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Archmage - the class with no weaknesses


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The first step to talk about OP class, is to use it, because if you don't use it, is just a cry because you lose. So yeah, I played a lot of games on NA times, probably 0 archmages there, maybe 1, but I saw every single team with warden+alpha. 
 

just my opinion, embarrassing post, but funny so keep going

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For the sake of keeping it specific, let's focus on Hungerdome, which I think this is where you created this thread from. "Fighting this class there is no situation where they are on the back foot. I

How many hungerdome games did you play the class yourself, before you wrote this thread? This is why I was hesitant to go into this discussion, because your approach to a discussion is really just "

Put a good player on any decent DPS class and they'll do some amazing things.  Fanatic, Titan, Arch Mage, Alpha, etc.  Arch mages are squishy and lack the escape of say a fanatic but have be

7 minutes ago, FalcoNy said:

The first step to talk about OP class, is to use it, because if you don't use it, is just a cry because you lose. So yeah, I played a lot of games on NA times, probably 0 archmages there, maybe 1, but I saw every single team with warden+alpha. 
 

just my opinion, embarrassing post, but funny so keep going

Only thing embarrassing here is the lack of rebuttal. Instead of calling me bad, show me how I am wrong. I am by no means the only one who thinks this class is an abomination. Surely you have played it and can tell me where I am wrong in my analysis.

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16 hours ago, Van_Zant said:

This all reads like you died to an AM a couple of times doing predictable things, they cannot infinitely spam any ice and the knockdown one (Frigid for reference) only knocks you down if you run into it TWICE.

 

 

Pretty sure you can get ice buildup on the target with the ground AoE ability, Freezing Blast, then you just need to hit with a single Frigid Ice. It's pretty easy to do

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13 minutes ago, Balathan said:

Only thing embarrassing here is the lack of rebuttal. Instead of calling me bad, show me how I am wrong. I am by no means the only one who thinks this class is an abomination. Surely you have played it and can tell me where I am wrong in my analysis.

I feel AM needs more skill to be as effective as some other build that shall not be named. To be brutally honest here, I have to agree with falco in that unless you see AM's become commonplace its not the elephant in the room. There will always be a FotM build, as long as it doesnt get out of hand, ride the wave baby, dont fight it.

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For the sake of keeping it specific, let's focus on Hungerdome, which I think this is where you created this thread from.

"Fighting this class there is no situation where they are on the back foot. In the open field they kite you with infinite CC and do solid damage + a dot. You cannot possibly close distance and kill them."

This is not exactly true, it's the team around the archmage that can make this possible. The 'infinite' CC you are talking about actually does not come from the archmage very much, more it's teammates (like warden trapmaster stun spam, stakes and other aoe CC from other classes).
Closing the distance is quite easy, good teams can do this, rotate mobility cooldowns with pulls etc. pretty basic team coordination.

"In confined spaces you are permanently heal debuffed, slowed, Ice armor debuffed and susceptible to chaos orb cheese hitting your whole group for 4-5k and shatter storm deleting your group for a similar amount."


I agree the black ice is and incredibly powerful spell, putting a field that people just have to touch to get PHM debuffed is strong. Ice armor debuff is just like any other debuff in the game, this one though only benefits the frostweaver, since it's pure ice armor break. If we look at the Warden in this case, they keep up permanent physical armor break, which benefits a whole range of other classes, or the confessor who has elemental armor break on basic attacks, which other elemental damage dealers also benefit from.
Shatterstorm doesn't delete people, it does high damage when paired with armor break + a good weapon, but is aoe circle is fairly small, and you can easily dodge out of it, just like the vindicators divine light that you previously stated.
Chaos orb is very strong yes, IF you channel it 100%, taking around 3 seconds of channel time. Now this is very hard to pull off if you are being focused, and in the world of aoe CC spam (Warden traps, fury etc.), your channel will get broken a lot and no chaos orb goes off if you get interrupted while channeling - what I am trying to say is, if you get chaos orbed, that is your own fault.
The slow is decent, but gets overwrited by the slow stake from other archetypes.

"Shatter storm plus ice stores = big damage"

Now you don't really wanna spam use your ice stores;
1 - You will lose your 10% crit buff from the archemage talents.
2 - If you have no ice store, every ice weave costs 200 mana = you go oom instantly.
3 - If you spam so much that you use ulti purely for mana = you die.

Also the volatile ice proc from shatterstorm has an internal cooldown, so you dont get RNG'd to death.

