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Can we get a faction campaign? (An argument for it)


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Posted (edited)

I believe a faction campaign would bridge the game for a lot of the new players coming into Crowfall, we are bleeding players who get lost in the switch from infected to dregs, its just such a large jump for a lot of new players who get stomped by bigger guilds. A Faction campaign will give new players a chance to group up and meet new people while they take objectives and complete tasks. This is hard to do in dregs since most people you come across in the game will be an enemy and most of the time you will be outnumbered. 

A faction campaign just gives a much more even play ground for new PvPers to have a fighting chance. Are you in a small guild and they are not on to help you take an objective? no big deal you have a lot of other rando's in chat as possible allies and group mates.

Faction campaigns also allow you to do more with a small guild. I personally like small guilds and the more personal relationships that are built in them, its easy to get lost in the shuffle of large guilds and in dregs large guilds are king.

Faction campaigns promote new relationships by facilitating grouping outside your guild. I have met far more people in Infected than dregs. In Dregs people tend to stay within their own guild, at least by my experience this might differ for some people, in Infected I have grouped and meet many new people because many are willing to move out side their own guild for groups.

Why Cant Faction Campaigns still have guild wars?
Why can't their be a war option that allows two guilds of the same faction to declare war on each other. That way just those two guilds battle it out for keeps and glory while others in the faction don't have to be caught in the cross fire. This could also add some interesting politics to the game as guilds try to recuit random faction members to their side.

Why can't Guilds still control a faction keep in Faction campaigns?
If a certain guild acquires a keep it could be controlled by that guild while other faction members can still reap the benefits of the keep. Guilds could still declare war on a guild of the same faction and take the keep from one another.

A reward system for every one.
ACE is already doing this but i just wanted to reiterate that their could still be a guild scoring system with its individual rewards, as well as a faction score with its rewards, and a personal score with its rewards. This kind of fills every ones cup.

I think their is a way good way to implement a faction campaign that is friendly to new pvpers and small guilds with out taking away from the idea of dregs guild vs guild combat.

 

 

Edited by bignick22000
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I can't help but feel that it's doing continued damage to the public image of the game and chances of succeeding at launch to market to, and invite new players into beta with only Dregs and no real Faction campaigns. Anecdotally, it seems like almost every new player feedback post ends at getting confused/bored with Infected, trying out Dregs, getting steam rolled, feeling stuck, and then quitting. That's assuming they make it to 30 which also seems to be not guaranteed. I get that a lot of people backed because of GvG, but I think it's the worst way to introduce new players to the game.

I would honestly recommend rushing out a functional FvF campaign, and putting the chill on Dregs from now until launch. Especially if you hope to capture any percentage of the players returning to, or trying out the game because of the ECS marketing. Just put all the focus on new player experience, player retention, and improving the core gameplay loop until it looks like the playerbase is going to be stable.

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Posted (edited)

If the problem is that the game cant support both Dregs and Shadows at once then the best move for the game is opening Shadows only. The data shows people in a guild have way better chance of sticking around, so what you need to improve is retaining new players.

I still dont understand why we gotta point this out.

Edited by BarriaKarl
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We used to have Shadows as the default campaign, but then folks complained they didn't want "randoms" doing stuff in their keeps and the associated "alt" spying/sabotage issues and wanting to play to crush at all costs

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one problem with it when we had it last time a certain guild decided to roll alts on the other faction so when they get sieged they get there alts to jump onto the siege equipment so they cant be fired forcing the attacking side to throw many more siege equipment's down

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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Wow alts sabotaging sounds sooo sketchy Make it a ban able offense maybe? or maybe the guild who controls the keep could have the ability to keep people out of siege equipment?

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Sure people will grief, cheat, collude, and do all other sorts of gameplay sabotage. This is why report player features exist in so many games...

But most of these aren't showstopper problems. I mean siege equipment ownership rules doesn't seem terribly far fetched. Sure you might have to give up on allowing players to determine what buildings get built, and have set layouts for keeps. This might actually make things more interesting if there is only one Keep of Epic Runecrafting.

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I been barking up this tree for a bit. I do not want to play dregs. I very much want to play a shadows campaign with actual divine favor to win and points that matter. I like having unknown and uncontrollable allies and enemies, and I like how that can drastically reshape how each campaign plays and what it does for my respect for and knowledge of my opponents and allies.

Waiting for player counts to increase when you fling every new player from the pointless non-competition of Infected directly in to "get in a 200 man alliance or suffer" environment of the pvp endgame is not going to grow that player base.

The numbers should be pretty clear by now. A certain type of player is willing to do what is required to have a good time in dregs. That type of players has routinely kept dregs competitive and engaging for those players. Players who do not fit that mold either log out shortly after being deposited there, or stick around for a few months and then log out when it becomes clear they're not going to get anywhere unless they adopt that mold.

Shadows is an imperative not only for serving people that aren't willing to make long standing political bonds with massive alliances, but in order to form a farm system that creates new alliances to shake up its status quo.

