to many types of gamers at launch.  They need a clear vision and a core base they are trying to get to play their game.  Is it a guild vs guild game, is it factions, is it a moba.  Is it a noob friendly pvp conquest game?  What the hell does that even mean?  The game has no clear definition about what it is or who its for.

 

CF is all over the place.  It's a mess.  Who the custard even know what it is anymore. 

Edited by mandalore
40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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Crowfall is quickly moving away from an RPG, from an MMO, and from a throne war simulator and morphing into a MOBA (yes, even the "MMO" side of it).  I'm going to start by highlighting how this occurr

Campaign worlds are going to be where you farm discs and materials to make vessels for an advantage in HungerDome.  There are only 2 things you can progress in Crowfall. Your Vessel/Discs an

I think in addition to what's been said, free city building will help a lot in campaign progression. It shouldnt take a few hours to build a keep because you import a seed and building mats. It should

21 minutes ago, Alot said:

I'm referring to the population post launch. Pre-launch population is irrelevant. If there is no way for a casual player to start playing the game short of joining a major guild, many will not play the game. Likewise, if small guilds can't join and feasibly participate, they also will not play the game. Not everyone wants to be shoe-horned into a large guild. 

Wartribe gear doesn't have to be removed for there to be a player-driven economy and there are many major issues that are more problematic for the economy regardless. I do agree that early-game crafting needs to be buffed slightly, which will help create a market for the endless junk people are currently vendoring.

I think you have me mistaken for someone else as I am not trying to win in Crowfall, nor am I squirming. I'm simply trying to contribute to making Crowfall a solid game on launch. Given this position, you could say that I'm significantly less biased than most of the other people commenting here.

There absolutely should be rewards. They just shouldn't be so excessive that they stifle all competition. This is where the discussion about power gap came from, feel free to review those posts.

Skins, cosmetics, resources that are accessible to the rest of the game population, Eternal Kingdom stuff, these are all good rewards. Being able to craft significantly better gear because you're in a large guild is not a good reward. It's anti-competitive, and when the power gap between the haves and have nots is too large, the have nots will stop playing. 

I care about the casual because that is where population comes from. The game needs population to be fun and to be financially viable. Further, casuals have almost no voice on these forums. The vast majority of people have been here for years, are committed to a guild, and very much want their guild to "win".

I took it upon myself to play as a no-guild/small-guild casual this wipe to evaluate the experience, so perhaps I'm seeing this in a different light than many of you. Feel free to give it a shot as well, it has been really interesting and a lot of fun (but my tolerance for difficulty is pretty high). 

I really don't care what kind of trophies you get, as long as casual players can play the game. Removing Wartribe gear makes that much more difficult.

I didn't say that they wanted to drive people away. I said they wanted to "win". The unfortunate effect of shaping the game to be the easiest for them to "win" is that it will drive population away by making the game inaccessible.

You should re-read your posts, the things I speak against, you said. So you can try to paint any strawman you want, you said it, it's there.

Why in the name of everything holy would I play a game that is designed to be a guild based game, as a solo? I get people like that, and there are many games that cater to them, this isn't one of them. It was never advertised as such even back in the KS campaign. 

I see this all the time in PS2. I am a lone wolf I can do it....ten minute slater OMFG this game sucks, all I do is die...yeah join a squad bud, this is a squad based game. I have no care, mercy or time to waste on people that decide they want to play a team based game solo. If you can solo it and not whine about it, more power to ya, if not this isn't your game and we should not be advocating balancing along 5 person teams or solo players.

War tribe gear needs to go away.

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3 minutes ago, Ajokoira said:

Why in the name of everything holy would I play a game that is designed to be a guild based game, as a solo? I get people like that, and there are many games that cater to them, this isn't one of them. It was never advertised as such even back in the KS campaign. 

I see this all the time in PS2. I am a lone wolf I can do it....ten minute slater OMFG this game sucks, all I do is die...yeah join a squad bud, this is a squad based game. I have no care, mercy or time to waste on people that decide they want to play a team based game solo. If you can solo it and not whine about it, more power to ya, if not this isn't your game and we should not be advocating balancing along 5 person teams or solo players.

War tribe gear needs to go away.

Let me get this straight, ya'll think Crowfall is going to succeed by appealing to only large guilds? 🤣

 

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49 minutes ago, Alot said:

you could say that I'm significantly less biased than most of the other people commenting here.

