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Player Retention Rate is way too low for launch.


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39 minutes ago, tallblokeuk said:


Regarding not finding any action... this is a problem.  Based on current server pop the worlds are just too big... BUT, can you imagine the carnage in Skypoint with just 200 people?  I'm worried about scaling too big will be dull, too small and harvesting becomes a major issue.

 

The carnage can be great, we had servers in the past (like 2+ years ago) called Abbatoir that were essential the size of a large EK where it was just dueling and fighting constantly.

They just need to have at least 1 non-capture respawn point or something so that people can respawn without going all the way back to another zone.

Harvesting? People need to not be harvesting in Infected except to just practice and figure out how the game works. I do it, others do it, but I don't think its a good thing.

If Sky Point had a direct portal from temple, there would probably be a ton more activity. Hell, they should have kept NPE be all of Gods Reach and made Infected a single map which is Sky Point.

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1 minute ago, DocHollidaze said:

 

The carnage can be great, we had servers in the past (like 2+ years ago) called Abbatoir that were essential the size of a large EK where it was just dueling and fighting constantly.

They just need to have at least 1 non-capture respawn point or something so that people can respawn without going all the way back to another zone.

Harvesting? People need to not be harvesting in Infected except to just practice and figure out how the game works. I do it, others do it, but I don't think its a good thing.

If Sky Point had a direct portal from temple, there would probably be a ton more activity. Hell, they should have kept NPE be all of Gods Reach and made Infected a single map which is Sky Point.

Harvesting on a crowded dregs would be the same

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Spent another day messing around in infected, roaming around, talking to some players in my kingdom, and goading new players from other factions to attack me.

Most of the enemy faction players would either run or try and hit me a few times then their health would get too low and they'd try and escape. I'd stop fighting and do some dancing and they mostly seemed to get it. I met up with one assassin farming a wartribe camp and we fought a few times, breaking any time his health was low so he could reset and bandage.. we developed an elaborate system of communication using emotes and jumps, but it sure would be nice if there was a better option than the African anteater ritual to communicate with these new players on the other side..

 

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I hit level 30 for the first time today and I have no idea what to do now. It was fun enough trying out the different classes but I simply do not understand what the point is long term. Infected is a pointless desert and grinding crafting mats with no purpose is demotivating to say the least. Now I am entirely willing to accept that I am missing something but the game for sure does not help me figure out what that something is.

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15 minutes ago, traja said:

I hit level 30 for the first time today and I have no idea what to do now. It was fun enough trying out the different classes but I simply do not understand what the point is long term. Infected is a pointless desert and grinding crafting mats with no purpose is demotivating to say the least. Now I am entirely willing to accept that I am missing something but the game for sure does not help me figure out what that something is.

 

Helpful feedback!

Generally the idea is to join a guild and probably go into an active campaign in "Dregs".

Was there anything about the user interface or lobby screen that you feel could have been changed to help make that more obvious? (not your fault!)

I'm wondering, what a bout some kind of pop-out banner or lobby notice that says, hey you aren;t in a guild, you should join a guild and then follow your new comrades into a Dregs campaign!"  - similar to how there is a new graphic highlighting the soon-to-be enabled HungerDome which shows up on the lobby screen.

just brainstorming ideas, because you aren't the only person having this experience, I'm certain of it

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15 hours ago, DocHollidaze said:

 

Helpful feedback!

Generally the idea is to join a guild and probably go into an active campaign in "Dregs".

Was there anything about the user interface or lobby screen that you feel could have been changed to help make that more obvious? (not your fault!)

I'm wondering, what a bout some kind of pop-out banner or lobby notice that says, hey you aren;t in a guild, you should join a guild and then follow your new comrades into a Dregs campaign!"  - similar to how there is a new graphic highlighting the soon-to-be enabled HungerDome which shows up on the lobby screen.

just brainstorming ideas, because you aren't the only person having this experience, I'm certain of it

There is obviously the guild vs. guild section that is hard to miss but nothing in the game tells you how to even join a guild. I honestly do not at this moment know where to find guilds and how to join them. Obviously I could research the subject but I think doing that is too much to ask when we are talking about overall player retention. So I would say the if you tie the entire endgame to guilds then you need a very simple and easy path for players to join the guilds. As is I don't even know where to start based on the game alone.