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Posted (edited)

CF is in a unique and unfortunate situation where, by virtue of its innovation, it has a core design that divides its already niche player base. 

CF doesn't have the population to push both a faction based and guild based campaigns.  This is why, currently, the Infected is essentially reduced a leveling and tutorial zone where, in theory, "...new players [have] a chance to group up and meet new people while they take objectives and complete tasks." 

If CF becomes popular/populated enough, then multiple simultaneous game types could be a regular thing--BUT--how does it become popular enough without connecting with and retaining new players with game types that appeal to such players?    

Catch-22:  A problem, task, situation, or course of action in which the outcome or solution one desires is especially difficult or impossible to achieve due to contradictory, illogical, or paradoxical rules, regulations, or conditions.

Edited by Baomaug

“... [T]he pure light of chivalry... distinguishes the noble from the base, the gentle knight from the churl and the savage;... rates our life far, far beneath the pitch of our honour, raises us victorious over pain, toil, and suffering, and teaches us to fear no evil but disgrace.” --Walter Scott

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I'm actually going to be spinning up another "Wild Hunt" type of initiative next campaign. I've always wanted to start another one up and now I actually have the time to do it.

 

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10 hours ago, Baomaug said:

CF is in a unique and unfortunate situation where, by virtue of its innovation, it has a core design that divides its already niche player base. 

CF doesn't have the population to push both a faction based and guild based campaigns.  This is why, currently, the Infected is essentially reduced a leveling and tutorial zone where, in theory, "...new players [have] a chance to group up and meet new people while they take objectives and complete tasks." 

If CF becomes popular/populated enough, then multiple simultaneous game types could be a regular thing--BUT--how does it become popular enough without connecting with and retaining new players with game types that appeal to such players?    

Catch-22:  A problem, task, situation, or course of action in which the outcome or solution one desires is especially difficult or impossible to achieve due to contradictory, illogical, or paradoxical rules, regulations, or conditions.

I honestly don't believe this is true.

The people that would be sticking around in faction campaigns aren't actually playing dregs. They're simply not playing at all. The current design is dividing the player base in to "people that play crowfall" and "people that don't"

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25 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

I honestly don't believe this is true.

The people that would be sticking around in faction campaigns aren't actually playing dregs. They're simply not playing at all. The current design is dividing the player base in to "people that play crowfall" and "people that don't"

Yep, it is quite possible that if Shadows had been available for a long time now, the population of Crowfall would be much higher. The gap between Infected and Dregs drives people away. There might even be more Dregs pop, because people were able to get established in Shadows, stick around, join a guild, and start playing Dregs.

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56 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

I honestly don't believe this is true.

The people that would be sticking around in faction campaigns aren't actually playing dregs. They're simply not playing at all. The current design is dividing the player base in to "people that play crowfall" and "people that don't"

I am not sure what you are disagreeing with precisely, but CF doesn't have the population to push both game types currently.  If they had established a faction based PvP campaign (or if they do), perhaps more would be playing now--I would like to believe that more would.  However, there is nothing certain about that, and I am not convinced that would be the case.      

I assume that at least part (large part) of the reason ACE decided to go all in on HD is the fact that they recognize they need to introduce people to the game, without detracting from Dregs.  Therefore, they implemented a short duration, low population arena to accomplish just that.  At this moment, this is how they are choosing to deal with this catch-22, which stems from the core design of the game.  So, I think that the evidence points to my conclusion. 

That being said, when release happens and population peeks, it will be a make or break moment for CF.  Prior to release, I assume they will have a few campaign types to choose from, set up and ready to go to "catch" as many players as possible without making the whole experience overly confusing.  

“... [T]he pure light of chivalry... distinguishes the noble from the base, the gentle knight from the churl and the savage;... rates our life far, far beneath the pitch of our honour, raises us victorious over pain, toil, and suffering, and teaches us to fear no evil but disgrace.” --Walter Scott

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3 minutes ago, Baomaug said:

I am not sure what you are disagreeing with precisely, but CF doesn't have the population to push both game types currently.  If they had established a faction based PvP campaign (or if they do), perhaps more would be playing now--I would like to believe that more would.  However, there is nothing certain about that, and I am not convinced that would be the case.      

I assume that at least part (large part) of the reason ACE decided to go all in on HD is the fact that they recognize they need to introduce people to the game, without detracting from Dregs.  Therefore, they implemented a short duration, low population arena to accomplish just that.  At this moment, this is how they are choosing to deal with this catch-22, which stems from the core design of the game.  So, I think that the evidence points to my conclusion. 

That being said, when release happens and population peeks, it will be a make or break moment for CF.  Prior to release, I assume they will have a few campaign types to choose from, set up and ready to go to "catch" as many players as possible without making the whole experience overly confusing.  

