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Game has too much dependancy on other players


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This game will live or die on population, even slight reduction in population will end up in doom. The game should have solo content like some solo dungeons, solo bosses, world bosses etc. Open world PVP can exists it's fine, but lack of PVE content is a bit alarming. I will wait and see how this game goes on launch and see how the game does in 6 months.

Thanks for the beta invite.

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42 minutes ago, TheFibrewire said:

This game will live or die on population, even slight reduction in population will end up in doom. The game should have solo content like some solo dungeons, solo bosses, world bosses etc. Open world PVP can exists it's fine, but lack of PVE content is a bit alarming. I will wait and see how this game goes on launch and see how the game does in 6 months.

Thanks for the beta invite.

There are plenty of games that have lots of solo content. What causes you to think that EVERY game must have it?

Hell, Crowfall doesn't have ANY dungeons, much less solo dungeons.

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31 minutes ago, MacDeath said:

There are plenty of games that have lots of solo content. What causes you to think that EVERY game must have it?

Hell, Crowfall doesn't have ANY dungeons, much less solo dungeons.

I know it's easy to say "It's a PvP game" and move on, but...

Suggestions aside, I think the point being made is that what activities that are available are reliant on other players for them to be enjoyable. Capping outposts uncontested is really boring. Same for caravans, farming WT, etc. If you're online at a low population time, the game feels really bad. It's basically: put music on, get coffee, grind, try not to fall asleep, fall asleep a lot.

One of the arguments for more "interesting" PvE elements is to ensure a minimum level of enjoyment/playability that functions regardless of whether other people are online and contesting what you're doing. Granted it's best to set these activities up in such a way that they become more engaging when people do show up (PvEvP), but they have to be minimally engaging without other players too. Farming WT and harvesting are, currently, bare minimum entertainment value, and they don't really motivate a lot of players to engage. I mean, it's not like this feedback has been uncommon throughout beta.

Edited by Pystkeebler
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i Do agree there needs to be more engaging PvE content in the game be it dungeons (Non instanced) with bosses that spawn within that have some interesting mechanics (not just more hp and dmg which we currently have)
Rare spawns in the open world (Can be like a green bear for example and drops a green bear saddle mount (Can literaly just change the hue of the mobs and maybe a little more challenging) or unique crafting components

If they can make mobs difficulty/loot scale based on amount of players around them it be a good one too tbh mobs are to easy for 1 person let aloner muiltipul people (Can make them scale so there get alot harder if you try and zerg them this way a group encounter would be good for 1 group but bringing 2 groups makes the mob 3 times harder for example this way group orinated mobs are ideal to kill with 1 group instead of easily zerging it, you can also go the other way and reduce the mob drops if there to many players when it comes to bosses to promoted the group content (Specificly open world dungeons for example could be focued on 5 man content (well based on 1 group size what ever the dial might be on at the time)

Yes people will be like why do we need PvE it a Pvp game i see it time and time again but they need to know PvE bring in players and then Players = pvp content so if you get good pve or atleast interesting baseline pve to keep those pve player interested in the game then you will gain some increased pvp content. The only thing that should not happen is thing like instances that would end up removing pvp content however open world dungeons are amazing since u always get that looming danger of a group coming in while ur farming.

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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1 hour ago, mystafyi said:

Too bad the dev's said in the last QA that there was enough content...

I don't think there needs to be bunches of "new" activities added immediately to start to address the problems. Even just retooling what's there would help drive more engagement.

  • Increasing average difficulty of WT mobs. Reorganizing camps a bit into group pulls. Adding patrol groups. Adjusting chiefs to spawn once a capture point within a camp has been taken. Adding some horde-style waves during contesting the chief capture point.
  • Similarly, increasing outpost guard difficulty, and adding horde-style guard waves during capture. Have them warp in a la reverse recall animation. Reward XP and loot for guards. Rewarding XP for all PvP objectives would be a welcome change.
  • Reducing availability of high-end resource nodes and motherlodes. Making these nodes and hunger shards spawn as events with, again, slightly higher difficulty hunger animals and zombies (what happened to zombies btw?).
  • Improving the visibility and presentation of what world bosses do exist would go a long way.

The idea mostly being to use somewhat difficult PvE elements around PvP / Divine Favor objectives to ensure that there's a minimum amount of engagement required, and to reduce the instances where you're sitting at your computer doing effectively AFK tasks.

I understand all of this stuff takes work, but it's not demanding new tech like instanced 5v5v5v5 dungeon portals, etc.

The one piece that I wish they had was actually putting events on the map instead of in the events channel. That just compounds the pain that is the chat system by having to keep that up.

Edited by Pystkeebler
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9 hours ago, Pystkeebler said:

I don't think there needs to be bunches of "new" activities added immediately to start to address the problems. Even just retooling what's there would help drive more engagement.

