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I am just going to do a pro/con list. 

Pro

  • Combat: 
    • Really funny and new to me. Really enjoy the chaining with skills, no tab-targetting etc. Takes skills to hit with bow and spells, and not just tab targetting etc. 
    • I enjoy the gathering(not the amount of gather) system and how i need tools for things etc. Reminds me of StarWars Galaxies(favorite crafting game)
      • Not everything is intuitive or explaing (but its a beta, and was the same in SWG, which was part of the experience back then)
  • Fast leveling
    • I took about 5-6 hours to get max, which is nice. 
  • I like the how the game is designed with the more comic book look. 
  • I really enjoy the races/classes
    • I totally clueless to disciplines and also a lot of what the skills describe is "whhhaaaa?", not because its poorly writing, but because i have so little game mechanic understanding.(again, learning experience)
  • Havent done pvp, guild stuff etc, as im just a lonely tester(and it was/is really lonely). - and not really interested, as i expect gear difference will make it a lousy experience and demoralise me to try other things in the game
  • Feels smooth, no lag
  • The kingdom thingy seems like a cool idea - havent tested it
  • A lot of good things i enjoy. 

 

Con

  • Whats the point of crafting?
    • Such a giant crafting system with depth(what lured me to Crowfall), and reminds me of SWG - but whats the point?
      • I got soooo f****** much loot from mobs, which is 2-3x better then what i can craft myself.
      • Again, coming from SWG, everything was made by players, which meant some items took weeks or months to create(and longer for better quality). 
      • 15-20min of play, and my backpack is full of drops + if i gather stuff, it's full within minuts. 
      • Crafting was really a big selling point for me, but if mobs constantly drop equal or similar gear, why spend hours trying to make good stuff? - Terrible shame imo, was so looking forward to game with similar crafting of SWG
      • Hard to figure out where do find things, and i need ALOT of things to create 1 thing, i dont really know what to use for etc. (also, i kinda like this too)
    • For me to be interested in buying/playing CF, crafting needs to be way more worth the time put into it. I'd rather craft/gather 90% of the time and 10% pvp/pve etc - but if the time put in, isnt worth it... Probably something that will divide a community alot this topic. And i am probably also colored from other games, but why have such a deep and amazing crafting system set up, if it is not worth it??? i dont get it - and why not cater to the crafter-players? i am sure im not the only one, or maybe i am
       
  • Where do i sell stuff to other players? Auction House somewhere? 
  • I cant respec(had no idea on what skills really did, since im a newb, and only other way to test, is to lvl the same class again - nope. I thought it was a beta test?
  • I cant "mouse hover" several UI items or buffs and read about them. Like the thing in the bottom right of screen. Shows day/night circle, and then there are four boxes below - wtf are those boxes trying to tell me?
  • I cant use 1 button to swap between ranged/melee tray in ranger? why not? why most it be 2 different keys? (super super annoying)
  • Infoboxes
  • The world map.... redo, redesign or whatever. Its so useless compared to maps in other games.
  • The chat system is... not working? I cant speak to other players? i have several channels, but nothing in them, no response, and so on. 

 

Overall, 

Many many cool and fun things - but for me, crafting needs to be better then drops(not a few %, but better). Killing keep/castles, players, pve and so on, for sub components to craft stuff, and not drop the entire epic items... 

Edited by lordphat42
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6 hours ago, lordphat42 said:
  • Whats the point of crafting?
  • Where do i sell stuff to other players? Auction House somewhere? 

They neglected to include any economy in this game, their fix was to add dropped loot which then nullified early-mid game crafting further reducing the need for any economy. An added benefit was being able to then ignore EK's since they had no purpose anymore. win-win-win.

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  • I cant use 1 button to swap between ranged/melee tray in ranger? why not? why most it be 2 different keys? (super super annoying)

    Still cant beleive they havant been able to do this yet -.- how hard can it be code a toggleable buttong instead of 2 seperate ones :(

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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15 hours ago, mystafyi said:

They neglected to include any economy in this game, their fix was to add dropped loot which then nullified early-mid game crafting further reducing the need for any economy. An added benefit was being able to then ignore EK's since they had no purpose anymore. win-win-win.

