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oridi

What Is The Point Of An Amazing Koster Crafting System If Resources Are Random And Impossible To Export?

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There's making a niche game and then there's making a game so niche that it goes out of business, because it isn't sustainable. We already know games like Shadowbane and Warhammer Online were financial failures, so no point in going that route again. 

 

Dem 7 year financial failures.


 

Sorry you turned into a two-bit carebear whose feelings get hurt over forum banter.

 

 

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Think about the logical extension to that.  Unless dreg players stop focusing on winning - which should take all their time and attention - and start focusing on harvesting resources and then fighting nonstop to keep them, very few if any resources are going to get out of the dregs. 

 

And you don't want that.  I know you think you may but you really don't want a stranglehold on resources because you want the great gear.  You want a flourishing economy and a constant flow of mats and resources to the EK and then distributed goods and gear. 

 

Because they can change the win conditions and if it turns out that the win conditions on the dregs are too hard for people to get resources off the planet - what do you think will happen to the win conditions? 

Pretty sure gathering resources is going to play a huge part in if you win or lose. You'll need resources to build up your keeps and fortifications as well as crafting gear. Part of wining will likely also include locking down resource nodes and factories. So its not an either or situation, gathering resources and winning goes hand and hand.

 

Also might be forgetting you can buy those resources from people who played and won on those Campaigns without ever needing to set foot in them yourself.

Edited by pang

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That's not true. There is no such thing as the "main game". It's just the game. Yes, PvP is generally the focus, but you can't pvp unless you get gear to fight with... which requires crafting... which requires resources. Everything is tied in together. Whether or not EK is worthwhile is still an open question. I used to think it was, but the stuff we learned at the end of the countdown has cast some doubt over the usefulness of EK. So, we'll see!

 

Bro, they specifically stated that the Campaigns will be the "MAIN GAME." If you dispute this then wow.... just wow.

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Oridi


The fact that it's random actually benefits you building your crafting business. You can have an actual "crafting" business and not a resource harvesting and transporting business.


 


You're going to have a lot of people uninterested in crafting exporting a lot of resources and materials they don't have anything to do with. They are going to bring those to you. You are going to craft them for them.


 


You don't have to do the collecting yourself. They will bring the resources to you. They want new armor. They bring you the resources they exported from their last campaign. You make it for them.



I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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Pretty sure gathering resources is going to play a huge part in if you win or lose. You'll need resources to build up your keeps and fortifications as well as crafting gear. Part of wining will likely also include locking down resource nodes and factories. So its not an either or situation, gathering resources and winning goes hand and hand.

 

Also might be forgetting you can buy those resources from people who played and won on those Campaigns without ever needing to set foot in them yourself.

 

Good points here too.  This leads me to ask, will The Dregs really be a last-man-standing type scenario?  Or will you be able to swear fealty to someone in the campaign and team-up to take your spoils out of the campaign?  Seems really hard for one man to build up his own keep, control his own quarry, etc.


 

Sorry you turned into a two-bit carebear whose feelings get hurt over forum banter.

 

 

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Good points here too.  This leads me to ask, will The Dregs really be a last-man-standing type scenario?  Or will you be able to swear fealty to someone in the campaign and team-up to take your spoils out of the campaign?  Seems really hard for one man to build up his own keep, control his own quarry, etc.

They mentioned somewhere that it'll be ffa / team up with your guild, I can't seem to find it anymore, but it seems odd..

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My assumption is that the export rules apply only to inventory. So any gear that is equipped can be taken out the campaign 100%.

 

With that assumption in mind, I don't see the issue. A lot of crafting will be done in campaigns. You make a new sword, equip it and you get to take it with you win or lose.

 

For the stuff in your inventory, if you know your guild/faction/whatever is going to lose, just toss out everything but the 20% you want to keep. 

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So many people still not realizing EK isn't even remotely part of the main game.

It will be for some people. Some people will be traders. They'll buy and sell stuff and never enter the campaigns. They'll spend their profits to build up their personal kingdom. That's a perfectly valid way to play if they choose to.