Pray tell, how does one retool an escort quest to not suck? They are even hated in themeparks where there is lore and story/voice-overs/cutscenes/ect. 

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I disagree 100%

This is a pvp game, not a solo pve game.

I will say this though...

You need group pve content to promote group pvp content.

 

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8 hours ago, mystafyi said:

Pray tell, how does one retool an escort quest to not suck? They are even hated in themeparks where there is lore and story/voice-overs/cutscenes/ect. 

They suck when grinding them in off hours, alone, but they're not that bad when contested. They are only part of the territory control game, really, so there's no reason to force players to grind pigs in off hours. They should be contested objectives, much like forts, except that they pay out immediately. I would suggest:

  • Make them only spawn during/around siege windows
  • Increase the building material rewards to account for reduced frequency.
    • If I have to run pigs once a day, then I'm much less likely to find them annoying.
  • Add some gold/dust yield.
  • Allow a player to only tame 1 animal at a time, so it has to be a group effort.
  • Riding pigs as mounts would be more satisfying than fighting with their pathing issues.
  • The spawn locations need to have some stronger restrictions on proximity to keeps.

Increase the risk, increase the reward, decrease the frequency of annoyance.

Edited by Pystkeebler
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1 hour ago, Pystkeebler said:
  • Riding pigs as mounts would be more satisfying than fighting with their pathing issues.

It would indeed be better if it was classified as a type of mount with unique properties just for pig cart duty. Perhaps let players choose the speed of pig which would effect rewards. For example, some players could choose speed/stealth for smaller rewards, on the other hand the group that chooses the slowest pigs, say with increased agro range and broadcasting alerts would garner larger rewards. 

 

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So, at this point, they could add world boss mobs that drop useful items and are, of course, contestable.  This is not solo content, but it would add another interesting, PvE resource that would give an additional option for play.  Make their spawn times random, and their locations, and that will promote exploration.  In addition, making hidden useful treasures, such as chests at random locations, would be a relatively simple implementation that would promote some solo play and, again, exploration.  

EDIT:  I'm not talking about the king of the pigmen or a bandit chief--I mean giants, dragons, liches, eldritch horrors, etc. 

Edited by Baomaug

“... [T]he pure light of chivalry... distinguishes the noble from the base, the gentle knight from the churl and the savage;... rates our life far, far beneath the pitch of our honour, raises us victorious over pain, toil, and suffering, and teaches us to fear no evil but disgrace.” --Walter Scott

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8 minutes ago, Baomaug said:

So, at this point, they could add world boss mobs that drop useful items and are, of course, contestable.  This is not solo content, but it would add another interesting, PvE resource that would give an additional option for play.  Make their spawn times random, and their locations, and that will promote exploration.  In addition, making hidden useful treasures, such as chests at random locations, would be a relatively simple implementation that would promote some solo play and, again, exploration.  

EDIT:  I'm not talking about the king of the pigmen or a bandit chief--I mean giants, dragons, liches, eldritch horrors, etc. 

Technically there are heralds and ancients (like the gryphons in HungerDome). They're just not very well communicated/presented to players. I don't think I've seen one in my time playing. I would wager most people don't even know they exist. Granted they could do with more variety in this department as well.

 

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56 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

It would indeed be better if it was classified as a type of mount with unique properties just for pig cart duty. Perhaps let players choose the speed of pig which would effect rewards. For example, some players could choose speed/stealth for smaller rewards, on the other hand the group that chooses the slowest pigs, say with increased agro range and broadcasting alerts would garner larger rewards. 

 

This could work. Just straight up remove pigs, add building materials inventory to all mounts, have caravan POIs spawn materials in boxes, and add mount speed debuff depending on how loaded your mount is.

Probably requires too many tech changes to be happen any time soon though, 😒

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5 hours ago, Rudedawg said:

I disagree 100%

This is a pvp game, not a solo pve game.

I will say this though...

You need group pve content to promote group pvp content.

If this is a "PVP Game" which I disagree with at this point, then there is even more dependency on other players as the discussion titles suggest. Without players there is no PVP and players are left doing whatever random mundane tasks are available. If both parts are lacking, the game has no future.

This is a PVPVE game as PVE is overall more important to outcomes then PVP itself. Siege is the big ticket even for winning campaigns but capturing/holding a POI can be done with zero opposition. Everything else is PVE first with PVP potential existing but not required.

 


 

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22 hours ago, Pystkeebler said:

I don't think there needs to be bunches of "new" activities added immediately to start to address the problems. Even just retooling what's there would help drive more engagement.

