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To Everyone Complaining The Tournament Is Hurting The Game


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Ya might wanna check the Kickstarter.  Scroll to the $1.6 Million stretch goal.  Then hush.

 

Not only are they legally obligated to do exactly what they are doing, but this can only help the combat development.  So again, hush.

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Not sure what the current policy is but seems like providing 100% what was promised doesn't apply to Kickstarter projects now or ever. Even if it does, believe it is up to the creators to offer refunds. 

If you scroll down re-read everything, they haven't delivered several relatively key items from the core game plan before even looking at stretch goals. Where is VR support, combat pets, and all the other fluff from stretch goals such things matter? ACE going to be offering refunds? 😄

I have no issue with Hunger Dome or any sort of Tournament system as I like such things, but I question if resources are being diverted to those at the cost of the MMO side of things simply for marketing and to get people buying something that already plans to launch with a lot missing and incomplete.

Combat itself has deviated a good deal from the original concept they presented and beyond changing almost everything, I don't see how it can be helped, assuming you have an issue with it at all. Having a Tournament isn't going to magically change it.

At this point using Kickstarter as a reference seem irrelevant since so much has changed, been pushed to the future, been removed, etc. Was a good start but 6 years later and things look different.

No need to stifle discussion one way or another unless it is being overly disruptive (IMO), but you do you. Telling people what to do or say usually works out well.

 


 

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58 minutes ago, Solstar said:

Ya might wanna check the Kickstarter.  Scroll to the $1.6 Million stretch goal.  Then hush.

 

Not only are they legally obligated to do exactly what they are doing, but this can only help the combat development.  So again, hush.

I cannot comment on their legal obligations, I strongly disagree with the claim "this can only help the combat development," and I will not hush about a poorly thought-out idea with rushed implementation. Good input though!

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53 minutes ago, APE said:

I question if resources are being diverted to those at the cost of the MMO

My guess is ACE took money from kickstarter promising to realize an MMORPG inspired by Shadowbane, but also got funding by investors which  liked the idea of some Crowfall Arena targeting e-sport audience (such as sponsors of this tournament).

Therefore I reckon no coins are diverted, but I agree at the moment ACE do not mind development of an RPG.

Catelyn: War will make them old, as it did us. I pity them.
Mathis: Why? Look at them. They're young and strong, full of life and laughter. And lust, aye, more lust than they know what to do with. There will be many a bastard bred this night, I promise you. Why pity?
Catelyn: Because it will not last. Because they are the knights of summer, and winter is coming.

A Clash of Kings, Chapter 22, Catelyn II.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Crowfall Discord Channels: international (english) - italiano

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mr. Bob: I need money for a buiding space machine (moonwalker)

bakers: shut up and take our money!

5 years later...

 

mr. Bob:

2aca6c48c9f9b4ac503ea3960260a1d4.jpg

mr Bob: btw guyz, you can get only if you live in listed countries

 

😃

 

crowfall pvp makkonMyrmidon statement: rangefall

Discord makkon#8550

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9 hours ago, Solstar said:

Ya might wanna check the Kickstarter.  Scroll to the $1.6 Million stretch goal.  Then hush.

Not only are they legally obligated to do exactly what they are doing, but this can only help the combat development.  So again, hush.

I for one want them to release something, anything. Even if it is the same game I played 5 years ago, at least they are moving forward.

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HD may be okay, if implemented in a way that promotes a more cohesive and engaging sandbox MMORPG (I still call it that, because JTodd called it that, until one day it just mysteriously became just an MMO).  I think the big lesson here is that crowdfunding (even early pre-purchasing) an MMORPG is basically gambling.  The odds are with the house (ACE, City State, Soulbound, Cloud Imperium, beHaviour), but maybe, just maybe, players might hit it big.  ACE, at least, will give us a game that is something like the vision they sold.  However, I would argue that "something like" is not really good enough, and I suspect that I am not alone in learning that I do not like gambling. 