Feels bad. It was probably some of the absolute most fun times in SWG for me. Starting up and no one had anything, and everyone had to do different things and sort of work together/help out to create 1 weapon or armor the first few weeks etc. So the whole "new campaign" thingy was super intriguing for me and just general crafting - but if keep the drop rate stuff, it feels kinda dead to me already - Which feels bad, because i was SO looking forward to this game. But alas. 

 

14 hours ago, veeshan said:
  • I cant use 1 button to swap between ranged/melee tray in ranger? why not? why most it be 2 different keys? (super super annoying)

    Still cant beleive they havant been able to do this yet -.- how hard can it be code a toggleable buttong instead of 2 seperate ones :(

Yeah, its probably easier to make a toggle instead of what they did + it is just so so annoying i have to assign and extra key, i constantly forgot what was to switch and died to mobs. Will be extra stressful in pvp

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22 hours ago, lordphat42 said:

I cant use 1 button to swap between ranged/melee tray in ranger? why not? why most it be 2 different keys? (super super annoying)

because you can have up to 3 tray and circling on the 3 with one button is difficult, so instead of having 2 tech ( for 2 and 3 tray ), they just build one.

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On 4/18/2021 at 1:30 PM, lordphat42 said:
  • Where do i sell stuff to other players? Auction House somewhere? 

Supposedly there is vendors in EKs at lobby.. but none really know about it coming in fresh. Also hard to find sold items you need + timely.. or even know whats available at max in game, or whats kinda junk if you dont plan to craft in that area and just sell to npc vendor.

So, we need ingame vendor terminal HUBs to see ALL available items and direct us to those online (player built) EK vendor areas. (SWG)
- This would make new players realize all the things crafters can make, seeing it "all" auction styled -organized in a category list. Even if only from random Online EKs.
A player would also realize there is custom built communities from being directly directed into different EKs. 
-Makes a name for Guilds/EK owners/vendor owners, and opens up some socialization as well.
Players actually would want to own vendors even then, or the playstyle that comes with those craft professions to sell things- puts that sandbox element in.

Also there needs to be different ways to earn $ too, to obtain those player priced items. Like pay out mission terminals. Maybe PVP conflict areas of grabbing a same mission at the time. Payouts then split if grouped. Cause yes, "zerg pvp" should be negated a little somehow with gaining in different ways to max gear.

I agree, looting somewhat powerful looking items off random mobs doesn't feel right. (unless buried at the end of a cave). It should be mostly upgrade components that drop.
I want to feel like i earned my gear by grinding out a cash flow in sandbox with PVP conflict, instead of grinding out same mobs on random drop.

Even if decent weapons/armor still drop as random, a vendor info hub would make us realize early on the better items that are crafted. 
(or even what vessels can give seen from EK vendors.)
We'd also have then a sense of what gear the max players are likely running in, in guild campaigns or toward the end of a campaigns.
Also HUB vendor information "within" a campaign would help determine the highest crafted "campaign season-time" loot avail within a spread out faction of players and help distribute loot across, or see what is scarce with economy of what your faction needs to gain.

Edited by ephen
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18 hours ago, mystafyi said:

They neglected to include any economy in this game, their fix was to add dropped loot which then nullified early-mid game crafting further reducing the need for any economy. An added benefit was being able to then ignore EK's since they had no purpose anymore. win-win-win.

Failed to include ANY economy is rather unfair. 

There have been patches in the past where guilds set up rather successful EK shop villages in the past. There is certainly a lack of what I would call marketing tools to aid in suppliers being able to promote said shop EK's, and clear aids for new players to find said EK's.

The problem was always a chicken/egg competitive environment problem.  When your dropping players into a competitive environment, it's not a good plan to require them to play for dozens of hours, or waiting for passive training to kick in, before becoming competitive it something.  The easiest thing to make people feel like they "have a chance" is minimum viable combat gear. That is what is supposed to drop off NPC's, and in fact it does. 