  • Increasing average difficulty of WT mobs. Reorganizing camps a bit into group pulls. Adding patrol groups. Adjusting chiefs to spawn once a capture point within a camp has been taken. Adding some horde-style waves during contesting the chief capture point.
  • Similarly, increasing outpost guard difficulty, and adding horde-style guard waves during capture. Have them warp in a la reverse recall animation. Reward XP and loot for guards. Rewarding XP for all PvP objectives would be a welcome change.
  • Reducing availability of high-end resource nodes and motherlodes. Making these nodes and hunger shards spawn as events with, again, slightly higher difficulty hunger animals and zombies (what happened to zombies btw?).
  • Improving the visibility and presentation of what world bosses do exist would go a long way.

The idea mostly being to use somewhat difficult PvE elements around PvP / Divine Favor objectives to ensure that there's a minimum amount of engagement required, and to reduce the instances where you're sitting at your computer doing effectively AFK tasks.

I understand all of this stuff takes work, but it's not demanding new tech like instanced 5v5v5v5 dungeon portals, etc.

The one piece that I wish they had was actually putting events on the map instead of in the events channel. That just compounds the pain that is the chat system by having to keep that up.

Agree with all of this.

 


 

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5 minutes ago, APE said:

Without players there is no PVP

Exactly. PvP is always dependent on other players, in any game. Open world MMOs make this more acutely felt, unlike a matchmaking game that can potentially ensure even a small population is thrown together for PvP. So long as the playerbase is small this PvP-centric game won't feel PvP-centric.

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Before we get solo bosses and solo dungeons, could we get group bosses and group dungeons? This game lacks a lot of the fun and challenging group content you can find in other games. I think forcing people to work together in an MMO is a great thing, but it also needs to be easy to find people to work with and form a group (this is a UI/UX problem, usually). There also needs to be content/objectives/dungeons for those groups to tackle and reasons for them to be out in the world.

Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

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8 minutes ago, Jah said:

Exactly. PvP is always dependent on other players, in any game. Open world MMOs make this more acutely felt, unlike a matchmaking game that can potentially ensure even a small population is thrown together for PvP. So long as the playerbase is small this PvP-centric game won't feel PvP-centric.

Yep.

Not sure I've ever seen a "successful" MMO with poor PVE be carried by calling it a PVP game. Especially when the PVP content isn't above and beyond what else is out there.

I understand the use of Hunger Dome to attempt to sale this as a PVP game, but what MMO doesn't offer similar experiences if not a lot more? A BR is a new MMO format, but due to team stacking and other BR issues, I don't see it being enough to keep people hooked be it HD or Crowfall the MMO. It's an oddity that will draw some interest but once people have spent their nickel they will likely move on to games that offer a lot more quantity/quality be it PVE, PVP, or both.

 


 

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I think the world is too big and plentiful for the population we have so it's easier to skirt around than it is to contest, and most people take the easier option for a multitude of reasons. Not saying there aren't times where skirting by is a good option, but full groups can just avoid each other completely. Someone gets hit, the rally call goes out, and boom, no enemies. You'd think they cried wolf.

I think this opens the bigger picture of, what is there to fight over? Resources are not scarce, outposts are everywhere, wartribes are not scarce, etc. You get ganked in one spot well you just go find another. Divine favor cards offer some, which is great when the wartribe sac gets lucky and there's only one camp of that type and then the god statue flips about 20 times a day, but that's not enough. I hate to bring HD into this but it's kinda nice to watch 12 groups of 5 fight over 4 gryphons. It's scarce, limited, and drops something useful and there is guaranteed fights, either to fight over it, knock someone out, 3rd party, whatever. We just don't see that in dregs.

There's too many keeps, no one really has to go landless, that's more of a measure of how much effort they want to put in or where their alliance is at. The castle is cool and all but there's only one but it controls an empty zone and offers really nothing more in terms of function over the other keeps unless you care about points, but in reality for gathering resources it's better to have a foothold in a zone with more.

TL;DR, too many keeps, too many resources, too much room. Take that away and force people to fight for scraps and they will.

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I think the idea of "chad boss guards" at outposts, forts and keeps might help an outnumbered team actually use a defensive advantage to win outnumbered. The larger group should definitely win in an open field, but currently they can just swamp a smaller team defending a breach or capture point as well. The only issue with a very strong boss guard or several tough elite npcs is that they'll usually make even numbered fights around an objective untenable for the attacker. This means you either HAVE to zerg to take a defended point or you have to wait until the defenders leave and go somewhere else ( or you go somewhere else). The last thing we want is groups of people avoiding each other, but some tough and dangerous NPCs might be just the speed bump needed to prevent groups of players from missing each other at outposts. Ranking up guards to be even tougher and more dangerous would also be a worthwhile investment for players in a 24/7 server like Infected, or a longer Dregs campaign (5-10 days aint enough).

Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

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