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9 minutes ago, traja said:

There is obviously the guild vs. guild section that is hard to miss but nothing in the game tells you how to even join a guild. I honestly do not at this moment know where to find a guilds and how to join them. Obviously I could research the subject but I think doing that is too much to ask when we are talking about overall player retention. So I would say the if you tie the entire endgame to guilds then you need a very simple and easy path for players to join the guilds. As is I don't even know where to start based on the game alone.

 

Agreed. In my quote I highlighted points of yours which I thought were especially relevant.

ACE needs to make it much easier to join a guild, and explain why players should do so, since being in a group is very critical for overall enjoyment of Crowfall and in general for just successful gameplay in the Dregs campaigns.

If any changes in that regard are delayed, then ACE should had legit Faction-based campaigns ASAP. In players have the opportunity to group with same-faction people even if not in a guild, and experience campaign play that is considered more legitimate than Infected.

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1 hour ago, DocHollidaze said:

Agreed. In my quote I highlighted points of yours which I thought were especially relevant.

ACE needs to make it much easier to join a guild, and explain why players should do so, since being in a group is very critical for overall enjoyment of Crowfall and in general for just successful gameplay in the Dregs campaigns.

If any changes in that regard are delayed, then ACE should had legit Faction-based campaigns ASAP. In players have the opportunity to group with same-faction people even if not in a guild, and experience campaign play that is considered more legitimate than Infected.

This issue has been brought up over and over, ignored over and over. What makes you think it will change now? 

Hey! look over there ---> Hunger Dome

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17 hours ago, mystafyi said:

This issue has been brought up over and over, ignored over and over. What makes you think it will change now? 

 

Nothing actually. But for some strange reason I'm still trying to make positive contributions in feedback to the game.

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14 minutes ago, DocHollidaze said:

 

Nothing actually. But for some strange reason I'm still trying to make positive contributions in feedback to the game.

On a good note, there are some games around the corner and its getting alot easier for indie dev teams to make games, ala valheim. I was looking at unity and atavism this past weekend and one could make a basic mmo with basically free assets in a weekend without typing any code. Adding basic guild functions will be one of my tasks for this next weekend before trial runs out. Just wanted to see how dang easy it was to do things that Artcraft is incapable of.

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2 hours ago, mystafyi said:

On a good note, there are some games around the corner and its getting alot easier for indie dev teams to make games, ala valheim. I was looking at unity and atavism this past weekend and one could make a basic mmo with basically free assets in a weekend without typing any code. Adding basic guild functions will be one of my tasks for this next weekend before trial runs out. Just wanted to see how dang easy it was to do things that Artcraft is incapable of.

You say that ACE is 'incapable' of adding basic guild functions in-game. ACE says they will do it later. It's in their road map.

Now, most of us would agree that it should be in the game already, and for SURE prior to launch, but that not the same as saying it's missing because ACE is incapable. Their priorties are different from what most players want.

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3 hours ago, MacDeath said:

You say that ACE is 'incapable' of adding basic guild functions in-game. ACE says they will do it later. It's in their road map.

Now, most of us would agree that it should be in the game already, and for SURE prior to launch, but that not the same as saying it's missing because ACE is incapable. Their priorties are different from what most players want.

 

I think the operative definition is: "capable of doing it within the timeframe of launch".

Running a developer team, I know that anything is possible with unlimited time and budget.

I'm sure ACE is capable, I'm skeptical they are incapable of doing it within time for launch. I'm baffled that they don't see it as a priority to make it happen.