Given that your arguments largely consist of ad hominems and insinuations against the bogeyman "large guilds" I wouldn't agree.

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10 hours ago, MacDeath said:

In a PvP game, the players ARE the content.

People love to say this, but no one wants to do the content that exists. So now we don't have players, which means we don't have PvP content.

In the immortal words of that one disembodied dude from that one movie about corn fields: "If you build it they will come." It doesn't work the other way around.

10 hours ago, BarriaKarl said:

There is plenty to do. And doing them would be more fun if there was a challenge to it instead of me being able to do it afk.

10 hours ago, Coiote said:

Although there is a lot to be improved, the game has a lot of content already. What is lacking is guilds doing that content.

The message is pretty clear. Crowfall is selling, no one is buying. Might be time for a change.

 

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2 hours ago, mandalore said:

I don't think CF is going to succeed trying to appeal to many types of gamers at launch.  They need a clear vision and a core base they are trying to get to play their game.  Is it a guild vs guild game, is it factions, is it a moba.  Is it a noob friendly pvp conquest game?  What the hell does that even mean?  The game has no clear definition about what it is or who its for.

CF is all over the place.  It's a mess.  Who the custard even know what it is anymore. 

They have changed and abandoned so many systems now, there is no easy way out or one fix. I am afraid we are now at the point of either releasing as a sub-par BR/Moba or going back to redesign since none of the current game systems work together cohesively. As you said, the developers havent been forthcoming as to their changed goals.

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2 hours ago, Ajokoira said:

War tribe gear needs to go away.

Here is the crux, you cant take away WT gear now without changing alot of other systems. I agree it was a terrible decision to add it since it was a bandaid to solve a larger issue, lack of economy at the time(and still to this day). There was also passive skills back then, so that factor also complicated things for new player gearing since... yes you guessed it, no economy to provide alternate pathing. 

Simply too many ad hoc changes have been made to fix this train wreck without a total rebuild.

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2 hours ago, Alot said:

Let me get this straight, ya'll think Crowfall is going to succeed by appealing to only large guilds? 🤣

 

No one ever said that, I certainly didn't. I do not however, think the soloist and two person guilds are what the game should be focused on nor balanced around. It should be balanced around guilds trying to take each others castles and holding land to acquire resources. If you can have fun soloing within that criteria, great for you! If not, there is most definitely a game out there for you.

 

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9 minutes ago, Ajokoira said:

It should be balanced around guilds trying to take each others castles and holding land to acquire resources. If you can have fun soloing within that criteria, great for you! 

I have to ask what should players do if they are playing outside of siege windows? There simply is very little content or even the ability for players to make content. You bring up holding land, yet no real territory system in game. Resources also got the short stick for development time, how can anyone expect a heavy resource/crafting game could exist without economy I dont know. If you think there are problems playing while being able to take advantage of siege windows, imagine what folks run into when they cant play in limited window.

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7 hours ago, Alot said:

The Kickstarter was based around passive training. Many of us backed early because we were hopeful for an MMO that didn't heavily penalize casual players.

You have to remember that most of the early backers of Crowfall were old Shadowbane players who are now in their 30s and 40s. Most people have lives, jobs, and families. Being required to invest 30hrs+ per week to remain competitive is not the game most of us thought we were backing. 

Reducing the power gap between the no lifers and the casuals is not a kick in the teeth unless you absolutely need that power gap to win or have fun. But then, what does it say about your skills if this is the case? 

At the end of the day, pvp effectiveness can come from skills or stats. No lifers are advocating for a game that weights heavily toward stats because they have an immense amount of time to acquire said stats. People without as much time would prefer a more skill-based game where they can compete, albeit at a small disadvantage. There are far, far more casual players than there are no-lifers. Which path do you think is going to lead to higher population, more fun, and a more developed game? All of those things benefit you as well.

That's what they're trying to do. Wartribe gear is a major part of this. The weird thing is that the people calling for Wartribe gear to be nerfed or removed are not impacted by it in any way, they don't have to use it themselves and have far better gear to use within weeks of wipe. It's purely crab mentality and incredibly short-sighted.

