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6.510.0 Live Feedback for 4/16/2021


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1 hour ago, Ralathar44 said:

TBH if someone has to go out of your game to a crafting guide to do the core loop of your crafting job with a reasonable level of certainty than your UX design has failed.  Supplemental information to min/max?  Sure, guides and wikis all day.  But the actual bare bones core loop design?  With good design that should be achievable by the majority of your playerbase in game without undue confusion.

Materials, components, experimentation, etc are core loops of the crafting system and explanations of how to use them should be in game in a user friendly format or a ton of people that would otherwise enjoy the systems will instead bounce off.

I agree with you that such info SHOULD be in game and easy for new players to find. But, ACE has never done that with most aspects of Crowfall, so players stepped in. Now, however, with things changing so fast, few players make the effort to keep the guides up to date.

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Hello,  Thank you for the opportunity to play CrowFall and provide some feedback about my experience. These opinions below are my own, and may not align with others thoughts and opinions, all I c

The map loads too slow.

Howdy! So, even though I ain't played this version just yet, I'd like to leave some feedback on something else I encountered previously. Enjoying your EK is.... difficult when you're constantly

5 minutes ago, MacDeath said:

I agree with you that such info SHOULD be in game and easy for new players to find. But, ACE has never done that with most aspects of Crowfall, so players stepped in. Now, however, with things changing so fast, few players make the effort to keep the guides up to date.

If he thinks thats bad, wait till the poor fellow runs into crowfalls guild UI. 

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34 minutes ago, Kekzmann said:

So i started about 1-2 weeks ago with a friend of mine and i will just give a rundown of what we think about this patch and the game in general. We both played MMORPGs and lots of other games for over 15+ years and im a game developer myself(just to give some info on who we are).

Crafting: For my first character i went Stoneborn Weapon Smith/Miner.
Seemed like the obvious choice to me. But i couldnt craft poorly made dergs without a leatherworker. Also it took me ages to farm the mats for my first weapon + 100 gold for what ever reason to buy the mold just to get the worst weapon mankind ever witnessed.

So the frustrating part here is the extremely slow progress in Farming and Craftig just for a quite poorly made dergsty outcome. Also i cant even make any money with Farming/Craftig in the early stages. Even tho i farm the ores myself i dont get any + Value over the material cost wich is 2g per ore (Since that adds up a lot if you need a custardton of it for a single weapon).

The frustration became even greater when i learned that to effectifly Harvest stuff there are aditional Harvesting Discs that noone tells you about and you have to go through hell of a process to even be able to farm them in dregs and dregs only. (Needing a epic harvester and a blue runecrafter BELT).

A friend had the same thing. Went jewlcrafter. Neither of us knew it was a late-game only job. Tried to craft a ring wich includes so god damn many steps and things just to end with a 0,234ish str ring. Its just super frustrating to go through over 10mins crafting for one item when the item in the end doesnt even give you anything.

Got even more frustrating when we found out how god damn rare thoose gems were and that you can only obtain them from motherloads. And even there with only a 4% chance (green belt).

Another added frustration in the insane ammount of gold needed to upgrade Belts/Discs. Sure you can farm gold quite easy in dregs, but usually as a new player that tries to harvest i stay away from the place where more seasoned PvP guys can just kill and loot me. Also it too ages to even get to a point where i was even able to mine stuff in dregs, since everything below advanced tools is straight up not usable there. The only way cratigs gets profitable is when you maxxed it out and are able to produce stuff that is a tad better then what is dropped by mobs and sell that to players. You dont make any profit in the low tiers and are still required to pump loads of gold into it.

Also the non existing difference when using higher lv materials. I dont even use green or blue ore for harvesting tools because the stats dont even change a single bit, same for weapons (maybe that changes once im higher in smithing but its just frustrating)

TLDR.: The ammount of things needed just to create basically garbage items is absolutely insane. Also add a hint somewhere that the blue crafting belt is absolutely crucial to make anything decent.

Next point gathering: Normal mining is allright but running out of stamina all the time and the need for 2 ppl for motherloads is just absolute poorly made dergs. It slows you down and isnt any fun whatsoever. Farming is smth that most ppl usually do when they dont wanna think much or listen to some music next to. Not smth u have to create a raid-group for.