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On 4/12/2021 at 10:07 AM, tallblokeuk said:

Regarding not finding any action... this is a problem.  Based on current server pop the worlds are just too big... BUT, can you imagine the carnage in Skypoint with just 200 people?  I'm worried about scaling too big will be dull, too small and harvesting becomes a major issue.

It's both too SMALL and too BIG at the same time. Talk about a challenging problem.

It's too BIG, because it "feels" empty when you are out and all alone. 

It's too SMALL, because even when it feels empty, the sound of your movements and harvesting seems to carry to 1/4th of the island you are on.  Add to that the fact you can run an entire zone in just a couple of minutes, and finding action is pretty easy. Top that off with logging, where anyone watching can see the super tall trees fall over at a long distance, and it's pretty much impossible to not become a target for hungry and bored wolves who happen to be prowling.  

So really, all it takes for action to happen is one harvester and one hunter in an island, and your going to get into a fight within 15 minutes if the hunter is at all capable. 

Small sample.  Last night I logged in at 1AM CMT.  (Couldn't sleep).  I figured I would get some light tree harvesting in for a couple of hours.  Hit NA to try that. 

First zone. Jumped in 10 minutes. Smart guy, he waited till I was certain to be out of stamina (the tree just lost it's top), and CC locked me, not much of a fight.  Ok, switch zones and head to a back corner and see if I can do it unmolested there. Nope.  within 15 minutes, jumped again.  Sigh. Ok lets try EU. It's even later/earlier there. 

First zone, got jumped 3x within 20 minutes.  Those were good fights, because I saw them coming. Only unhappy with my personal performance on those.

Guess even in the wee hours of the morning I was able to "find action".  Problem is, the people who have the easiest time finding action, are exactly the people who are not actually looking for action, the harvesters. 

Carnage is fine, but for a game that requires lots of effort and time to progress in terms of harvesting and crafting, constantly dodging getting jumped at zero stamina when your trying to do that, is just another reason to pack up, and move into infected until you have all the runes you need without interruption.  The only reason Dregs even begins to work for me for harvesting, is I have a gold/gold rune crafter, and a gold/blue harvester. I hit the world with only gear to lose, and bank as often as possible.

Prior to gold/green harvester, there really is no point at all to be in dregs to advance, and IF the answer was to make it impossible to advance without dregs, well lets just say the game would not be any fuller, it would just mean less people in infected, because retention of sheep for wolfs is already pretty low. 

It's not hard to guess why it's not easy to find action.  It's because the gatherers know the juice isn't worth the squeeze, and without them the wolves get bored and log out before they can find each other. 

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10 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

It's both too SMALL and too BIG at the same time. Talk about a challenging problem.

It's too BIG, because it "feels" empty when you are out and all alone. 

It's too SMALL, because even when it feels empty, the sound of your movements and harvesting seems to carry to 1/4th of the island you are on.  Add to that the fact you can run an entire zone in just a couple of minutes, and finding action is pretty easy. Top that off with logging, where anyone watching can see the super tall trees fall over at a long distance, and it's pretty much impossible to not become a target for hungry and bored wolves who happen to be prowling.  

So really, all it takes for action to happen is one harvester and one hunter in an island, and your going to get into a fight within 15 minutes if the hunter is at all capable. 

Small sample.  Last night I logged in at 1AM CMT.  (Couldn't sleep).  I figured I would get some light tree harvesting in for a couple of hours.  Hit NA to try that. 

First zone. Jumped in 10 minutes. Smart guy, he waited till I was certain to be out of stamina (the tree just lost it's top), and CC locked me, not much of a fight.  Ok, switch zones and head to a back corner and see if I can do it unmolested there. Nope.  within 15 minutes, jumped again.  Sigh. Ok lets try EU. It's even later/earlier there. 

First zone, got jumped 3x within 20 minutes.  Those were good fights, because I saw them coming. Only unhappy with my personal performance on those.

Guess even in the wee hours of the morning I was able to "find action".  Problem is, the people who have the easiest time finding action, are exactly the people who are not actually looking for action, the harvesters. 