I almost never cast more than 1 or 2 frigid ice through free weaving, simply cause the cost versus the output is not worth it.
Frigid ice is not a reliable aoe knockdown spamable thing, it's very costly, and for it to knock down, first you have to root the first with a frigid ice (meaning they have to step on it), and then after the retaliate, you have to make them step on another frigid ice, for it to knock down.

"Ranged Execute: This class has a ranged 5 second CD 2 hit execute what else needs to be said?"

It's weird to me that they didn't include more executes in the archetypes, like the Titan would be an obvious choice.
Either way, the cast time for each execute power, is around 1.5 seconds - and it's bodyblockable since it's single target. And again, in the world of aoe CC, pulls and what-not, this is not 100% reliable. Theoretically then yes, it's super strong, in practice it's another story.

"It has no mobility skill
: With the prevalence of stakes in the meta this is not really an issue as the enemies are always slowed so you can just walk away."

Exactly, it doesn't have any mobility skill, so you have to rely on your teammates to help you out - stakes is not in the toolkit of the Archmage.
- It also means you have to use at least half your brain, to not spam all dodges out at the same time.


"Its in leather: All classes give and take true damage in this game."

Like all other classes as you say, since there are so many armor breaks. But you can die in a few seconds if you're not careful - exactly because you have 0 armor the entire time.
Where mail and plate users in the end can achieve more than the 20% armor breaks that are applied, archmage will be at 0% throughout the game.

"It has no defensive skills: This can be corrected with master of focus giving mana shield. In addition with a 27 second CD ultimate that gives 5 second damage reduction you can reduce nearly all damage you receive."


Well, Mana shield is a 1300 barrier, and we all know how faster 1300 is gone in teamfights with dots etc. And ultimate giving 5 second damage reduction, is exactly the same as any other ulti, confessor have 2, alpha warrior almost 3, etc.

"Conclusion: This class has absolutely no situation where it may under perform. Melee have not a hope of hitting them for more than 2-3 seconds continuously. If they can even get there. It is almost impossible to kill and played correctly can put huge pressure on groups."

I think many classes has no place where it under performs if played correctly. Melee not being able to stay on the archmage is not really an archmage direct problem, that's more the melee players, the melee players' team, and the archmage team that prevents them. It's not like the archmage is permanently immune to CC itself?


My main question is, if it's impossible to kill, and so very easy to do damage on, why is it not in every group like the warden?


Like Van_Zant said, yes the glass cannon does damage.

It literally has nothing else but damage, anti healing, some crowd control (like every class in the game), ultimate and dodge rolls as defensives.

Edited by Yumx

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4 minutes ago, Yumx said:

For the sake of keeping it specific, let's focus on Hungerdome, which I think this is where you created this thread from.

"Fighting this class there is no situation where they are on the back foot. In the open field they kite you with infinite CC and do solid damage + a dot. You cannot possibly close distance and kill them."

This is not exactly true, it's the team around the archmage that can make this possible. The 'infinite' CC you are talking about actually does not come from the archmage very much, more it's teammates (like warden trapmaster stun spam, stakes and other aoe CC from other classes).
Closing the distance is quite easy, good teams can do this, rotate mobility cooldowns with pulls etc. pretty basic team coordination.

"In confined spaces you are permanently heal debuffed, slowed, Ice armor debuffed and susceptible to chaos orb cheese hitting your whole group for 4-5k and shatter storm deleting your group for a similar amount."


I agree the black ice is and incredibly powerful spell, putting a field that people just have to touch to get PHM debuffed is strong. Ice armor debuff is just like any other debuff in the game, this one though only benefits the frostweaver, since it's pure ice armor break. If we look at the Warden in this case, they keep up permanent physical armor break, which benefits a whole range of other classes, or the confessor who has elemental armor break on basic attacks, which other elemental damage dealers also benefit from.
Shatterstorm doesn't delete people, it does high damage when paired with armor break + a good weapon, but is aoe circle is fairly small, and you can easily dodge out of it, just like the vindicators divine light that you previously stated.
Chaos orb is very strong yes, IF you channel it 100%, taking around 3 seconds of channel time. Now this is very hard to pull off if you are being focused, and in the world of aoe CC spam (Warden traps, fury etc.), your channel will get broken a lot and no chaos orb goes off if you get interrupted while channeling - what I am trying to say is, if you get chaos orbed, that is your own fault.
The slow is decent, but gets overwrited by the slow stake from other archetypes.