I was very sad to see the passive skill system removed. And here is why. In other MMOs, some of our guildmates were able to invest massive amounts of time in leveling their characters (so called no-lifers) while other guildies had much less time to invest in the game. Over time, the no-lifers would have shot ahead of their more casual mates and these two subsets of guildmates would be on very different content. That's one of the downfalls to a leveling game.

An early concept was that crowfallers wouldn't need to grind levels, that we all skill leveled at much the same rate no matter how much time we had to invest in the game.  But, over time, ACE decided to make CF a game where we level up by doing stuff in game. Now it's hard to be a useful contributor to your guilds gathering or crafting unless you do it a LOT.

I want a system where all members feel like they add value to the guild, no matter how much time they can invest.

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2 hours ago, mystafyi said:

Here is the crux, you cant take away WT gear now without changing alot of other systems. I agree it was a terrible decision to add it since it was a bandaid to solve a larger issue, lack of economy at the time(and still to this day). There was also passive skills back then, so that factor also complicated things for new player gearing since... yes you guessed it, no economy to provide alternate pathing. 

Simply too many ad hoc changes have been made to fix this train wreck without a total rebuild.

I think they need to nerf the power level of the gear gratly to be inbetween low end crafted gear and intermediate gear, however keep it relevant by allow people to salvage the gear for components for stats they normally cant get via crafting but can gte on mob dropped gear like dmg to low HP/power effiency and so on and have that be addictive to gear much like hunger shards are.

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30 minutes ago, MacDeath said:

I was very sad to see the passive skill system removed. And here is why. In other MMOs, some of our guildmates were able to invest massive amounts of time in leveling their characters (so called no-lifers) while other guildies had much less time to invest in the game. Over time, the no-lifers would have shot ahead of their more casual mates and these two subsets of guildmates would be on very different content. That's one of the downfalls to a leveling game.

That doesn't really happen in Crowfall. The levelling is so fast that you finish it in a night and then you are on the same content as everyone else. No-lifers "shooting ahead" is a boon to the casuals in the guild. They can provide even more resources and gear that helps everyone in the guild, including the casuals. It's not like the level 35s are off doing raid dungeons that the level 30s can't do.

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28 minutes ago, MacDeath said:

I was very sad to see the passive skill system removed. And here is why. In other MMOs, some of our guildmates were able to invest massive amounts of time in leveling their characters (so called no-lifers) while other guildies had much less time to invest in the game. Over time, the no-lifers would have shot ahead of their more casual mates and these two subsets of guildmates would be on very different content. That's one of the downfalls to a leveling game.

An early concept was that crowfallers wouldn't need to grind levels, that we all skill leveled at much the same rate no matter how much time we had to invest in the game.  But, over time, ACE decided to make CF a game where we level up by doing stuff in game. Now it's hard to be a useful contributor to your guilds gathering or crafting unless you do it a LOT.

I want a system where all members feel like they add value to the guild, no matter how much time they can invest.

I was sad to see the passive skill system go because it encouraged you to specialize into 1 specific race and one specific class and then into 1 specific specialization of that class. without it, everyone just switches to whatever class they feel they need at the time, instead of searching for a buddy with the class they need. I would much rather be the guy known for crafting the best human leather gloves you can get, rather than the "well he's a decent healer but he can't play dps classes and i suppose he makes an okay bow and maybe boots but his helmets are trash. 

I mean wasn't crowfall suppose to be the game where you HAD to make the HARD choice of what you were going to be: whether that was a combat focused crowd controlling knight on horseback, or a fat little rodent that was for some reason better at chopping trees down than everyone one else and sold his best lumber to that centaur woodcrafter that pretty much only makes bow's BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT HE WANTED TO BE BETTER AT THAN EVERYONE ELSE, SO THAT'S WHAT HE FOCUSED HIS PASSIVE TRAINING ON. 

The Dev's have pulled a 180 on what they originally sold us. Does anyone feel like they have to make a hard choice that has everlasting effects? Does anyone feel any attachment to any character they've ever made? Are you happy that you can do everything equally as well as everyone else, and that they can do it as equally well as you? 

A lot of you want certain features like guild leveling, or a different banking system, etc. etc., me, i just want a character that i can feel proud of and I can't switch him out for a different one without taking a serious hit to my overall effectiveness.

