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All versions of stealth should drain stamina.

Stamina drain rates could be reduced by minors that already provide stealth abilities that do not currently offer minor stat bonuses (at their highest quality version).

Also make it so that damage-over-time effects and direct damage and CC effects do not immediately remove you from stealth, but instead take a larger chunk of your stamina with each hit while in stealth.
 - Only reveal abilities should act as an immediate counter to stealth, regardless of player's stamina.

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I like it. Better than what we have today for sure. Dots costing stam is a really interesting idea.

Id add dashes in stealth should also cost stam. Rats' tunnel or whatever is the bs power that makes them disappear to the other side of the map should cost a LOT of stam.

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I wouldnt have it taking stamina tbh cause it leave u venerable when exiting it, i would have it last a duration though 30-45 seconds should be fine i think since it give u plenty of time to pick a target but stealth isnt a get out of jail free card for 90% of the classes.

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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Of all the things I wish for Stealth, a similar mechanic for pulling you out of stealth that is used for being dismounted is one of them. 

I really don't like the binary (you stubbed a toe, now everyone can see you) way all damage of all kinds simply pulls you out of stealth.  Poison DOT's, Bleeds, AOE physical damage, etc, should not have the same chance making you seen as being set on fire. 

Stamina drain no, durability hits on gear, yes. 

Maybe you can't recover stamina while your in stealth would not be too bad. To have it reduce while hiding, when retaliate hinges on you having it, it's just too crippling. 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
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4 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Of all the things I wish for Stealth, a similar mechanic for pulling you out of stealth that is used for being dismounted is one of them. 

I really don't like the binary (you stubbed a toe, now everyone can see you) way all damage of all kinds simply pulls you out of stealth.  Poison DOT's, Bleeds, AOE physical damage, etc, should not have the same chance making you seen as being set on fire. 

Stamina drain no, durability hits on gear, yes. 

Maybe you can't recover stamina while your in stealth would not be too bad. To have it reduce while hiding, when retaliate hinges on you having it, it's just too crippling. 

The ease of being bumped out is silly to me too, but it is contrasted by the infinite and mobile invisibility it grants. As it is, it also feels mandatory to have as a harvesting character, with the pros heavily outweighing the cons in comparison to other class options. I like the idea of an invisible threshold similar to the current dismount logic.

I'm not sure if I am misreading, but are you suggesting durability damage to gear while in stealth? I think this places an unintuitive tax on classes that have stealth and doesn't really support stealth as a playstyle. I'd like to see it more strategically used, but don't really see the issue with someone sitting in stealth not moving indefinitely-- which I didn't explicitly state (my bad) but I think that would be what I was thinking, similar to the camo & burrow racials.

As for the stamina drain leaving you vulnerable to CC -- I actually really liked the old dizzy/down effect as a punishment for stealth/ooc so I might be biased here -- the stamina drain rate could be negligible over short durations of use, or even have a stacking rate that increases over time. 

If the rate was balanced out so that you are able to use stealth during a fight for strategic repositioning, or effective scouting, with the risk of losing too much stamina to retaliate increasing the longer you are in it, I think that would be a good trade off. The goal being to avoid having players use stealth classes to move across the entire map unabated, or even just large areas of the map, specifically to move between strategic resources and banks, or banks and keeps.

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1 hour ago, Lightsig said:

The ease of being bumped out is silly to me too, but it is contrasted by the infinite and mobile invisibility it grants. As it is, it also feels mandatory to have as a harvesting character, with the pros heavily outweighing the cons in comparison to other class options. I like the idea of an invisible threshold similar to the current dismount logic.

I'm not sure if I am misreading, but are you suggesting durability damage to gear while in stealth? I think this places an unintuitive tax on classes that have stealth and doesn't really support stealth as a playstyle. I'd like to see it more strategically used, but don't really see the issue with someone sitting in stealth not moving indefinitely-- which I didn't explicitly state (my bad) but I think that would be what I was thinking, similar to the camo & burrow racials.

As for the stamina drain leaving you vulnerable to CC -- I actually really liked the old dizzy/down effect as a punishment for stealth/ooc so I might be biased here -- the stamina drain rate could be negligible over short durations of use, or even have a stacking rate that increases over time. 

If the rate was balanced out so that you are able to use stealth during a fight for strategic repositioning, or effective scouting, with the risk of losing too much stamina to retaliate increasing the longer you are in it, I think that would be a good trade off. The goal being to avoid having players use stealth classes to move across the entire map unabated, or even just large areas of the map, specifically to move between strategic resources and banks, or banks and keeps.

Probably too much engineering, but if stamina drain was like sprinting drain, only when you move, then you could sit invisible indefinitely, and spend stamina only when moving, or even have a "move slow" that prevented stamina from regenerating, and "move fast" sprint like behavior that drained stamina when used.

Or have a stamina cost for entering stealth, like retaliate has a cost, and then recover it over time while in stealth.