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I also see guilds working together on a "peace treaty" in these campaigns...

 

Meaning big guilds go to two different campaigns ( 2 campaigns, with two chars from both guilds)

 

Guild "x" wins campaign "1", and farms the hell out of it, while guild "y" does not attack, and loses campaign "1" on purpose...

 

And on campaign "2"....guild "y" farms the hell out of it, while guild "x" sits back and does nothing.

 

And if a guild "z" comes into the campaign.....both guilds x and y beat the hell out of them until they leave..

 

Both campaigns end.....guild x and y both take their loots home..

 

Rinse and repeat.....,


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I also see guilds working together on a "peace treaty" in these campaigns...

 

Meaning big guilds go to two different campaigns ( 2 campaigns, with two chars from both guilds)

 

Guild "x" wins campaign "1", and farms the hell out of it, while guild "y" does not attack, and loses campaign "1" on purpose...

 

And on campaign "2"....guild "y" farms the hell out of it, while guild "x" sits back and does nothing.

 

And if a guild "z" comes into the campaign.....both guilds x and y beat the hell out of them until they leave..

 

Both campaigns end.....guild x and y both take their loots home..

 

Rinse and repeat.....,

i hope they can prevent us from such thing via ip log or sth....... :-O

 

 

and in my opinion the first part of th egame will focus on Crafting and Mid to Lategame will be the fighting.... and the win is, who crafted most/best and /or got better teamplay...

 

just my opinion, we will see

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To be honest the idea the developers proposed may sound good on paper, but as the OP clearly pointed out with a hypothetical scenario it's is abundantly clear that their design plans appear to be at a blunderous fault.

 

I devise they need to go back to the drawing board and come up with a better system for resource allocation.

 

 

Already sounds like an exploit of gameplay balance waiting to happen simply because the developers "gameplay meta ideas" simply don't mesh well with a player driven economy.  They'd do well to seek advice from CCP and EVE fans because pretty sure they would be considered an authority on player run economies.  I get the feeling some of these game designers are a little too focused on their vision at the expense of praticality, to be frank and honest if they do this incorrectly not only will it be damaging to the overall nature of the game, it will in my opinion kill this game and drive away most of the people interested in playing.  When you devise a player run economy - "The Spice MUST Flow"

 

I can already see the problem with the system when I think about it in my head and boy is it such a blunder of epic proportions... it would be very difficult to fix without radically changing or completely throwing out their current planned system for resource allocation.

 

--This is my proposed solution for the developers below--

 

One possible solution is to instead of forcing resource allocation randomly or proportionately distributed at the end of each campaign, is to instead instigate real time effects on resource availability based on current control.  In other words - the yield value or the "richness value" of resources are directly or indirectly related.  Meaning based on the tier level and percentage granted per type - it effects the outcome of the amount of resources that are gathered from that source,  

 

e.g. 80% is recovered and 20% is lost while the other side gets 20% recovered and 80% lost based on current territorial control at the end of each day or week.  Not only does this solve the issue for dedicated industrialists.  It also in turn gives more reason for players to fight to the bitter end and adds validity to conflict beyound just having fun PvPing.

 

Not only does this resolve this problem, in turn it completely dissolves and removes RNG from the factorage, an element of gameplay which should not apply ever to core resources.

 

RNG for rare items is fine, but it shouldn't be applied ever to core materials needed for production of commodities commonly used in war.  For example, going back to EVE Online, almost all commodities for ships and tech one components come from common resources - these are mainly used to produce faction item in the game using loyalty points which are better or just as good as the RNG dependent tech 2 items - so they have their place and uses even though on their own pretty mundane, but even then serve the purpose as expendable items, for example - used for suicide ganks and by new bros etc.

 

RNG in EVE is fully exclusively segregated to named items which you can only get off RATs and Relic/Data sites and components used for making tech 2 and 3 items and ships.

 

In my opinion that's a good example of a good resource system.