It is not the best, and it is not the end game gear, but it can FEEL like it is, because it is actually minimum viable.  Unfortunately, in a competitive environment there are two problems that really screw with the crafting models. 

1.) Flat power curves.  The difference between minimum viable, and end game, can't be so dramatic as to make the lower end totally useless against the higher end. 
2.) Crafting progress. Since minimum viable needs to line up with minimum viable to compete with other players, minimum viable is very close to end game. This makes it really really hard to balance 'early' crafting. 

Fortunately, it seems to take about 3 weeks of dedicated work for a player to reach close to parity on with drops on crafted gear, and then exceed those. 

It should also be noted that soon, actually VERY soon, the first version of the biggest missing piece will be in the game. Factory production in the form of making copies of well rolled items, that have the durability advantage and life expectancy of crafted gear. 

 

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2 hours ago, Aedius said:

because you can have up to 3 tray and circling on the 3 with one button is difficult, so instead of having 2 tech ( for 2 and 3 tray ), they just build one.

^^^ This.  There are melee, range and stealth trays. 

Additionally, there is precedent in the one key, one tray in how FPS games handle weapon swaps.  Push the slotted key like '1' and you pull a specific weapon.  Some like to roll through on a mouse wheel,

I personally prefer, especially if laggy, for the single button to ALWAYS leave you in the desired tray, rather than trying to guess what tray it will leave you in if the swap is slow due to lag. 

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On 4/18/2021 at 11:30 AM, lordphat42 said:
  • why not cater to the crafter-players?
     
  • Where do i sell stuff to other players? Auction House somewhere? 

I played SWG, it was one of my favorite MMOs and the best crafting/harvesting/merchant game for me. There is a big difference however - SWG was a PvX sandbox and CF is a team-based, PvP-focused competition. The dropped gear items in CF allow any PvPer to farm up some viable gear in a short amount of time, so PvPers are being catered to in CF (rather than crafters) at least in early game. For end game, guilds are sinking lots of resources and gold required to build up max crafter characters to make the best gear.

CF uses npc vendors (placeable in Eternal Kingdoms and Free City in Campaigns) that you can stock and set prices on similar to SWG.

tiPrpwh.png

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My issue with wartribe gear is people automatically assume rarity = quality.  I believe it needs to exist, just needs to visually look inferior since it is aside from the oddball epic stat stick offhand

Crafted white gear from an end game crafter is better than the blue (rare) gear that's dropped from a mob.  But with the colour scales not being differentiated, new players don't know any better.  I've seen it countless times, they will walk buy a vendor full of crafted white gear, buy the pieces that are the shiny blue colour but have less overall stats, and a quarter of the durability.

 

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21 hours ago, miraluna said:

I played SWG, it was one of my favorite MMOs and the best crafting/harvesting/merchant game for me. There is a big difference however - SWG was a PvX sandbox and CF is a team-based, PvP-focused competition. The dropped gear items in CF allow any PvPer to farm up some viable gear in a short amount of time, so PvPers are being catered to in CF (rather than crafters) at least in early game. For end game, guilds are sinking lots of resources and gold required to build up max crafter characters to make the best gear.

CF uses npc vendors (placeable in Eternal Kingdoms and Free City in Campaigns) that you can stock and set prices on similar to SWG.

With this though and focusing on the NPE side for new players, I'd still like new players to realize where the EK vendors even are, and show what gear is available to them at steep prices.  Forces them to then gain a cash bank by perusing more gameplay (maxing their character). Rather then feeling like they did all content. -gaining a poor "blue" item, and not realizing the stats are fairly poor.
A vendor terminal hub in the Temples would definitely help that transition.

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12 hours ago, mystafyi said:

You are right, it is kind of unfair but its true enough for you to capitalize 'ANY'. 

You are correct. Trying to jump start in any aspect of the player economy with current systems is like trying to run through mud.