Edited by Baomaug

“... [T]he pure light of chivalry... distinguishes the noble from the base, the gentle knight from the churl and the savage;... rates our life far, far beneath the pitch of our honour, raises us victorious over pain, toil, and suffering, and teaches us to fear no evil but disgrace.” --Walter Scott

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On 4/13/2021 at 11:49 PM, RikForFun said:

My guess is ACE took money from kickstarter promising to realize an MMORPG inspired by Shadowbane, but also got funding by investors which  liked the idea of some Crowfall Arena targeting e-sport audience (such as sponsors of this tournament).

Therefore I reckon no coins are diverted, but I agree at the moment ACE do not mind development of an RPG.

I meant "resources" as in dev time. With a relatively small team, any work being done on Hunger Dome specifically or their Artisan Engine (if that is still a thing) is time not working on the MMO. Things such as in-game assets, UI, backend systems, and even marketing. Looks like some time has been spend on such things while the MMO could of used that attention. Doesn't matter to me where the money is coming from but if the team is focused or split across multiple projects, how will any of them receive the attention they deserve? Might overall be one project/product with shared everything, but the long list of post launch goals existing while Hunger Dome is the focus isn't great for the MMO IMO.

 


 

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6 hours ago, APE said:

Doesn't matter to me where the money is coming from but if the team is focused or split across multiple projects, how will any of them receive the attention they deserve? Might overall be one project/product with shared everything, but the long list of post launch goals existing while Hunger Dome is the focus isn't great for the MMO IMO.

Unless HD is going to be a main part or the whole of the game. This has been in the works for a fair bit, they started talking about this what? 2 months ago and we are starting the twitch tournaments in 3 weeks. Seeing the pace of development over the past 5 years, I would say this is all hands on deck. 

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16 hours ago, APE said:

Might overall be one project/product with shared everything, but the long list of post launch goals existing while Hunger Dome is the focus isn't great for the MMO IMO.

I suppose we agree.
I'm guessing ACE included HungerDome Arena in Crowfall vision long before this year, then moving MMO features to "long term" is a shift on the expected timeline rather then a diversion.
And I can also understand a lack of development resource to realize shortly an appealing MMORPG, after the disastrous reception of beta, while they expect offering a good Arena/MOBA with all hands on deck.

Edited by RikForFun

Catelyn: War will make them old, as it did us. I pity them.
Mathis: Why? Look at them. They're young and strong, full of life and laughter. And lust, aye, more lust than they know what to do with. There will be many a bastard bred this night, I promise you. Why pity?
Catelyn: Because it will not last. Because they are the knights of summer, and winter is coming.

A Clash of Kings, Chapter 22, Catelyn II.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Crowfall Discord Channels: international (english) - italiano

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On 4/14/2021 at 6:53 AM, Solstar said:

Ya might wanna check the Kickstarter.  Scroll to the $1.6 Million stretch goal.  Then hush.

 

Not only are they legally obligated to do exactly what they are doing, but this can only help the combat development.  So again, hush.

Yeah? Well... that's like just your opinion, man. 

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On 4/14/2021 at 8:49 AM, RikForFun said:

My guess is ACE took money from kickstarter promising to realize an MMORPG inspired by Shadowbane, but also got funding by investors which  liked the idea of some Crowfall Arena targeting e-sport audience (such as sponsors of this tournament).

Therefore I reckon no coins are diverted, but I agree at the moment ACE do not mind development of an RPG.

It's not about diverting funds. It's about diverting dev time. They used to focus on getting the MMO ready, now they focus on getting the MOBA ready. Prolly need to do both, but do they have the staff to do both at the same time? Doesn't seem like it.

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23 hours ago, RikForFun said:

I suppose we agree.
I'm guessing ACE included HungerDome Arena in Crowfall vision long before this year, then moving MMO features to "long term" is a shift on the expected timeline rather then a diversion.
And I can also understand a lack of development resource to realize shortly an appealing MMORPG, after the disastrous reception of beta, while they expect offering a good Arena/MOBA with all hands on deck.

"Good" in comparison to what? Someone that wants to play a polished MOBA, Battle Royale, or instanced MMO PVP have plenty of options and likely many that will try Hunger Dome will have those experiences to compare to. HD is a newish take on the format, but simply being new will have to do a lot of heavy lifting considering all the things it will lack in comparison to other products.