Also the rare drops like gems and minerals should also drop of off small nodes not only motherloads(maybe give motherloads like 2x the chance of small ones) because especially minerals are a core ingredient to even progress in this game.

Dont get me wrong i have nothign against grinding(Long time Runescape player after all) But its just not rewarding at all.
What i love about gathering is the weakpoint system tho. Makes it more interactive and fun.

Next up cooking: way too overcomplicated. Having to go through 6 steps just to create a single sandwich with 3% less frost dmg is not any fun at all. Not to mention you have to buy lots of things from vendors to even craft that. Make it more simple and make change items like the cooking to from a consumeable to a permanent item.

Next up combat: The combat system is by far the best thing about the game. But respeccing without VIP is crucial for that. Also its hard to find fair fights. A lv 34 will just allways bash ur skull just simply bc of the vessel bonus stats when hes even half decent at playing. Also invisibility is so custard annoying. At least give us a minimum detection range even without perception. Its jsut way too easy for Invis classes to start fights and just $@*!&# out once they realise they cant beat you even tho they are 2 Lvs above you.

I love everything about the skilltree. Lots of choice that you have the feeling that actually matters since depending on how you skill you character will play completely different. Great job on that. Lots of fun to experiment (Sad i HAD TO buy Vip for that tho, since i thinks its  a core part of the game).

The only thing i rly absolutely hate about the combat is the insane ammount of different stats(same for craftig). Sure this allwos for unique builds but i makes balancing a nightmare and scares off everyone who isnt hardcore dedicated to find out wich combination works best for their playstyle. A bit more staight foreward would be great.
A good example for this are skills that give you fire immunity and only that. Nice so i omage counter 1 class when i encounter it but the thing is 100% useless against everything else in the game. So either broken overpowered or a waste of a skillslot.

The chat: Is completely garbage to put it simple. I dont even notice when ppl write smth, the fact that guilde and area chat are 2 seperate windows. Me chat contains drops but also whispers?! Why cant i have a chat that displays me the stuff that ppl arround me say as well as my guild members and whispers without the need of changeing tabs all the time.

Trading: Having to search and join EKs to trade just takes way too long and is unfun. Make a marketplace world or smth where everyone can put up merchants.

High end content: Way to guild oriented and time limited. There is basically no reason to play when dregs is not up. Also why is there no high end faction vs faction content? Like dregs but with factions so ppl without a guild can have fun too.
not everyone likes huge guilds and a lot of ppl prefer to just play in smaller groups. Problem here: as small group you cant rly participate in any end game content. Also progressing without a big guild is hell.

Other overall thoughts: The game is way to focused on pushig ppl into a single role like gatherer/crafter/fighter. Some ppl like me just like to do all of it since its all fun. Big guilds mean progress. Without you dont have a chance to play the late game at all. Forcing gatherers to farm poorly made dergsloads of gold/ressources in a pvp zone feels wrong. Gatehrers are usually the most pve type players out there. PvP shouldnt be about killing gatherers, but to fight other PvP players for outposts/forts/and so on. Too little information on anything. I found myself with so many questions on what to do and how to progress to archive anything and its quite frustrating.
Progress changes extremely fast. What i mean by that is that getting to 30 takes no time at all, nice and fast gamespeed but suddenly everything slows down A LOT. Progress after 30 becomes so extremely slow. And having no information on how to even progress doesnt make it any better. My friend and i spend arround at least 8h each day in the game but couldnt make and noticable progress after 30 besides grinding gold and upgrading harvesting discs.


THE LOG OUT TIMER. holy poorly made dergs that thing annoys me to the max. why do i have to wait 20 secs each time i wanna change to a different character when all the chars stand in the SAFE ZONE temple. becomes especially annoying considering you need som many different materials when crafting.
I think most ppl dont even get to the point where joining a guild becomes important, because there are so many walls to climb over just to get to the point (and im not talking about leveling).
Also no solo players alowed since there is no faction vs faction endgame.

So my thought would be even tho it might hurt some more hardcore players: SIMPLIFY THINGS. Its a pvp game, it cant live with only a few hadcore player that are able to spend lots of hours every single day. And allow ppl to play the game without guilds. Maybe do seperate dregs for factions. Also have at least one dregs campain open at all time so there is content to play.