"Shatter storm plus ice stores = big damage"

Now you don't really wanna spam use your ice stores;
1 - You will lose your 10% crit buff from the archemage talents.
2 - If you have no ice store, every ice weave costs 200 mana = you go oom instantly.
3 - If you spam so much that you use ulti purely for mana = you die.

Also the volatile ice proc from shatterstorm has an internal cooldown, so you get RNG'd to death.

I almost never cast more than 1 or 2 frigid ice through free weaving, simply cause the cost versus the output is not worth it.
Frigid ice is not a reliable aoe knockdown spamable thing, it's very costly, and for it to knock down, first you have to root the first with a frigid ice (meaning they have to step on it), and then after the retaliate, you have to make them step on another frigid ice, for it to knock down.

"Ranged Execute: This class has a ranged 5 second CD 2 hit execute what else needs to be said?"

It's weird to me that they didn't include more executes in the archetypes, like the Titan would be an obvious choice.
Either way, the cast time for each execute power, is around 1.5 seconds - and it's bodyblockable since it's single target. And again, in the world of aoe CC, pulls and what-not, this is not 100% reliable. Theoretically then yes, it's super strong, in practice it's another story.

"It has no mobility skill
: With the prevalence of stakes in the meta this is not really an issue as the enemies are always slowed so you can just walk away."

Exactly, it doesn't have any mobility skill, so you have to rely on your teammates to help you out - stakes is not in the toolkit of the Archmage.
- It also means you have to use at least half your brain, to not spam all dodges out at the same time.


"Its in leather: All classes give and take true damage in this game."

Like all other classes as you say, since there are so many armor breaks. But you can die in a few seconds if you're not careful - exactly because you have 0 armor the entire time.
Where mail and plate users in the end can achieve more than the 20% armor breaks that are applied, archmage will be at 0% throughout the game.

"It has no defensive skills: This can be corrected with master of focus giving mana shield. In addition with a 27 second CD ultimate that gives 5 second damage reduction you can reduce nearly all damage you receive."


Well, Mana shield is a 1300 barrier, and we all know how faster 1300 is gone in teamfights with dots etc. And ultimate giving 5 second damage reduction, is exactly the same as any other ulti, confessor have 2, alpha warrior almost 3, etc.

"Conclusion: This class has absolutely no situation where it may under perform. Melee have not a hope of hitting them for more than 2-3 seconds continuously. If they can even get there. It is almost impossible to kill and played correctly can put huge pressure on groups."

I think many classes has no place where it under performs if played correctly. Melee not being able to stay on the archmage is not really an archmage direct problem, that's more the melee players, the melee players' team, and the archmage team that prevents them. It's not like the archmage is permanently immune to CC itself?


My main question is, if it's impossible to kill, and so very easy to do damage on, why is it not in every group like the warden?


Like Van_Zant said, yes the glass cannon does damage.

It literally has nothing else but damage, anti healing, some crowd control (like every class in the game), ultimate and dodge rolls as defensives.

All right, lets start from the top.

"This is not exactly true, it's the team around the archmage that can make this possible. The 'infinite' CC you are talking about actually does not come from the archmage very much, more it's teammates (like warden trapmaster stun spam, stakes and other aoe CC from other classes).
Closing the distance is quite easy, good teams can do this, rotate mobility cooldowns with pulls etc. pretty basic team coordination."

Archmage CC contribution is that of a CC class while being a damage class. While it can infinitely CC you itself as you point out further in the post this would run you out of ice. You dont need to literally spam the CC button. You just need to do enough to run them out of stam and let your team do the rest. While in a balanced game where CC and burst damage was not the end all be all of combat this class may exist just fine in this game in this game its a monster. Archmage is the epitome of Crowfall's combat, Kite kite kite, turn and burn. It doesn't need to lock you down permanently itself. Though for a time it can. It just needs to run you out of Stam so the other CCs have full duration. Its more CC in a CC bloated game and Archmages CC is possibly the most shameless CC bloat I've seen. 

 

"I agree the black ice is and incredibly powerful spell, putting a field that people just have to touch to get PHM debuffed is strong. Ice armor debuff is just like any other debuff in the game, this one though only benefits the frostweaver, since it's pure ice armor break. If we look at the Warden in this case, they keep up permanent physical armor break, which benefits a whole range of other classes, or the confessor who has elemental armor break on basic attacks, which other elemental damage dealers also benefit from."

Glad we agree, but'/yawn more whatabout Warden.