Carnage is fine, but for a game that requires lots of effort and time to progress in terms of harvesting and crafting, constantly dodging getting jumped at zero stamina when your trying to do that, is just another reason to pack up, and move into infected until you have all the runes you need without interruption.  The only reason Dregs even begins to work for me for harvesting, is I have a gold/gold rune crafter, and a gold/blue harvester. I hit the world with only gear to lose, and bank as often as possible.

Prior to gold/green harvester, there really is no point at all to be in dregs to advance, and IF the answer was to make it impossible to advance without dregs, well lets just say the game would not be any fuller, it would just mean less people in infected, because retention of sheep for wolfs is already pretty low. 

It's not hard to guess why it's not easy to find action.  It's because the gatherers know the juice isn't worth the squeeze, and without them the wolves get bored and log out before they can find each other. 

That, is an excellent summary of the problem.

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23 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

It's not hard to guess why it's not easy to find action.  It's because the gatherers know the juice isn't worth the squeeze, and without them the wolves get bored and log out before they can find each other. 

Its not like many of us said this exact thing would happen long ago. This is why you plan your work and work your plan. 

Problem is that there are now multiple major issues from all the changes they have made. Fixing one will not fix the others. They either need to go back to redesign or go back to their original design. This ad hoc design/build will end up as predicted. trainwreck.

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On 4/14/2021 at 2:44 PM, DocHollidaze said:

Running a developer team, I know that anything is possible with unlimited time and budget.

I'm sure ACE is capable, I'm skeptical they are incapable of doing it within time for launch. I'm baffled that they don't see it as a priority to make it happen.

If you have successfully run large project to completion, then you know the reason. we both know your not baffled. As to the unlimited time and money, I dont think I have ever seen that scenario, even when I was in the government. Sure those gov't folks keep throwing time and money at problems, but they never solve those, just spend and waste time.

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On 4/14/2021 at 3:04 PM, KrakkenSmacken said:

It's both too SMALL and too BIG at the same time. Talk about a challenging problem.

It's too BIG, because it "feels" empty when you are out and all alone. 

It's too SMALL, because even when it feels empty, the sound of your movements and harvesting seems to carry to 1/4th of the island you are on.  Add to that the fact you can run an entire zone in just a couple of minutes, and finding action is pretty easy. Top that off with logging, where anyone watching can see the super tall trees fall over at a long distance, and it's pretty much impossible to not become a target for hungry and bored wolves who happen to be prowling.  

So really, all it takes for action to happen is one harvester and one hunter in an island, and your going to get into a fight within 15 minutes if the hunter is at all capable. 

Small sample.  Last night I logged in at 1AM CMT.  (Couldn't sleep).  I figured I would get some light tree harvesting in for a couple of hours.  Hit NA to try that. 

First zone. Jumped in 10 minutes. Smart guy, he waited till I was certain to be out of stamina (the tree just lost it's top), and CC locked me, not much of a fight.  Ok, switch zones and head to a back corner and see if I can do it unmolested there. Nope.  within 15 minutes, jumped again.  Sigh. Ok lets try EU. It's even later/earlier there. 

First zone, got jumped 3x within 20 minutes.  Those were good fights, because I saw them coming. Only unhappy with my personal performance on those.

Guess even in the wee hours of the morning I was able to "find action".  Problem is, the people who have the easiest time finding action, are exactly the people who are not actually looking for action, the harvesters. 

Carnage is fine, but for a game that requires lots of effort and time to progress in terms of harvesting and crafting, constantly dodging getting jumped at zero stamina when your trying to do that, is just another reason to pack up, and move into infected until you have all the runes you need without interruption.  The only reason Dregs even begins to work for me for harvesting, is I have a gold/gold rune crafter, and a gold/blue harvester. I hit the world with only gear to lose, and bank as often as possible.

Prior to gold/green harvester, there really is no point at all to be in dregs to advance, and IF the answer was to make it impossible to advance without dregs, well lets just say the game would not be any fuller, it would just mean less people in infected, because retention of sheep for wolfs is already pretty low. 