Hope that feedback helps to get a view on how new players see things. And sorry for any spelling mistakes

Thanks for taking the time to write up such a lengthy post from the eyes of a new player. I would agree that this game is brutal for new players who want to try all aspects of the game in solo or small group play.

I was in an organized guild before ever logging into to CF for the first time and I had to ask my guild mates for a LOT of advice on how to do things. My best advice is to join a guild. However, I do understand that many people want to wait to do that til AFTER they decide if this game is for them. It's been my experience that very few non-guilded players play / test for more than a few days before they fade away.

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9 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

If he thinks thats bad, wait till the poor fellow runs into crowfalls guild UI. 

The game I QA for work on is actually way worse I promise you :D. (staying mum on the title, keeps life alot simpler :P).  But yeah I'm definitely rapidly re-aligning my expectations.  General mechanics are in good states for the most part, world is serviceable, most pieces are there, but UX definitely is lagging behind. 

Not even touching timers on sieges and the infected world today.  That'll be a post for another day and I want more time with things yet on that.  But so far the lack of small scale objectives and the lack of available large scale objectives definitely seems to be preventing the "rising tide" of PVP players from generating and seems to be hurting retention once the extremely limited large scale options are exhausted.  Guild Wars 2 WvW isn't perfect, but their maps and systems are pretty impeccable at sustaining the momentum of PVP.  From solo to large scale zerg the WvW maps almost always have relevant things for you to do.

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7 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

If he thinks thats bad, wait till the poor fellow runs into crowfalls guild UI. 

ACE has left out so many things that most MMOs included 20 years ago. I fear the game is not going to have much player retention a few weeks post launch without some more emphasis on QoL features. 

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17 minutes ago, MacDeath said:

ACE has left out so many things that most MMOs included 20 years ago. I fear the game is not going to have much player retention a few weeks post launch without some more emphasis on QoL features. 

Its almost like they are living in a bubble and unaware the problems outside. Blissfully unaware of the world around them as their beards grow to the ground. 😈

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26 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

The game I QA for work on is actually way worse I promise you :D. (staying mum on the title, keeps life alot simpler :P).  But yeah I'm definitely rapidly re-aligning my expectations.  

Do you have a desk, cubicle or a tiny closet in the basement? I feel for ya, QA in games has fallen to the bottom of the pile since you dont generate revenue, only take it.

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3 hours ago, Soulreaver said:

I'm just going to repeat my rant : Minor and Major disciplines.  Make them drop by "Domain" and let us choose which OF that Domain it is when we craft it.

Seconded: there's too many layers of RNG to getting the right discs... First find a thrall: it then has to be either Major or Minor, then it has to be the right domain, then it has to actually drop the disc you're looking for. That's 3 RNG rolls in a row (Major/Minor, Domain, Specific Disc), and you're not even close to done because you have to repeat that 3-step high roll many more times to both upgrade your own discs and to get discs for other ppl who want the same thing as you.

P.S. Grr Winterblades 🦌

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9 minutes ago, Xarrayne said:

Seconded: there's too many layers of RNG to getting the right discs...

What ever happened to the replacement for passive training system? I thought this RNG process was just a placeholder or an active option. 

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14 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

What ever happened to the replacement for passive training system? I thought this RNG process was just a placeholder or an active option. 

It was announced as a place holder but with no clue as to how long it would be before the place holder gets replaced by a 'real' replacement.

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Although you cannot walk through an enemy's player model normally, when you dodge, you clip right through them.

This makes holding certain choke points quite a bit less interesting and intense.

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Some text in the Champion Class Description in the Character Creation window is wrong, unless it was on purpose, text reads:

Quote

Champions leap into the fray. Their Basic Attacks build Rage, which can be used for devastating combos. Champions can grow in size size and heal themselves, allowing them to thrive in the middle of large combats.

 

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I played the game for the first time today. I'm still excited but also a little bored. In the two hours I had to play today, I don't feel like I made much progress. I got to the sun temple, but I still feel like I'm in the tutorial. Combat is just kind of a click-fest. I feel like I'm going to wear out my mouse if I get into this game. I would rather it be more quick and deadly.