Polish, performance, leaderboards, good match making, cosmetics/rewards, in-game social tools, combat with a high skill ceiling, balanced options, no power coming from spending time/money in another game mode, no team stacking, in-game communication tools like VOIP or quick messaging, sure there is more.

IMO they are going to end up with two products under one title with neither receiving the attention they deserve.

I wonder if it would of been wiser to do it in reverse and build out the original hunger dome, survival/BR elements, kept a smaller race/class pool with archetypes, stuck with slower more mechanic/strategy based combat that used aim and physics more, focused on a clean UI with good guild/social tools, and then expanded on that over time.

Could of still had passive training in some form, EK, generated maps and all that. Introducing NPE, world bands, campaign types and the MMO side as they became what they should be. Seems like it will be a LONG time before either version is in a state that will make the overall gamer population take notice more then a moment.

Going after fans besides those that backed the MMO seems to have gotten away from the "we are a niche and don't need to please everyone" stance.

 


 

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55 minutes ago, APE said:

I wonder if it would of been wiser to do it in reverse and build out the original hunger dome, survival/BR elements, kept a smaller race/class pool with archetypes, stuck with slower more mechanic/strategy based combat that used aim and physics more, focused on a clean UI with good guild/social tools, and then expanded on that over time.

 

This is where we started.  What happened?  Well, I know people complained incessantly about the combat, which originally was supposed to be inspired by Tera and Wildstar.  I remember some of those loudest voices being those who seemed really keen on arena style/MOBA-esque gameplay/eSports too (a very vocal minority on the forums for some time).  Perhaps someone should tell Vikingnail (I think that was his name) that ACE made the game he wanted after all?  We had archetypes (which no one was complaining about), but then we got the vessel system (which no one asked for). Physics seemed like it was going to be a big thing, with collision and even friendly-fire (for zerg reduction).  There is some kind of physics in the game, I am sure, but is it anything like what the early vision was?  Voxels were a thing, too.  I have to agree: CF would have been better off if ACE just stuck to what they had advertised in the first place (which a few people kept encouraging them to do, but obviously they were not listened to).  

EDIT:  I have also noticed something else--ACE devs used to routinely join in these discussions the forums, especially to address criticisms and some suggestions.  Maybe that is still the case, but they do seem strangely absent since I started perusing the boards recently.   I know when I posted something expressing my disappointment on the CU message boards, Mark Jacobs replied and locked the thread immediately.  Of course, Mark Jacobs is probably the sole monitor on the CU forums now.  

Edited by Baomaug

“... [T]he pure light of chivalry... distinguishes the noble from the base, the gentle knight from the churl and the savage;... rates our life far, far beneath the pitch of our honour, raises us victorious over pain, toil, and suffering, and teaches us to fear no evil but disgrace.” --Walter Scott

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I don't play MOBA / BR type games so I can't judge if HD will be a valid competitor in that genre, but, aren't most of the well established / polished games Free to play? It's hard for me to imagine folks will pay ~ $50 to play HD.  Now, if somehow HD was integrated into the MMO version of Crowfall, then it could be seen as a fun thing to do when you don't have time for a campaign. Of course, then the MMO game would need to have appeal compared to it's competition.

IMO, Crowfall, the MMO, is lacking a lot of features to compel many people to want to pay for it. Indeed, ACE's CF road map show that they don't expect the game to be nearly  ready anytime soon.

The diversion of staff, at this time, to focus on HD INSTEAD of the MMO side, leads me to believe that ACE has plans to make ALL of Crowfall F2P soon and monetize the game in their cash shop. HD players may well be willing to pay for competitive vessels and gear. 

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3 hours ago, MacDeath said:

HD players may well be willing to pay for competitive vessels and gear. 

HD players are no different then other players, they will pay for the power of greyskull.

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On 4/13/2021 at 10:53 PM, Solstar said:

Ya might wanna check the Kickstarter.  Scroll to the $1.6 Million stretch goal.  Then hush.

 

Not only are they legally obligated to do exactly what they are doing, but this can only help the combat development.  So again, hush.