All the arguments against the old systems had answers to them. Skill tomes, resets, insurance, etc. but instead of allowing those systems to fill in the gaps, some of you whined and whined about what happens if someone's not happy with his character, then just quits... NOPE can't have that, everyone should be able to play ever class and every race at all times whenever they want to, and at full effectiveness as everyone else.  

Just release and let it die, so we can move on.

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33 minutes ago, Jah said:

That doesn't really happen in Crowfall. The levelling is so fast that you finish it in a night and then you are on the same content as everyone else. No-lifers "shooting ahead" is a boon to the casuals in the guild. They can provide even more resources and gear that helps everyone in the guild, including the casuals. It's not like the level 35s are off doing raid dungeons that the level 30s can't do.

If you think leveling is so fast that you can 'finish it in a night' you must only be looking at one aspect of the leveling up process. You aren't going to level up your crafting discs and belts in a single night. It takes weeks to get the gold needed for the Dom dust to upgrade your discs and belts. It takes weeks of killing stuff to advance from Level 32 to 33 just to be able to equip your purple vessel and begin to level to 34, etc.

Yer right, that getting to 35 doesn't give one access to dungeons that 30s can't access, but it does make you a lot more viable in PvP.

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The systems in the game are just not feeding into themselves. Let's count the features in the game.

We have:

  • Resource Harvesting
  • Equipment Crafting
  • Disciplines and Thralls
  • Outposts, Forts, Keeps, and Castles
  • Wartribe Encampments
  • Caravans and City Building
  • Races, Classes and Promotions
  • Vessels
  • Eternal Kingdoms, Building and Parcel Placement, and Stonemasonry
  • Conquest, Divine Favor, and Leaderboard Scoring

Now, how do they tie into each other to create a never ending cycle? They don't, not really. Why would you harvest resources? To craft better gear. Once you have better gear, what do you do? Wait for it to break, I guess? Then do it over again. This loop kinda sort, but not really works. Historically because it takes too long for crafted gear to break. So what happens is if you keep farming while your gear is fresh, you'll have massive stockpiles sitting around, waiting to be used once gear starts breaking. Then you'll only harvest once stockpiles start running low, but not only in bursts to refill stock. This does not create a lived in world.

Why do you want Disciplines? To flesh out your build. Where do you get them? From crafting, harvesting, or Major Thralls. What do you need to upgrade them? Gold. Where do you get gold? Wartribes. Once you get legendary disciplines, what do you do? ..... Once you reach the top, you no longer have need for gold or disciplines for your character. Not necessarily a bad thing, but the loop does end once you have legendary disciplines. Though, the devs do want to add more disciplines down the road, so the loop would start again to get the new disciplines to legendary.

Why do you want Outposts, Forts, Keeps, and Castles? Keeps and Castles provide a home base for guilds with a permanent respawn and provide services and buffs to the owners. Forts generate resources to build up Forts, Keeps, and Castles. Outposts provide temporary buffs and respawn. Also, Divine Favor sometimes gives point for some of these objectives. How do you rank up Keeps and Castles? Materials from Forts and Caravans and Artifacts from Wartribes. What do you do once you have a Rank 10 Keep with Rank 3 Buildings? .... Building Materials in the current campaign become irrelevant since you only need more if a building or wall gets destroyed. If you keep building up stores of building materials, you can take them into future campaigns to rank up future keeps and still have a surplus from that campaign. You don't really need to keep farming materials once you max out a keep or castle. As such, Forts and Caravans too become irrelevant. Outposts are always irrelevant. You only take them when you want them for something, or hold a few if you're within striking range of an opponent, but that's it. You could compete with a Castle through outposts, if you hold every outpost every hour. This is impractical, however, as your opponents are likely to have more than 1 Keep or Castle as well as multiple Forts. You'd also have to be online 24/7 and constantly defending your outposts.

Why do you want a vessel? To min max your character and get better stats. What do you need to get one? Minerals from Quarrymen for an Alchemist to make Ambrosia and Philosopher Stones, and body parts and additives from a Grave Digger. Once you have a legendary vessel, what do you do? ....  Once you have a purple or legendary body, you're done. If there's a balance patch, maybe you'd want a new vessel, but who knows how often that'll happen. Not necessarily a bad thing, but, again, he loop does stop once all your characters are in legendary bodies.