 

"Shatterstorm doesn't delete people, it does high damage when paired with armor break + a good weapon, but is aoe circle is fairly small, and you can easily dodge out of it, just like the vindicators divine light that you previously stated.
Chaos orb is very strong yes, IF you channel it 100%, taking around 3 seconds of channel time. Now this is very hard to pull off if you are being focused, and in the world of aoe CC spam (Warden traps, fury etc.), your channel will get broken a lot and no chaos orb goes off if you get interrupted while channeling - what I am trying to say is, if you get chaos orbed, that is your own fault.
The slow is decent, but gets overwrited by the slow stake from other archetypes."

Shatter storm does high damage is an understatement. Its AoE circle being small is a good joke to be sure. While you can easily dodge out of it most of the damage is front loaded. Once again '/yawn Whatabout Vindi.

Chaos Orb cheese has solid counter play until you factor in the 8 or 9 second CD that actually starts while channeling, so really 6 seconds or so. So are we supposed to chase you the whole time and make sure you cant channel or we all die?

"It's weird to me that they didn't include more executes in the archetypes, like the Titan would be an obvious choice.
Either way, the cast time for each execute power, is around 1.5 seconds - and it's bodyblockable since it's single target. And again, in the world of aoe CC, pulls and what-not, this is not 100% reliable. Theoretically then yes, it's super strong, in practice it's another story."

"Like all other classes as you say, since there are so many armor breaks. But you can die in a few seconds if you're not careful - exactly because you have 0 armor the entire time.
Where mail and plate users in the end can achieve more than the 20% armor breaks that are applied, archmage will be at 0% throughout the game."

I don't actually disagree. All classes have 0% armor 95-100% of the time due to Armor Pen/debuffs.

 


"Well, Mana shield is a 1300 barrier, and we all know how faster 1300 is gone in teamfights with dots etc. And ultimate giving 5 second damage reduction, is exactly the same as any other ulti, confessor have 2, alpha warrior almost 3, etc."

Alpha is melee and Confessors dont have the CC spam but yes ultimates are a problem, I have posted about this a few times on the feedback threads. No argument here.

 

"Now you don't really wanna spam use your ice stores;
1 - You will lose your 10% crit buff from the archemage talents.
2 - If you have no ice store, every ice weave costs 200 mana = you go oom instantly.
3 - If you spam so much that you use ulti purely for mana = you die.

Also the volatile ice proc from shatterstorm has an internal cooldown, so you get RNG'd to death."

My understanding is you dont lose the buff unless you hit 0 Ice so just dont use it all.

Yes if you mindlessly waste your mana that is bad but you dont need to really do that. The 4 in storage should/do provide more than enough damage.

No one said use it for mana. If you are focused, and you will be, it will be used frequently enough mana issues should be minimal to nonexistent.

 

"I think many classes has no place where it under performs if played correctly. Melee not being able to stay on the archmage is not really an archmage direct problem, that's more the melee players, the melee players' team, and the archmage team that prevents them. It's not like the archmage is permanently immune to CC itself?


My main question is, if it's impossible to kill, and so very easy to do damage on, why is it not in every group like the warden?"

Archmage is ranged so while they are not immune to CC they do not need to close distance to apply damage. A few seconds of closing distance after EVERY CC adds up. Telling melee to get good is not realistic. I notice you dont play melee. Im going to guess its for the same reason all people are hating melee right now. CCfall is a problem and one I have posted about on multiple feedback posts.

As for your question. Crowfall as a whole is an incredibly low skill game. People saw a class with more than 3 buttons and panicked so no one tried it. You are a pioneer to be sure but lets not pretend playing this class is an insurmountable challenge. When we get some new people in the game who are not afraid of 5+ buttons you will see these everywhere.

 

I understand money is now on the line and I would hate to get between you and your money. But I call it like I see it this thing is in need of some balancing. Or ACE could just balance Armor values and CC and this kind of resolves itself but lets be real ACE don't even read our posts. They don't even know there's a problem. 

 

As a side note, do I need to make a thread about Warden too. People keep bringing it up. At no point did I say that thing was ok. It needs a thread too.

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1 minute ago, Balathan said:

bla

How many hungerdome games did you play the class yourself, before you wrote this thread?
This is why I was hesitant to go into this discussion, because your approach to a discussion is really just "I think this is a lack of rebuttal, therefor I am right".

I am going to leave you on your weird crusade from here, thanks for your time!

