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Game Direction - Losing Crowfall as an MMORPG Throne War


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14 hours ago, mystafyi said:

I have to ask what should players do if they are playing outside of siege windows? There simply is very little content or even the ability for players to make content. You bring up holding land, yet no real territory system in game. Resources also got the short stick for development time, how can anyone expect a heavy resource/crafting game could exist without economy I dont know. If you think there are problems playing while being able to take advantage of siege windows, imagine what folks run into when they cant play in limited window.

WoW...I am surprised I need to explain this, I mean its been brought up time and again, but then again it's you, and you just wan to argue for the sake of arguing. It shouldn't surprise me any more.

So, I said balanced towards that end, I never said that is all the game should be. I have mentioned it in other posts, there needs to be a lot of changes and balancing around solo play is not one of them. If you want to actually discuss and be taken seriously, read the entire thread before you start quoting single posts that only support your (faulty) narrative. Thanks.

Edited by Ajokoira
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12 hours ago, MacDeath said:

I was very sad to see the passive skill system removed. And here is why. In other MMOs, some of our guildmates were able to invest massive amounts of time in leveling their characters (so called no-lifers) while other guildies had much less time to invest in the game. Over time, the no-lifers would have shot ahead of their more casual mates and these two subsets of guildmates would be on very different content. That's one of the downfalls to a leveling game.

An early concept was that crowfallers wouldn't need to grind levels, that we all skill leveled at much the same rate no matter how much time we had to invest in the game.  But, over time, ACE decided to make CF a game where we level up by doing stuff in game. Now it's hard to be a useful contributor to your guilds gathering or crafting unless you do it a LOT.

I want a system where all members feel like they add value to the guild, no matter how much time they can invest.

I was sad to see the passive system go as well. I argued against it and was told it was the utopia that was needed to "fix" the game, or at least one of the major hurdles. But here we are, wish granted and seeing many of the downsides to losing that system. It was not the best iteration of a passive system in existence, it needed work, for certain but it was (imo) better than what we have now, another grind built into a non-grind game.

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19 minutes ago, Ajokoira said:

I was sad to see the passive system go as well. I argued against it and was told it was the utopia that was needed to "fix" the game, or at least one of the major hurdles. But here we are, wish granted and seeing many of the downsides to losing that system. It was not the best iteration of a passive system in existence, it needed work, for certain but it was (imo) better than what we have now, another grind built into a non-grind game.

It was terrible. It actively discouraged people from playing, and that just doesn't mesh with a game genre that people are used to playing a lot in order to advance. I certainly agree that the current grind system is not great, but improving an active progression system is better use of time than improving a passive progression system, for an MMORPG, IMO.

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14 minutes ago, Ajokoira said:

I was sad to see the passive system go as well. I argued against it and was told it was the utopia that was needed to "fix" the game, or at least one of the major hurdles. But here we are, wish granted and seeing many of the downsides to losing that system. It was not the best iteration of a passive system in existence, it needed work, for certain but it was (imo) better than what we have now, another grind built into a non-grind game.

And what downsides are those?

Yeah people had to grind (aka play the game) for one whole week to get viable. Gasp!

Im happy i can tell newbies they just need to grind for a few days (1 or 2?) before they can start contributing instead of saying they are forever useless.

I get some of you people cant play many hours and all, but the grind here is almost no grind at all.

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1 minute ago, BarriaKarl said:

And what downsides are those?

Yeah people had to grind (aka play the game) for one whole week to get viable. Gasp!

Im happy i can tell newbies they just need to grind for a few days (1 or 2?) before they can start contributing instead of saying they are forever useless.

I get some of you people cant play many hours and all, but the grind here is almost no grind at all.

Agreed. Watching our donations tab, with people donating as much as they can relative to how much they played, it is great. Much, much better than simply reading discord messages that they'd maybe be back in 2 months when they could finally gravedig.

Edited by McTan
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45 minutes ago, Ajokoira said:

lol you're right, big guilds ONLY exist to destroy the game. Man...I wish I could remember that web site that was so useful for crafting...WB, Winterblades....man I just wish I could remember. Or the theory crafting site....hmmm.

Anyway, yeah big guilds must exist solely for that purpose. Just like as I can see from your posts you exist purely to complain. Never offering solutions, just throwing out negative doom and gloom stuff. 