That said, in the context of WT gear, fixing the economy would not increase the speed of new players getting into the action with crafted gear. At least not nearly enough to allow people to be in competitive gear with a few hours of work/NPC killing/gold farming to purchase from players.

The economy and EK loop is certainly one of the least fleshed out pieces of the puzzle. Probably because the answer is what I would call "marketing tools" that don't just go full auction house, central point of distribution. While that would be ideal for the customer side of the equation, that model can go disastrously for "small shop" players as the big guilds have been seen to monopolize like Walmart does in other games that had one. 

TBH, I think many people don't really understand the Pareto Principle, and think that different mechanics can produce something other than the 80/20 rule, if only the developers would design things "for the little guy". 

Sure mechanics can be built that tries to reduce the impact of the 80/20 rule, where a total knowledge auction house would accelerate it,  but NOTHING is ever going to "solve it" because it's just a natural tendency in all things economic.  

Personally, I am looking forward to the whole "different currencies" and "place buy orders" that is somewhere on the road map.  Until at least those two pieces are in, even the basics of an economic buy/sell loop will be lacking. 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
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33 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

The economy and EK loop is certainly one of the least fleshed out pieces of the puzzle. Probably because the answer is what I would call "marketing tools" that don't just go full auction house, central point of distribution. While that would be ideal for the customer side of the equation, that model can go disastrously for "small shop" players as the big guilds have been seen to monopolize like Walmart does in other games that had one. 

I think even a monopolistic game-wide auction house would be improvement since currently everyone suffers. But your right, without buy orders and I believe an in-game mail system for handling/tracking items it would be hard to implement effective AH. On the other hand, I can look at unity store and see that some guy named randy is selling unity AH plugin for 19.99, I am pretty sure over the past couple years they could have found time to implement, heck they could have hired randy for gods sake. No, I fear they just dont want to have auction houses. 

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On 4/20/2021 at 2:55 AM, Aedius said:

because you can have up to 3 tray and circling on the 3 with one button is difficult, so instead of having 2 tech ( for 2 and 3 tray ), they just build one.

thats when u make melee and range toggleable and stealth be a seperate. Generaly speaking there no reason why melee and range cant be on the same button so ur efectivly dropping one button required for keybinding tray swapping by 1 doing this and making jumping from melee and range easier

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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3 hours ago, mystafyi said:

I think even a monopolistic game-wide auction house would be improvement since currently everyone suffers. But your right, without buy orders and I believe an in-game mail system for handling/tracking items it would be hard to implement effective AH. On the other hand, I can look at unity store and see that some guy named randy is selling unity AH plugin for 19.99, I am pretty sure over the past couple years they could have found time to implement, heck they could have hired randy for gods sake. No, I fear they just dont want to have auction houses. 

Personally, I think they should break the whole thing into two categories. Lets call it supply and demand.

Supply.

Any item that stacks.  Raw materials, crafted items or parts without rolls, basically anything that stacks, like I said.
To handle the sell of supplies the easiest, use what is already there in terms of the public vendors.  You ALWAYS sell these things to vendors.  Let players put in a bid for any of these supplies, that will change the price paid by ALL vendors (they are all the same in terms of buying), and deliver those items to whoever is buying. In this way crafters can purchase ALL supplies they need simply by placing an order, but the order is anonymous and there is always the floor price of the current AI vend.

Demand.

In the EK mouse overs, have the ability to list a selection of items and prices as part of the EK selection window, so you can shop the prices, but by the EK. Treat them a bit like billboards and let EK owners advertise both products and price.  Sure we would see loss leaders and other bait, but only so much. Also this would only work for finished goods, or things that don't stack. 

Would an AH be better than what we have, probably. But I think that would be bad, and totally cut the whole EK economy idea out of the loop, which would be worse in the long run.