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2 minutes ago, Yumx said:

How many hungerdome games did you play the class yourself, before you wrote this thread?
This is why I was hesitant to go into this discussion, because your approach to a discussion is really just "I think this is a lack of rebuttal, therefor I am right".

I am going to leave you on your weird crusade from here, thanks for your time!

+1 to Yumx's words as actively playing HD Archmage.

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4 minutes ago, Yumx said:

How many hungerdome games did you play the class yourself, before you wrote this thread?
This is why I was hesitant to go into this discussion, because your approach to a discussion is really just "I think this is a lack of rebuttal, therefor I am right".

I am going to leave you on your weird crusade from here, thanks for your time!

All right, thanks for playing. If I am wrong, and you seem to think I am, I would think you of all people could articulate why. Maybe post some video where you break down your play or something. I guess discussion is frowned upon in this game. No wonder nothing ever gets changed.

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Just now, Wilbur said:

Fixed.

Oof, you got me. My bad for expecting someone to show or at the very least tell me how I am wrong. You are, as always, integral to these discussions. 

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4 minutes ago, Balathan said:

All right, thanks for playing. If I am wrong, and you seem to think I am, I would think you of all people could articulate why. Maybe post some video where you break down your play or something. I guess discussion is frowned upon in this game. No wonder nothing ever gets changed.

The problem is that you claim on the one side that its "an incredible low skillgame" and 2 lines further you say "When we get some new people in the game who are not afraid of 5+ buttons you will see these everywhere. " 

Its weird to me... how bad do you think is the whole community at this point in facerolling?

Get over it, play it yourself, prove your point, come back

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Just now, Makuza said:

The problem is that you claim on the one side that its "an incredible low skillgame" and 2 lines further you say "When we get some new people in the game who are not afraid of 5+ buttons you will see these everywhere. " 

Its weird to me... how bad do you think is the whole community at this point in facerolling?

Get over it, play it yourself, prove your point, come back

Crowfall itself is an incredibly low skill game, this being said there are maybe 2 or 3 classes that require more than 4 braincells. Two things can indeed be true at once. The game as a whole can be easy with a few exceptions. I understand this is a difficult concept. You guys are awfully quick to defend your leader here, have you all played this thing as well? Surely before telling me to play it before I weigh in you played it before weighing in. Right?

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2 minutes ago, Balathan said:

have you all played this thing as well? Surely before telling me to play it before I weigh in you played it before weighing in. Right?

Yes, I got roflstomped.

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6 minutes ago, Balathan said:

Crowfall itself is an incredibly low skill game, this being said there are maybe 2 or 3 classes that require more than 4 braincells. Two things can indeed be true at once. The game as a whole can be easy with a few exceptions. I understand this is a difficult concept. You guys are awfully quick to defend your leader here, have you all played this thing as well? Surely before telling me to play it before I weigh in you played it before weighing in. Right?

ya.. played actually alot of FG (op and nerfed iteration), Icecaller pretty much all the way and also Archmage.. and all the other classes beside of Clerics and Duellists beside for trolling... yep. I did

The point is, its really easy to pick up the classes in CF, which leads more to the important factors which apply to every game period and not so much about the few buttons you have to press to create vfx on that one character you controll right now

Edited by Makuza
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5 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

Yes, I got roflstomped.

Of that I have no doubt.

4 minutes ago, Makuza said:

ya.. played actually alot of FG (op and nerfed iteration), Icecaller pretty much all the way and also Archmage.. and all the other classes beside of Clerics and Duellists beside for trolling... yep. I did

Good, I'm glad you practice what you preach. For having all this experience your responses oddly lack substance. Perhaps you could review my notes on the class and tell me where/how I got it wrong and this is a perfectly fine class. Or has this devolved into a gitgud thread?

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Just now, Balathan said:

Or has this devolved into a gitgud thread?

That would be the easy way...but common sense makes it also possible.

Your article pretty much showcases how "broken op" that spec is. If a spec reaches that level it usually becomes Meta or fotm. Well...sad story, thats not the case here. Case closed

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3 minutes ago, Makuza said:

That would be the easy way...but common sense makes it also possible.

Your article pretty much showcases how "broken op" that spec is. If a spec reaches that level it usually becomes Meta or fotm. Well...sad story, thats not the case here. Case closed

So... that's a no to the actual rebuttal of the analysis then?

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Just now, Balathan said:

So... that's a no to the actual rebuttal of the analysis then?

I dont know..you still didnt play that class, stick to brainless stuff ala Alphawarrior and stuff got explained to you very well a few posts above..I guess you should end it here my friend

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