Is there some kind of keyboard mapping in-game showing me what buttons to press to do what thing? After the guard in the tutorial told me how to equip bandages, I couldn't figure out how to do it again (nor did I try particularly hard, seeing as the combat I experienced has been fairly straightforward).

It stresses me out massively that I am not able to re-spec my character. My analysis paralysis and fear of making the wrong choice leaves me making no choice.

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21 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

Not even touching timers on sieges and the infected world today.  That'll be a post for another day and I want more time with things yet on that.  But so far the lack of small scale objectives and the lack of available large scale objectives definitely seems to be preventing the "rising tide" of PVP players from generating and seems to be hurting retention once the extremely limited large scale options are exhausted.  Guild Wars 2 WvW isn't perfect, but their maps and systems are pretty impeccable at sustaining the momentum of PVP.  From solo to large scale zerg the WvW maps almost always have relevant things for you to do.

Some changes coming to Infected Skypoint map in 6.52 (currently on TEST server) so I will be interested to hear feedback from newer players when the patch moves to LIVE. It's really important for retention to get this part of the early game right, but it's harder for veteran testers to give feedback from that perspective.

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49 minutes ago, miraluna said:

Some changes coming to Infected Skypoint map in 6.52 (currently on TEST server) so I will be interested to hear feedback from newer players when the patch moves to LIVE. It's really important for retention to get this part of the early game right, but it's harder for veteran testers to give feedback from that perspective.

Good to hear.  I'm a highly experienced MMORPG and PVP player from back in the Dark Age of Camelot days.  (Bone Army Bone Dancer waaayyy back in SI days where not playing Suppression spec was heresy :D)  Played others of similar ilk like Warhammer Online, Guild Wars 2, and ESO.  I try not to hold any new game to the blueprint of the old, I'm a firm believer in many ways to do things right, but I do try and pay attention to what each appears to excel at.  I also QA a game for a living myself :).

I can't promise I'll be right, but I'll give you honest feedback from that perspective.  I can't give much PVP centric feedback currently because to be blunt there is basically zero PVP happening in the leveling tiers of infected and I've been leveling up crafters to play with crafting haha.  Until your max level (which doesn't take long, but is long enough to be somewhat disconcerting when you're looking to PVP and seeing no opportunities, instead being forced to grind mobs. (which I honestly don't mind, but it IS a bit offputting and PVP only folks prolly hate the heckies out of it).

Spitballing off of what I actually know right now:  Leveling zones could almost certainly stand to be consolidated from 9 zones to 3.  I know that prolly takes more backend work than would be expected and score reworks and such but splitting the levelers 9 ways is alot.  I can't think of any modern live RVR style game that splits it's leveling playerbase near that hard.  Even old School Dark Age of Camelot definitely did not maintain pop in that many zones.  Outside of Thidranki, Molvik, and Cathal Valley the rest were very sparsely populated even with live population numbers.  The other 4 battlegrounds only had inconsistent activity during the day and were often ridiculously dead outside of prime hours.   So it's no surprise Crowfall is struggling to maintain any relevant population in the infected leveling zones when it's split 9 ways AND it's beta so you've got a limited user base currently.

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16 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

So it's no surprise Crowfall is struggling to maintain any relevant population in the infected leveling zones when it's split 9 ways AND it's beta so you've got a limited user base currently.

Perhaps it has more to do with the shallow leveling system that can be completed in hours or bypassed in minutes? Most folks use infected to farm mats for export. Combine that with lack of much else to do and its easy to see why little interaction there.  If it wasnt for them adding leveling then later tying it to the infected campaign, it would be abandoned like faction campaigns of before. 

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31 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

Perhaps it has more to do with the shallow leveling system that can be completed in hours or bypassed in minutes? Most folks use infected to farm mats for export. Combine that with lack of much else to do and its easy to see why little interaction there.  If it wasnt for them adding leveling then later tying it to the infected campaign, it would be abandoned like faction campaigns of before. 

Aye, the quick exp leveling and the splitting of zones each exacerbate the issue, making the impact of the other even worse.  DAOC maintained population in it's battlegrounds due to the ability to use an xp off command and people prefering those level ranges and zones for fighting.  And even then only had population for 3.