Love those generalizations. Keep em coming!

Wartribe gear was a band aid that should have been removed long ago, and there is absolutely no good argument against that.

I didn't mention anyone wanting to destroy the game. I was responding to your comment that guilds want competition because steamrolling is boring, yet that is exactly what started happening as soon as it was possible years ago. How many trials did WB/HOA win in a row?

Also mentioned that some guilds have gone out of their way to help others so not sure how my comment was "large guilds ONLY want to destroy the game." I have enough words, no need to put them in my mouth.

It is also possible for people to do to things that both help and harm something.

I've been around since the very start and have offered plenty of positive and constructive feedback and disagreed with so called doomsayers. However, I'm not a "yes person" just agreeing with every change while people buried their heads and said things like "don't worry about it they'll figure it out."

Ex: Passive Training, I gave a lot of ideas and feedback and was told to shhhh it will be fine. That turned out great. Same goes for combat changes, character building, world building, EK, economy, lack of PVP content and things to do outside of siege, campaigns lacking diversity in rulesets, testing lacking focus, etc. Heck I remember arguing with people that were against having autorun in the game...

Please feel free to point out anything that I mentioned that is flat out wrong based upon my experience and the state of the game today.

Wartribe gear being added/removed isn't done in a vacuum. It impacts the entire game. The underlying cut that it was a bandaid for still exists and since it was applied, more have appeared requiring more bandaids. I'd enjoy a game fully focused on a player driven economy but that requires features, tools, and systems that Crowfall lacks. WT gear existing is not why this game is in the state it is with a ghost town population.

Edited by APE

 


 

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26 minutes ago, McTan said:

It was terrible. It actively discouraged people from playing, and that just doesn't mesh with a game genre that people are used to playing a lot in order to advance. I certainly agree that the current grind system is not great, but improving an active progression system is better use of time than improving a passive progression system, for an MMORPG, IMO.

Well, as a wise old engineer once told me, to every complex problem there is a simple solution... AND IT'S ALWAYS WRONG!

What was needed, imo, was a hybrid system combining passive AND active elements. But ACE went for the simple solution and tossed the baby out with the bathwater.

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53 minutes ago, MacDeath said:

Well, as a wise old engineer once told me, to every complex problem there is a simple solution... AND IT'S ALWAYS WRONG!

What was needed, imo, was a hybrid system combining passive AND active elements. But ACE went for the simple solution and tossed the baby out with the bathwater.

I generally agree that active/passive hybrid would have worked, but I prefer what we have over what we had, and I think it gives them a better platform to engage us in actively playing the game. Might be just me though.

I'd like for them to better parse out where you can upgrade, so that they force several upgrades to happen on Dregs. Maybe to upgrade toolbelts and discs we need certain Dregs tokens. I dunno, just hoping they make a good system.

Edit: I'll just add that I think active progression addresses the fundamental problem in Crowfall worlds: something to do.

Edited by McTan
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1 hour ago, BarriaKarl said:

And what downsides are those?

Yeah people had to grind (aka play the game) for one whole week to get viable. Gasp!

Im happy i can tell newbies they just need to grind for a few days (1 or 2?) before they can start contributing instead of saying they are forever useless.

I get some of you people cant play many hours and all, but the grind here is almost no grind at all.

This game was started as "no grind" and yet here we are having to grind...so there is a downside. They just need to grind for 1 or 2 days? lol ok, so how do they get gear? Improve gear? It's all grinding mats, very little grinding levels, I grant that, but grinding better crafting equipment and gathering equipment (belts/Discs) so you can grind better mats to make better equipment etc. I mean the examples are pretty obvious.

As I said previously, the passive system needed a serious revamp however, one really good example is the system eve uses where you can boost passive progression by playing the game. That would eliminate players feeling...inadequate or unable to contribute. A hybrid system. 

For the record, I am semi-retired I could dedicate 40 hours/week to this game if I wanted to (when I don't have a class in session as I do right now) but why would I? The game has gotten progressively more and more boring, pointless, and unappealing with every update for the last 6 months. imo. So, again, why would I? And now we have all the people that were advocates of taking away the passive system falling on their swords saying  no, grinding is awesome! its the best. lol ok.

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1 hour ago, MacDeath said:

Well, as a wise old engineer once told me, to every complex problem there is a simple solution... AND IT'S ALWAYS WRONG!