 

The developers stated that in the closest circle, the Dregs where it's everyone for themselves and the only rules that apply are player applied, no player guild or group can set up their own resource gathering operation, can not construct defensive structures or systems and the only way you can gather those resources is on your own or with a group to watch your back,  you can be ganked and killed at any time and lose everything.  And once you gather your resources you have to get them out safely while at all times watching your back.

 

I know it sounds a lot like EVE but personally I think this system works and it's a good system.  It also adds a lot of value to such commodities.

 

The developers say they want players to have multiple professions with specialists and not everyone is a fighter, well it gives fighters a chance to get something out of it, by protecting industrialist interests and also gives rise to the opportunity of people who explore to gather resources at extreme risk for high rewards.

If the Dregs were like how Wormhole space works in EVE, that would be in my opinion fantastic, but at the same time - make it so there isn't the illusion you could be safe, you should never ever be safe there.

I disagree and agree with some parts.

 

I will start with the part i agree because i dont want to sound as an annoying person :P

I agree with the fact that it should not be RNG. Some items have more value then others. For example lets think of an sword. I might have carried that sword through all my battles and it might have been my best friend. Even if it does not hold economic value i miight want to bring it back and display it in the top of my castle.

 

From the other suggestions, i think ability to choose %20 value items from your inventory is a good decision.

 

Part i dont agree ;

e.g. 80% is recovered and 20% is lost while the other side gets 20% recovered and 80% lost based on current territorial control at the end of each day or week.  Not only does this solve the issue for dedicated industrialists.  It also in turn gives more reason for players to fight to the bitter end and adds validity to conflict beyound just having fun PvPing.

 

This part will cuase much more problems then the things it would solve. You will use those metarials to build and craft in the middle of campaings. Dont you think it would be pretty bad after all those fight and having no metariels in the hand at the end of the day? Even if they go to eternal kingdoms. You would lose the war inside campaign worlds in that case. And that would be even worser for themselves. What you bring back to eternal kingdom is what you could accomplish at the end of the campaign. But the real game will go on campaign worlds not eternal kingdoms. That would turn the focus into carriying resources back to eternal kingdoms.

 

Also ;

Daily recovery system will decrease the value of strategizing and planning. If i made plans and calculations for whole month, to secure the last day of the campaign. It should work and reward me. But in this case my reward would only be 1/30 of the real reward. Even though the fact i outplayed all my opponents in the end. This also goes aganist the intensity system. Everything will become more intense as seasons pass, resources become rarer. Guilds will stop making alliances, wars will start. Feeling of survival... But with this system everyone will just want campaign to end after winter as its pointless to continue

Edited by Navhkrin

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You're right, this will be a balancing act.  We haven't locked down exactly how the export rules are going to work, and I would be very shocked if we nail it exactly on our first try.  On the good side, we have the ability to tweak this constantly, as new Campaigns come online.

 

That said, I can tell from your examples ("what if I want to join a Campaign and not participate, just get resources?" and "can we have a Campaign that lasts 1-2 day days where you just give us materials?" defeats the point of the symbiotic relationship between the Campaign rules and the Economy system.  If we didn't want you to have to rely on the Campaigns, we would just spawn materials on the EK and be done with it.  If we didn't want the Campaign PvP players to have to rely on crafters, we would just drop the best items as loot.

 

The system is designed to force interaction with other players.  That's the point.  if it is too heavily weighted in one way or the other, then obviously, we'll fix that.  We need a reasonable flow of supply and demand in both directions.

 

To answer your question, "what do I have to offer?" the answer is : crafted goods, obviously!  If you are a great crafter, then you have a strong hand to bargain with.  if not, then, then you suffer from the same fate as someone who is BAD campaigner, and as a result has a hard time compelling crafters to sell him any goods.

 

You're also forgetting that crafters will be necessary WITHIN the Campaigns, as well. You can always hire your services out, or take more risks in deeper Worlds to get more rewards.