Still, I'm trying to work within the bounds of the current system rather than completely redesigning the wheel.  Game has to release eventually, the runway is not unlimited.  Incentives to make the content worthwhile is it's own separate battle.  A rather large disconnect between old school PVP crowd and new school is that old school primarily PVP'd just for the sake of PVP.  New School has a much larger focus on being infinitely rewarded...which ends up being pretty incompatible with well designed PVP in the long run as power creep continues.  New school tends to be very vocal early in a games' life cycle and development and then once they consume all content with great speed they tend to move on quite quickly.

I'm a bit more old school myself.  I just want good zones/areas to fight in a variety of ways :).  The rewards from that are not even secondary to me, they are tertiary.  If infected is less fun to fight in inherently, then perhaps it could learn from the other zones.  BUT if that additional enjoyment primarily comes from way higher rewards (which I've heard rumblings of) then that feels like something that can be balanced out...with care to make sure it's not just catering to people who simply farm their way to the new brick wall and then stop playing because they were only playing for the progression like it was a PVE theme park MMORPG.  It's complicated, but basically so long as you can get to end game viable (not min/maxed...viable)  builds in a reasonable time frame then the PVP itself should be 95% of the reward or all you're doing is putting off the inevitable for a couple months while people farm up lol.  The other stuff should more or less just be window dressing or a garnish if you hope to have a PVP game with any real longevity.  Unless you go hardcore Eastern MMORPG lose your entire life to progress a tiny amount grind, oof.

DAOC showed that pretty well.  Despite having the end level diminishing returns RP ramp a ton of people simply stayed in the battlegrounds with xp off and played for years with zero progression.  Because they PVP itself was just darn fun.

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3 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

New school tends to be very vocal early in a games' life cycle and development and then once they consume all content with great speed they tend to move on quite quickly.

Not sure about new or old school classifications, but there is a large segment of players that jump in and out of games. Its almost like playing flavor of the month builds, but with games. This wasnt such a big deal 10-20 years ago when there wasnt a plethora of games and back then many were B2P and subscription based. Not only that, but early mmo's were defacto online social platforms almost like a virtual facebook community which helped to hold populations steady.

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Getting into the game- my biggest issue with trying out crowfall was deeper understanding of mechanics:
1.Tutorial in form of talks in story just dont work, after so many years 9/10 players is going to skip dialogs, we are just used to do it.
2.After some basic tutorial there is lack of guidance, i would love to see optional in game guides for gathering/crafting which gonna tell how stats in crafting X works, what scales them.
3.Lack of in game wiki where you can find some more informations about game.

I have found all above in yt guides and at community discord but i did that as veteran of genre, someone new to this kind of game could not find it so easly or dont even bother to try, it can potentialy lead to many new players quiting game at the beggining.
Map-that was aspect which bother me most during play, map isn't clear it lack some legend, also even if there is no plan for minimap, there should at least be some option to mark points so you can navigate w/o checking your position all the time.

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19 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

Not sure about new or old school classifications, but there is a large segment of players that jump in and out of games. Its almost like playing flavor of the month builds, but with games. This wasnt such a big deal 10-20 years ago when there wasnt a plethora of games and back then many were B2P and subscription based. Not only that, but early mmo's were defacto online social platforms almost like a virtual facebook community which helped to hold populations steady.

You can't build a long term sustainable playerbase from that demographic though, hence the "only delaying the inevitable".  This isn't a theme park MMORPG or looter shooter or live service game that can regularly release new monetized PVE content to pull that crowd back and also cleverly monetize everything else to the gills so that the money they spend during their short stays pays during their absences.

If you don't establish a loyal consistent long term player based around enjoyment of the PVP itself then after that short term demographic finishes the content ramp then game pop enters death spiral.  That's not saying to completely ignore those folks in design, but they cannot by necessity be the focus for the health of the game.

There are plenty of sustainable PVP only games out there that have survived for years.  There is room for Crowfall to be one of those if it's good enough.  But it can only do that by thinking long term, it's never going to win the hearts and minds of the short term demographic because there are other genres/MMORPG designs far better catered to their interests.

Edited by Ralathar44
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