I'm not opposed to some cost for entering/maintaining stealth, I just don't think insuring your crippled on what you do once your out of stealth by an an ongoing zero choice stamina drain impact is the way to go. To me the durability already doesn't "make sense". It's obviously a game mechanic as it applies even if you simply LMB by accident, or are in "combat" without actually hitting anything.  Durability loss being active for stealth mean's it's not free, but it also doesn't change the balance or make it prohibitive. It also fits in the with gear decay loop.

Dizzy down was horrible. 

 

It basically meant if you were harvesting, you were dead before you could really react to attacks.  Far too wolf friendly, when they already had the massive advantage of picking the time of the attack. 
 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
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7 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Probably too much engineering, but if stamina drain was like sprinting drain, only when you move, then you could sit invisible indefinitely, and spend stamina only when moving, or even have a "move slow" that prevented stamina from regenerating, and "move fast" sprint like behavior that drained stamina when used.

Or have a stamina cost for entering stealth, like retaliate has a cost, and then recover it over time while in stealth.

I'm not opposed to some cost for entering/maintaining stealth, I just don't think insuring your crippled on what you do once your out of stealth by an an ongoing zero choice stamina drain impact is the way to go. To me the durability already doesn't "make sense". It's obviously a game mechanic as it applies even if you simply LMB by accident, or are in "combat" without actually hitting anything.  Durability loss being active for stealth mean's it's not free, but it also doesn't change the balance or make it prohibitive. It also fits in the with gear decay loop.

Dizzy down was horrible. 

 

It basically meant if you were harvesting, you were dead before you could really react to attacks.  Far too wolf friendly, when they already had the massive advantage of picking the time of the attack. 
 

I definitely think some interaction with stamina is the way to go here for balancing stealth.

I agree the old dizzy down system favored wolves, I had just hoped the population would be enough to make that an expected risk for solo harvesting and encourage more group harvesting play (as the old leadership skill tree had implied). However, with the player base where it is, I completely understand the need now to balance things a bit more around some of the one-on-one interactions that are likely to make up a majority of interactions between PKers and Harvesters. 

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11 minutes ago, Lightsig said:

I definitely think some interaction with stamina is the way to go here for balancing stealth.

I agree the old dizzy down system favored wolves, I had just hoped the population would be enough to make that an expected risk for solo harvesting and encourage more group harvesting play (as the old leadership skill tree had implied). However, with the player base where it is, I completely understand the need now to balance things a bit more around some of the one-on-one interactions that are likely to make up a majority of interactions between PKers and Harvesters. 

That in practice was something that "looked good on paper", but this is not EvE, and harvesting is not group friendly from a "everyone has a fun time" point of view. 

Pretty much all ML harvesting is done by ONE person, using two accounts. It's only very very rarely done by groups.  The most I have seen is groups of people harvesting different materials in a a region for protection.  

Harvesting is a square peg, and groups are a round hole. They just don't fit together at all without a metric crap ton of hammering. 

 

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I can understand that perspective. To me, that would just mean we should be scrutinizing the harvest loop quite a bit more, but that would involve a lot of finessing (or hammering) depending on what appeared to be the largest contributors for why this isn't a more engaging aspect of the game while being central to its design.

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It takes specific build choices to access, and there are specific build choices available to a far larger number of builds to counter it. There are more builds capable of seeing and revealing stealthed characters than there are builds capable of stealth, and compared to non-stealth templates stealthers are pretty weak once that tool is removed from their toolbox by active counterplay.

I don't see any reason stealth needs to counter itself given the current design of perception and who has access to either stealth or perception's various flavors. If you want to hunt stealthers, you build to hunt stealthers. If you want to stealth, you build to stealth. If you want to do both, hey there's a build for that too, and all of these things are pretty well balanced against each other in my opinion.

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15 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

It takes specific build choices to access, and there are specific build choices available to a far larger number of builds to counter it. There are more builds capable of seeing and revealing stealthed characters than there are builds capable of stealth, and compared to non-stealth templates stealthers are pretty weak once that tool is removed from their toolbox by active counterplay.

I don't see any reason stealth needs to counter itself given the current design of perception and who has access to either stealth or perception's various flavors. If you want to hunt stealthers, you build to hunt stealthers. If you want to stealth, you build to stealth. If you want to do both, hey there's a build for that too, and all of these things are pretty well balanced against each other in my opinion.

I get the feeling you and I are speaking to a different interpretation of the problem. I think the system is bland and the benefits of stealth are lackluster.

The vast majority of interactions in the game do not occur in stealth. That is why the game would benefit from it being treated as a situational power in order to avoid class balance that results in the stealth-based classes underperforming in most areas of the game because of a perceived immunity that does not translate over the majority of content. This suggestion isn't just meant to stop long-haul stealth runs that result in stale gameplay for anyone running around the world, I'd also like to see some strengthening of its peeling potential so that the risk-reward tradeoffs for stealth have a clear design and intent within combat engagements.