What do you in your Eternal Kingdom? Place buildings and parcels. Why? To add more storage and vendors. How do you do that? Through Stonemasonry. What do you need to do it? An Imperial Metric custardton of white resources from mining, quarrying, and logging, each. How does this tie in with the other systems? It doesn't. Sure, Stonemasonry is a great sink for excess resources and you can sell things to other players there, but there's no tie in to anything else. Build out your Eternal Kingdom to fit your needs, then you're done. With how bare bones Eternal Kingdoms are, you don't even get that "Come look at this cool thing I built" that other housing systems in other games have. You even get lots of wall pieces and vendor stalls for winning in campaigns, but with how restrictive the parcel token system is, they're unusable and clog bank space.

These systems are just not looping back into themselves to keep players playing. Once you get like a Blue or Purple Vessel with Purple gear and have crafters and harvesters with legendary disciplines and belts, you done. You can play in a couple campaigns, but there's no reason to keep doing it. ACE needs to fix these some of these issues before launch or the population will nose dive a month after launch and then slowly bleed out the remaining players until there's no one left.

 

 

I will add my $0.02 on the topic of Wartribe vs Crafter gear, though. You guys are misattributing the problem to wartribe gear. Low and mid-tier gear has always, since the beginning, been useless. Remove wartribe gear today and what happens? People still aren't gonna buy your poorly made dergsty white, green, and blue gear if they can buy purple gear from another crafter who is maxed out. It's the same problem we had with the passive skill tree. NO ONE WANTS GEAR FROM A CRAFTER WHO'S NOT MAX! Nerfing tribe gear won't fix that problem. If there's no tribe gear, sure green and blue gear might be useful for about 2 weeks, but once purple gear starts entering the market white, green, and blue gear becomes irrelevant again. In my opinion, if we could salvage crafted and wartribe gear to get tokens that can be placed in better crafted gear, that would fix, if not alleviate, the problem. ACE took out passive training thinking that would fix the issue with the disparity between maxed and not maxed crafters, but instead they just made it so you could grind past it. They never addressed the issue, and nerfing or removing wartribe gear won't either.

Edited by coolster50

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You Can't Be A Genius, If You Aren't The Slightest Bit Insane.

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8 hours ago, Ajokoira said:

As to the "large guilds etc. that is absolute crap. It has nothing to do with "wanting to win" let me let you in on a secret, if the big guilds want to win, they are going to, no matter how much you squirm. What they want is competition as PvP sucks when you can just steamroll the entire rest of the game.

Guess it depends on what "competition" means, but if guilds/players wanted a competitive experience with the health of the game in mind, forming up into relatively large guilds and alliances doesn't seem like a means to that end. Rolling around in relatively large groups steamrolling smaller/newer folks wouldn't be an means to that end. Wanting to make the game less accessible by removing dropped gear, requiring a large and organized guild, and having to pump hours into a half baked product seems to be anti-competitive to me.

I find it funny people say there are "zergs" when barely anyone plays this thing, but I guess 5v10 is a zerg to some.

Some players/guilds have attempted to help less organized and newer players, even breaking up their guilds in the process, but overall it seems like those set on winning a game in development have done so with their interests and not the game's in mind.

7 hours ago, Ajokoira said:

Why in the name of everything holy would I play a game that is designed to be a guild based game, as a solo? I get people like that, and there are many games that cater to them, this isn't one of them. It was never advertised as such even back in the KS campaign. 

War tribe gear needs to go away.

The game doesn't have to be balanced or designed with only X in mind, but a MMO needs a population and that only happens if it is accessible. ACE's answer to lack of PVE and PVP specific features is "players are the content." Ganking people banging on rocks as a limited fun factor. 

Removing War Tribe gear doesn't solve or improve anything unless several other significant changes to multiple systems take place which going by their roadmap, aren't planned pre or even post launch. Just as adding it didn't make the overall game better, it was a bandaid for half baked systems that are in some ways less baked then they were before or flat out removed like passive training.

 


 

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7 hours ago, mandalore said:

The game has no clear definition about what it is or who its for.

CF is all over the place.  It's a mess.  Who the custard even know what it is anymore. 

Going by their marketing it redefines the MMO genre because you can win and change the world FOREVER.

Which is a bunch of hot air as players can't change the world at all and they go poof so "forever" might be a bit off.

Being able to win a time limited points driven match is far from new. Wrapping it up in a lacking MMO package is new and that's about it.