 

I'm in favor of HungerDome, but the kickstarter pitch also said no grinding. So, ... um yeah

 

ACE has deviated on foundational things already.

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7 hours ago, Baomaug said:

This is where we started.  What happened?  Well, I know people complained incessantly about the combat, which originally was supposed to be inspired by Tera and Wildstar.  I remember some of those loudest voices being those who seemed really keen on arena style/MOBA-esque gameplay/eSports too (a very vocal minority on the forums for some time).  Perhaps someone should tell Vikingnail (I think that was his name) that ACE made the game he wanted after all?  We had archetypes (which no one was complaining about), but then we got the vessel system (which no one asked for). Physics seemed like it was going to be a big thing, with collision and even friendly-fire (for zerg reduction).  There is some kind of physics in the game, I am sure, but is it anything like what the early vision was?  Voxels were a thing, too.  I have to agree: CF would have been better off if ACE just stuck to what they had advertised in the first place (which a few people kept encouraging them to do, but obviously they were not listened to).  

EDIT:  I have also noticed something else--ACE devs used to routinely join in these discussions the forums, especially to address criticisms and some suggestions.  Maybe that is still the case, but they do seem strangely absent since I started perusing the boards recently.   I know when I posted something expressing my disappointment on the CU message boards, Mark Jacobs replied and locked the thread immediately.  Of course, Mark Jacobs is probably the sole monitor on the CU forums now.  

I liked the original combat model, it was just the first draft and needed some work. Got a little criticism and they went in a different direction, which was be more like other MMOs. IMO several tab games require or allow more mechanical skill, rotation, strategy, using terrain, etc to perform compared to this one which rode in on the "action combat" hype and misleads because it has a reticle.

MOBA combat is typically more like what they originally planned I guess. Skill shots, strategy, less is more, aim, knowing what the enemy is doing, even left click spam has to be thought out. It can be hectic but overall it is usually less spammy then what Crowfall is today so I don't believe they actually went in that direction combat wise.

Vikingnail was a fan of WoW arenas I believe and wanted CF to have a high skill cap. That didn't happen. I was one of those early on that suggested stand a lone campaigns with independent passive training and things like the hunger dome. While they've gone back to that 6 years later, it is superficially what I would of liked to have seen since so much has been changed, cut, or missing from the original plan.

ACE hasn't been active on the boards for years from what I can tell. Took a long time to get a dev tracker so can see what is communicated. Doing a reddit AMA or something like that would of been great once in a while. I don't expect nonstop or excessive communicating like Jacobs does, but it does seem like talking to a wall most of the time. Even if they say they read everything, doesn't do much if there is little to no response. Q&A they answer a few cherry picked questions that usually don't touch on hot topics or what the community seems to be talking about. Then they throw out a monthly freebie or whatever and the hype train starts up again.

 


 

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On 4/16/2021 at 10:46 AM, RikForFun said:

they expect offering a good Arena/MOBA with all hands on deck

 

On 4/17/2021 at 10:28 AM, APE said:

"Good" in comparison to what?

Honestly, I never played or had interest in MOBA, therefore I've no personal expectation about what ACE is trying to do on May.

However I understand your point and  I can describe my feeling with a matching quote from the saga which inspired Crowfall: 

"I pray that you are wrong." And fear that you are right. - A Dance with Dragons, Chapter 71, The Queen's Hand 

Catelyn: War will make them old, as it did us. I pity them.
Mathis: Why? Look at them. They're young and strong, full of life and laughter. And lust, aye, more lust than they know what to do with. There will be many a bastard bred this night, I promise you. Why pity?
Catelyn: Because it will not last. Because they are the knights of summer, and winter is coming.

A Clash of Kings, Chapter 22, Catelyn II.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Crowfall Discord Channels: international (english) - italiano

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On 4/20/2021 at 12:58 AM, RikForFun said:

"I pray that you are wrong." And fear that you are right. - A Dance with Dragons, Chapter 71, The Queen's Hand 

Pretty much.

I hope things turn out okay even if I don't end up playing this game, but no matter how hard I squint things don't get any better looking.

 


 

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