I also think the reveal options would mean more if more of the applications of stealth were structured in a way where the expected use slotted into specific circumstances and not just universally part of all of a player's movement through the world. I don't think it is a justifiable expectation for players running around the world to rando-spam reveals into the void without provocation or reason. To me, that is the antithesis of an active and engaging system. Though, to be fair, it's probably not much of a worry when that's the entirety of the game anyway -- not active and not engaging.

By ACE's own admission stealth does not play out as they want it to and is something they intend to address in their roadmap. I look forward to it, like every last hope I've held out for with this game, and this suggestion aligns with my own high-level view of the issue.

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46 minutes ago, Lightsig said:

I get the feeling you and I are speaking to a different interpretation of the problem. I think the system is bland and the benefits of stealth are lackluster.

The vast majority of interactions in the game do not occur in stealth. That is why the game would benefit from it being treated as a situational power in order to avoid class balance that results in the stealth-based classes underperforming in most areas of the game because of a perceived immunity that does not translate over the majority of content. This suggestion isn't just meant to stop long-haul stealth runs that result in stale gameplay for anyone running around the world, I'd also like to see some strengthening of its peeling potential so that the risk-reward tradeoffs for stealth have a clear design and intent within combat engagements.

I also think the reveal options would mean more if more of the applications of stealth were structured in a way where the expected use slotted into specific circumstances and not just universally part of all of a player's movement through the world. I don't think it is a justifiable expectation for players running around the world to rando-spam reveals into the void without provocation or reason. To me, that is the antithesis of an active and engaging system. Though, to be fair, it's probably not much of a worry when that's the entirety of the game anyway -- not active and not engaging.

By ACE's own admission stealth does not play out as they want it to and is something they intend to address in their roadmap. I look forward to it, like every last hope I've held out for with this game, and this suggestion aligns with my own high-level view of the issue.

I see what you're saying, but I also don't have a problem with that. In my mind stealth in an open world PVP setting has a laser focused purpose, to allow the user to define terms of engagement in order to enable effective scouting, surprise attacks, or transportation. Avoiding or engaging on your terms is the function of stealth. Removing it from that context just kills the entire point of it IMO. I haven't really liked fighting as or against stealth in any game that went this way.

They're talking about tracking, which is a bit of a different animal and not specifically related to stealth. Tracking (if we're talking shadowbane tracking or EVE scanning) is about giving people access to a sort of "spidey sense" to more easily find or avoid encounters and understand what their environment looks like beyond render distance. It serves a complimentary but non-interfering role in regards to stealth in most cases. Generally you have a sense of Stealth being a "short range scanner" and track being a "long range scanner" Tracking absolutely gets you the "find fights easier" but it is my opinion that the difficulty of finding fights has nothing to do with the design of classes or powers and everything to do with the low population and lack of strong off-window pvp drivers.

If you want fights NOW, you play hunger dome. Fights are a risk in an open world, but not an expectation. Avoiding them when necessary and creating advantageous circumstances is one of the many gameplay skills required to succeed in such environments.

I don't understand why people want every template to be viable at everything, personally. Stealthers have a role, and it is a useful and unique role. I don't see the value in making them also good at other roles that are already well populated by non-stealth templates. That just homogenizes builds and makes it far more likely that certain templates end up in the dumpster because the meta for a given activity is always going to be "what is best at this activity" and any smart player is always going to have multiple tools in their toolbox to select at character creation for various tasks.

That's not to say if, for instance, cutthroat is intended to be great at melee 1v1s and its struggling with melee 1v1s that we shouldn't adjust it to better fill its purpose, but that is saying that I don't see the point is saying "cutthroat exists in the game and so it and every template should be viable in 1v1s, small gang, mass battle siege, mob farming, offense, and defense"

Does that make sense?

Edited by PopeUrban
Clarified point about role homogenization

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Posted (edited)

I just see it as reducing the number of players that can be interacted with and also offering nothing that compelling in terms of gameplay. So fundamentally, I don't like the system.

I understand tracking hasn't been implemented yet, but if the considerations for stealth are solely about adding a system that helps to counter stealth over a longer range, I feel that this will only reduce the active applications available to stealth, which doesn't trend towards a more effective scout/selective engagement design. I don't know much about EVE or Shadowbane, but I doubt I need to make the claim that Crowfall's campaign worlds are much smaller by comparison. This puts even more of an impetus to make stealth actually useful for something. Personally, I'd like to see tracking exist as something that applies to all players, and not something that specifically identifies stealth players. In fact, I'd like to see stealth even get around such an effect, and putting the restriction on the stealth user and not in the hands of their opponents would make for a much more compelling system imho.

Having an actual mechanic for stealth in combat engagements has nothing to do with homogenizing classes or having everyone fit every role. It means that any consideration for balance around stealth is based on the fact that it actually serves a meaningful purpose within the game that players can actively play around and visa versa.

Edited by Lightsig
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