What was needed, imo, was a hybrid system combining passive AND active elements. But ACE went for the simple solution and tossed the baby out with the bathwater.

Pretty much nailed it. Could not agree more!

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2 hours ago, McTan said:

It was terrible. It actively discouraged people from playing, and that just doesn't mesh with a game genre that people are used to playing a lot in order to advance.

The very simple solution to this was adding a catch-up mechanic. Ripping out the only system that made Crowfall somewhat unique and replacing it with yet another grind was not productive. Many of us backed the Kickstarter because they were very explicit about the lack of grind and the passive skill system was core to that.

Said catch-up mechanic could have been another revenue source for ArtCraft as would all of the additional accounts and VIP for people's alts. This would have led to ArtCraft having resources to continue to improve the game. Instead, they've created a system that financially benefits (future) RMTers rather than themselves, and rewards no-life gaming over a having healthy lifestyle.  

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34 minutes ago, Alot said:

The very simple solution to this was adding a catch-up mechanic. Ripping out the only system that made Crowfall somewhat unique and replacing it with yet another grind was not productive. Many of us backed the Kickstarter because they were very explicit about the lack of grind and the passive skill system was core to that.

Said catch-up mechanic could have been another revenue source for ArtCraft as would all of the additional accounts and VIP for people's alts. This would have led to ArtCraft having resources to continue to improve the game. Instead, they've created a system that financially benefits (future) RMTers rather than themselves, and rewards no-life gaming over a having healthy lifestyle.  

Your simple solution is a P2W catch-up mechanism that charges new player more than old players?

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7 hours ago, Jah said:

Your simple solution is a P2W catch-up mechanism that charges new player more than old players?

Pay to catch up? Sure. That's one option. I think Eve uses it. Albion uses it.

What problem are you seeing? The important thing here is that this mechanism already exists as after launch there is nothing stopping anyone from buying in-game resources with real $$. This will inevitably be part of the game. It's rather a question of who receives that money. RMTers or ArtCraft. I would prefer ArtCraft, so that they can continue to improve the game.

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Just now, Alot said:

Pay to catch up? Sure. That's one option. I think Eve uses it. Albion uses it.

What problem are you seeing?

Telling potential new players that they will have to pay more than old players to be competitive is a hard sell. I would expect it to restrict the growth of Crowfall's audience. That is a problem.

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7 hours ago, Jah said:

Telling potential new players that they will have to pay more than old players to be competitive is a hard sell. I would expect it to restrict the growth of Crowfall's audience. That is a problem.

It doesn't seem to be a problem for Albion or EVE. What is the problem you're seeing? 

I think most MMO players know they either need to grind or pay to catch up. It wouldn't be an MMO otherwise.

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2 minutes ago, Alot said:

Pay to catch up? Sure. That's one option. I think Eve uses it. Albion uses it.

What problem are you seeing? The important thing here is that this mechanism already exists as after launch there is nothing stopping anyone from buying in-game resources with real $$. This will inevitably be part of the game. It's rather a question of who receives that money. RMTers or ArtCraft. I would prefer ArtCraft, so that they can continue to improve the game.

Have you done the research to determine how much an RMTer could earn per hour of farming? I'm asking for a friend

 

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Just now, Alot said:

What is the problem you're seeing? 

Not getting new players because they think it is unfair to pay more than old players is the problem I am seeing. I thought that was clear.

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7 hours ago, Jah said:

Not getting new players because they think it is unfair to pay more than old players is the problem I am seeing. I thought that was clear.

Why do you think this is not a problem for EVE or Albion? I'm just having trouble following because you haven't provided much rationale or evidence. 

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7 hours ago, MacDeath said:

Have you done the research to determine how much an RMTer could earn per hour of farming? I'm asking for a friend

In which game? In Albion it highly depends on your skill level, team, and activity. It can be quite lucrative, hundreds of dollars per hour if you win tournaments. 

Edit: oh, farming. I don't really know. It's probably a pretty low hourly wage as it's very accessible.

Edited by Alot
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Just now, Alot said:

Why do you think this is not a problem for EVE or Albion? I'm just having trouble following because you haven't provided much rationale or evidence. 

Neither EVE nor Albion charge $50 to buy the game as a "buy once, play forever" deal.

It odd that you are struggling to understand how charging new players more might discourage them.

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