It's not hard to guess why it's not easy to find action.  It's because the gatherers know the juice isn't worth the squeeze, and without them the wolves get bored and log out before they can find each other. 

This problem was also solved by accident, in Shadowbane. The world needs to be big, but zones need to be small. Right now, zones and gates create this problem: I can sweep a zone in a short period of time (understandable), and also go zone-to-zone-to-zone super fast (problem). The way zones are linked is big problem, we need more empty space between them (aka travel cost and time). It plays out in forts like this too.

In shadowbane probably 75% of the map was just barren wasteland. It worked to separate people by time. Much more local disputes and regional kingdoms.

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15 hours ago, mystafyi said:

If you have successfully run large project to completion, then you know the reason. we both know your not baffled. As to the unlimited time and money, I dont think I have ever seen that scenario, even when I was in the government. Sure those gov't folks keep throwing time and money at problems, but they never solve those, just spend and waste time.

 

I have never seen unlimited time and money either, it is a rhetorical point. It is technically feasible to do any of the things here, they have to just prioritize it. For some reason they are not, I don't understand why they don't see it.

They were able to make other large and fundamental changes based on player feedback, behavior. 

There are hooks in the game to recognize guild affiliation and to recognize guild officer levels. Why they don't prioritize adding a /inviteguild command that calls some methods for the guild system just seems crazy to me.

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On 4/14/2021 at 4:04 PM, KrakkenSmacken said:

It's both too SMALL and too BIG at the same time. Talk about a challenging problem.

It's too BIG, because it "feels" empty when you are out and all alone. 

It's too SMALL, because even when it feels empty, the sound of your movements and harvesting seems to carry to 1/4th of the island you are on.  Add to that the fact you can run an entire zone in just a couple of minutes, and finding action is pretty easy. Top that off with logging, where anyone watching can see the super tall trees fall over at a long distance, and it's pretty much impossible to not become a target for hungry and bored wolves who happen to be prowling.  

So really, all it takes for action to happen is one harvester and one hunter in an island, and your going to get into a fight within 15 minutes if the hunter is at all capable. 

Small sample.  Last night I logged in at 1AM CMT.  (Couldn't sleep).  I figured I would get some light tree harvesting in for a couple of hours.  Hit NA to try that. 

First zone. Jumped in 10 minutes. Smart guy, he waited till I was certain to be out of stamina (the tree just lost it's top), and CC locked me, not much of a fight.  Ok, switch zones and head to a back corner and see if I can do it unmolested there. Nope.  within 15 minutes, jumped again.  Sigh. Ok lets try EU. It's even later/earlier there. 

First zone, got jumped 3x within 20 minutes.  Those were good fights, because I saw them coming. Only unhappy with my personal performance on those.

Guess even in the wee hours of the morning I was able to "find action".  Problem is, the people who have the easiest time finding action, are exactly the people who are not actually looking for action, the harvesters. 

Carnage is fine, but for a game that requires lots of effort and time to progress in terms of harvesting and crafting, constantly dodging getting jumped at zero stamina when your trying to do that, is just another reason to pack up, and move into infected until you have all the runes you need without interruption.  The only reason Dregs even begins to work for me for harvesting, is I have a gold/gold rune crafter, and a gold/blue harvester. I hit the world with only gear to lose, and bank as often as possible.

Prior to gold/green harvester, there really is no point at all to be in dregs to advance, and IF the answer was to make it impossible to advance without dregs, well lets just say the game would not be any fuller, it would just mean less people in infected, because retention of sheep for wolfs is already pretty low. 

It's not hard to guess why it's not easy to find action.  It's because the gatherers know the juice isn't worth the squeeze, and without them the wolves get bored and log out before they can find each other. 

 

I wish ACE would just copy Albion Online, AO is not perfect, but it has solved many of the challenges of this type of game much more successfully.

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