I'm saying that's like opening a pizza shop and offering only pizza with pineapple. People who want pepperoni are not going to stay and eat the pineapple. They're going to go buy a pepperoni pizza somewhere else and aren't going to come back to your shop until you're selling them pepperoni. Saying you'll start selling pepperoni when enough people buy the pineapple isn't going to get them to come buy the pineapple. They're just not going to eat at your shop. The customers you already have are already happy with the pineapple. They're not going to suddenly abandon the pineapple because you start selling pepperoni. They may occasionally switch it up but by and large they're going to keep buying the pizza they already enjoy.

Your assumption rests on the idea that there's this massive player base that wants to play factions but is settling for dregs and that just doesn't seem to be true. The people playing dregs are pretty happy to playing dregs. The people who don't want to play dregs and want to play factions simply aren't playing at all.

The reason there isn't a customer base big enough to buy both extremely popular toppings is because they're not offering both of them. Having infected andexpecting that to carry the load is like saying "we have breadsticks" People didn't come to the pizza shop for an appetizer designed to prepare you for the pizza. They came for a pizza.

This isn't some esoteric niche game mode we're talking about here. Its a standard pvp setup implemented in pretty much every other competing product that has stood the test of time. Join a team of randos, fight the other teams of randos.

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1 hour ago, PopeUrban said:

Your assumption rests on the idea that there's this massive player base that wants to play factions but is settling for dregs and that just doesn't seem to be true. The people playing dregs are pretty happy to playing dregs. The people who don't want to play dregs and want to play factions simply aren't playing at all.

The reason there isn't a customer base big enough to buy both extremely popular toppings is because they're not offering both of them.

So, if ACE puts in a faction based campaign, a legit one (not a leveling zone), you are saying that will bring in new players who would not normally prefer gvg.  I am not arguing against that idea, in fact, I like the it and wish they would do so.  Although, I would note that ACE seems to think that HD is a more viable way forward, probably for similar reasons I suggested in my original post here. 

“... [T]he pure light of chivalry... distinguishes the noble from the base, the gentle knight from the churl and the savage;... rates our life far, far beneath the pitch of our honour, raises us victorious over pain, toil, and suffering, and teaches us to fear no evil but disgrace.” --Walter Scott

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9 hours ago, Baomaug said:

So, if ACE puts in a faction based campaign, a legit one (not a leveling zone), you are saying that will bring in new players who would not normally prefer gvg.  I am not arguing against that idea, in fact, I like the it and wish they would do so.  Although, I would note that ACE seems to think that HD is a more viable way forward, probably for similar reasons I suggested in my original post here. 

I don't think the intention with HD is to replace Faction vs. Faction or any other campaign. It's Crowfall's answer to the MMO Battleground, and has mostly been described as such in the Q&A sessions. The focus on HD that we're currently seeing is a marketing push. It's much easier to promote HD than it is to promote a a multi-week long campaign.

This might be short-sighted in the end, though, as it may just give people the wrong impression of the game. HD does kind of remove the Crowfall-ness from Crowfall in favor of a generic BR experience. I kinda wish they would have found a way to distill a campaign into a 30-45 minute experience with all the harvesting, crafting, building, siege, etc. that the full game has instead of going the BR route. Like an MMORPG inside a Team based FFA RTS match.

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On 5/1/2021 at 4:11 PM, Grivyn said:

We used to have Shadows as the default campaign, but then folks complained they didn't want "randoms" doing stuff in their keeps and the associated "alt" spying/sabotage issues and wanting to play to crush at all costs

 

Yes, it is true we wanted Dregs. Sadly, what we were presented with the Dregs release more than a year ago was very underwhelming to many of us who have been here for 5-6 years. I admit, I was pretty disappointed - especially by some keys things missing that seem obvious now - but would make Dregs much more playable, such as handshake sieges.

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11 hours ago, Baomaug said:

So, if ACE puts in a faction based campaign, a legit one (not a leveling zone), you are saying that will bring in new players who would not normally prefer gvg.  I am not arguing against that idea, in fact, I like the it and wish they would do so.  Although, I would note that ACE seems to think that HD is a more viable way forward, probably for similar reasons I suggested in my original post here. 

 

I'm a veteran player and I would rather play Infected as a campaign rather than the current version of Dregs.

Dregs takes too much work for the mere chance of fun. If there were a lot more people playing Dregs it wouldn't be so bad. Kind of a chicken and egg problem.

Understanding basic freedom of human choice would intuitively reveal that forcing people into Dregs to drive up numbers won't work if it isn't innately fun. People just go play something else. Dregs is only fun when there is lots of people to fight, primarily because IMHO the amount of work it takes to make yourself viable to win in a no-import Dregs. This also points out a core problem with the manner of winning in Dregs.

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16 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

I honestly don't believe this is true.

The people that would be sticking around in faction campaigns aren't actually playing dregs. They're simply not playing at all. The current design is dividing the player base in to "people that play crowfall" and "people that don't"

I counter that people just dont like the base game. period. Until ace goes back to original design or back to redesign nothing will help. not HD, not dregs, not factions, not any of the rulesets they have put forward in the past and not taken hold. 

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