The two lines in bold couldn't be any more relevant 5 years later. 😄

WHERE DID WE GO WRONG?

There was a time when our industry took CHANCES.

Our games didn’t have to appeal to everyone, and we didn’t judge ourselves solely on mass market success.

With amusement park games, it’s impossible to lose. With sandbox games, it’s impossible to win.

If you can’t win and you can’t lose, then

WHAT'S THE POINT OF PLAYING?

I don’t want to kill more rats, fill another experience point bar or collect another meaningless badge.

I want to play a GAME, against PLAYERS where my actions, my decisions and my SKILL will determine if I win or lose.

Allies. Enemies. Alliances. Betrayal. Risk. Conquest. To compete with THOUSANDS of other players for a chance to claim the THRONE.

Even if I lose, the experience won’t feel hollow. I don’t want another worthless trophy.

I WANT TO PLAY TO CRUSH.

 


 

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1 hour ago, APE said:

Going by their marketing it redefines the MMO genre because you can win and change the world FOREVER.

Which is a bunch of hot air as players can't change the world at all and they go poof so "forever" might be a bit off.

Being able to win a time limited points driven match is far from new. Wrapping it up in a lacking MMO package is new and that's about it.

The two lines in bold couldn't be any more relevant 5 years later. 😄

WHERE DID WE GO WRONG?

There was a time when our industry took CHANCES.

Our games didn’t have to appeal to everyone, and we didn’t judge ourselves solely on mass market success.

With amusement park games, it’s impossible to lose. With sandbox games, it’s impossible to win.

If you can’t win and you can’t lose, then

WHAT'S THE POINT OF PLAYING?

I don’t want to kill more rats, fill another experience point bar or collect another meaningless badge.

I want to play a GAME, against PLAYERS where my actions, my decisions and my SKILL will determine if I win or lose.

Allies. Enemies. Alliances. Betrayal. Risk. Conquest. To compete with THOUSANDS of other players for a chance to claim the THRONE.

Even if I lose, the experience won’t feel hollow. I don’t want another worthless trophy.

I WANT TO PLAY TO CRUSH.

Where’s that game?  I want to play that game...

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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  • The game world design is bland. It's just as much where you fight in the world as it is how you fight. The world feels sterile and artificial; there's no interesting places to fight and the battles are fairly forgettable.
  • Combat is bland and boring; some of the combat animations are nonsensical. Too number sensitive, and more focused on gear over skill.
  • "Winning" doesn't feel like winning.
  • Performance is butthole and doesn't look like it will improve much without drastic measures.
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9 hours ago, APE said:

Guess it depends on what "competition" means, but if guilds/players wanted a competitive experience with the health of the game in mind, forming up into relatively large guilds and alliances doesn't seem like a means to that end. Rolling around in relatively large groups steamrolling smaller/newer folks wouldn't be an means to that end. Wanting to make the game less accessible by removing dropped gear, requiring a large and organized guild, and having to pump hours into a half baked product seems to be anti-competitive to me.

I find it funny people say there are "zergs" when barely anyone plays this thing, but I guess 5v10 is a zerg to some.

Some players/guilds have attempted to help less organized and newer players, even breaking up their guilds in the process, but overall it seems like those set on winning a game in development have done so with their interests and not the game's in mind.

The game doesn't have to be balanced or designed with only X in mind, but a MMO needs a population and that only happens if it is accessible. ACE's answer to lack of PVE and PVP specific features is "players are the content." Ganking people banging on rocks as a limited fun factor. 

Removing War Tribe gear doesn't solve or improve anything unless several other significant changes to multiple systems take place which going by their roadmap, aren't planned pre or even post launch. Just as adding it didn't make the overall game better, it was a bandaid for half baked systems that are in some ways less baked then they were before or flat out removed like passive training.

lol you're right, big guilds ONLY exist to destroy the game. Man...I wish I could remember that web site that was so useful for crafting...WB, Winterblades....man I just wish I could remember. Or the theory crafting site....hmmm.

Anyway, yeah big guilds must exist solely for that purpose. Just like as I can see from your posts you exist purely to complain. Never offering solutions, just throwing out negative doom and gloom stuff. 

Love those generalizations. Keep em coming!

Wartribe gear was a band aid that should have been removed long ago, and there is absolutely no good argument against that.

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