 The problem with going straight to an AH, is that there is no turning back due to player expectations.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
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Simple economics and game economy needs to be upfront for new players.. "any Economy Hub tool" to show endgame gear glimpse and the wide economy picture. (drive to strive)

-Any game veteran is going to come off of campaigns with won exports and build up eventually a surplus of unused item goods they don't need to carry over to next campaign. 
-A guild needs $ to help their crafters build gear. -while crafters need harvested resources found in many areas, by many players, and ability to get those resources over to them timely.
-A newbie player doesn't see any economy unless they look very closely at EK lobby.. or have to cross the threshold of joining into a guild. Which then only a slight chance they will ever see better gear hit their inventory because the guild elite ultimately decides the veteran- "likely more close social friend voip players" -get dibs to loot, or sold for other cash resource like fort upgrades.
(cause guilds know players don't need gear.. they just need numbers to win in this game, so sell all lowbie gear and build up any infrastructure is most important),

-So a new player feels like they cant venture out on his own (or found out the hard way..) and now forced to just roll with the zerg to survive and even at scheduled fun times.
- New player now not having much fun slaving for a guild, just picking up resources and rolling over smaller number pvp with no real combat skill rotation that small fights would show and have need for.  
- If the chance to pop into any small fights, with same player number odd PVP , they likely loose from no solo pvp practice of toolbar skill rotation. (hopefully hungerdome caters to not just organized 5v5)

-The full zerg mentality in this game has to pull back in areas. Single and new players want playstyle choices, not catering to the guild member elites.. or I expect a low game pop.
Why is stealth even in this game?.. to hit the unskilled harvesters only for a guild loot gain? Throws having surprise 1v1 same skill fun out the window. Harvesters want to harvest/craft/sell. PvP players want skilled actions and decisions.

If we had auction hub or terminal that list of all good sold placed in temples and main campaign keeps- Players can set a playstyle that works best for them to meet into that higher gear threshold and then tackle harder PVP objectives with friends (end of season).
Also decay of items, rinse/repeat.

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11 hours ago, veeshan said:

thats when u make melee and range toggleable and stealth be a seperate. Generaly speaking there no reason why melee and range cant be on the same button so ur efectivly dropping one button required for keybinding tray swapping by 1 doing this and making jumping from melee and range easier

Tray toggle can be annoying. If they add a key to swap between 2 trays with the same key, it should be an option and not forced on everyone.

IhhQKY6.gif

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On 4/21/2021 at 10:02 AM, KrakkenSmacken said:

Would an AH be better than what we have, probably. But I think that would be bad, and totally cut the whole EK economy idea out of the loop, which would be worse in the long run.

The problem with going straight to an AH, is that there is no turning back due to player expectations.

Just like everything else, features/systems come in many flavors. The negativity that AH carry ignores that there are multiple ways to go about such things.

Albion Online which shares similarities with Crowfall managed to figured out to have a player driven economy, mob drops, and full loot within the game loop.

For the most part all regular items are crafted in Albion and they have a system that puts those items onto mobs instead of being created from nothing. @mystafyi Which I know is seen as an issue from some.

It also has independent markets per city, easily searchable UI, mail system, buy/sell orders, price tracking, etc. None of which is above and beyond what "player expectations" likely are for many gamers.

The hyped up early player economy and vids ACE did with Koster sounded cool, but reality is much different then some guys talking about good ole times and wanting to recapture the feels.

I guess there are people that enjoy loading screens, running from A to Z, waving their mouse around, and having little insight into things, but my guess is most would prefer an accessible economy that ACE has failed to deliver at this point. Maybe months/years after launch it could get there, but in that time they could also build something like Albion's model as well.

It is entirely possible to have an accessible player driven economy in a "PVP game" along with mob drops and all the other "player expectations" being met. Allowing solo players to be profitable harvesters/crafters/traders and not just the big guys.

Choosing to do it different and falling flat is not commendable.

No clue how EVE's market works but it too seems to have done just fine in another full loot player driven MMO.

 

Edited by APE

 


 

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9 hours ago, APE said:

The hyped up early player economy and vids ACE did with Koster sounded cool, but reality is much different then some guys talking about good ole times and wanting to recapture the feels.

Ya, Koster, the guy who was in charge of star wars NGE debacle.

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