 

As for item export, one clarification: it uses the inventory SYSTEM (the same way that banking in a traditional MMO uses the inventory system, i.e. the same icons, stacking rules and grid UI for item management) but that doesn't mean it's actually the same container as your inventory.  The rules that we use to decide which of your scavenged items are kept (or lost) hasn't been strictly defined yet and we are definitely open to ideas on allowing some degree of choice... so long as the basic idea remains the same: Campaign winners get more, the Campaign losers get less, and that you get more rewards for participating in the "deeper" Campaign worlds.  Higher Risk= Higher Reward.

 

Todd

ACE


J Todd Coleman

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.

Follow us on Twitter @CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook

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Can't the crafters just go into the campaigns, partner up with a guild, and craft in the campaigns with resources all around them?  I'm sure we can build crafting stations in the player made cities. 

 

The character's crafting progress and recipe accumulation are permanent. 

 

My plan is to go into the campaigns and craft the hell out of things.  In the EK, people can bring me their resources and I'll craft for a fee.  In the campaigns, I'll do it for free most likely as resources should be plentiful.

 

I think people are looking at this wrong if all you're concerned about is the resources you can't take out of a campaign and into the EK.  Go into the campaigns, get the resources to expand your recipe list, and when you exit the campaign you're vastly richer just off that.  Now, go to the EK, mind a market spot, and sell your ability to craft a unique product.  People will come.  People will provide the resources.  People will pay.

 

I understand what you're saying but I don't think it actually will play out as balanced as you're making it sound.

 

In the campaigns the focus will be on keeping my guild geared and ready.  I'm not going to have tons of time to experiment and if you take a look at the Koster crafting it's quite close so far to the SWG system of resources being the main reason for a quality result with the skill of the crafter coming in at a close second.

 

I played SWG and got to the top of my game in crafting.  It was not a matter of just upping my skills via time and repetition.  It was also a huge amount of experimentation and failure, I had to LEARN how to craft within the specific system at the time and it was tough to do. 

 

I'm not seeing a lot of time for trial and error on the campaign worlds.  I'm already going to be fighting just to get to where resources are, to hold the spot long enough to acquire them, then fight to keep them.  I'm not even talking about trying to win the campaigns here - just trying to get the dang resources.  Then I have to gear up my guild and keep them regeared as they fight.   There's no time in there for learning.

 

Where I have time and peace to learn is in the EK.  The devs have made it pretty clear how dynamic and pressured the inner worlds are and I believe them.  The EK is where I see myself learning and experimenting since I won't be frantically keeping up with the immediate needs of my guild.

 

I'm not even going into the resources needed to build buildings or cities or trade hubs on EK.

 

I don't see my crafting abilities being developed well enough in the campaigns to be of a high enough quality for me to sell my services.  Not enough time and focus there for learning and experimentation.


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The Chronicles of Crowfall           The Free Lands of Azure            RIP Doc Gonzo.

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FYI, I almost didn't reply to this thread because of the hyperbolic title.  Where in the FAQ does it state that items will be "impossible to export"?

 

In the future you guys will notice that, more and more, I will only reply to threads that I feel will lead to reasonable discussion and respectful debate.  

 

The reason for this is simple: over many, many years of doing this, I have learned that "what I reply to" correlates strongly with "what I get more of, in the future."

 

To be clear: I'm not saying the title or the tone of this thread was terrible!  Many of your points were invalid, and your questions quite reasonable.  That is why I replied.  

 

I'm just letting you because there is a method to my madness when it comes to which threads I choose to engage in.  Hopefully that will help you guys be better able to predict our behavior and get the answers you want, going forward.

 

Todd

ACE


J Todd Coleman

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.

Follow us on Twitter @CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook

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FYI, I almost didn't reply to this thread because of the hyperbolic title.  Where in the FAQ does it state that items will be "impossible to export"?

 

In the future you guys will notice that, more and more, I will only reply to threads that I feel will lead to reasonable discussion and respectful debate.  

 

The reason for this is simple: over many, many years of doing this, I have learned that "what I reply to" correlates strongly with "what I get more of, in the future."

 

To be clear: I'm not saying the title or the tone of this thread was terrible!  Many of your points were invalid, and your questions quite reasonable.  That is why I replied.  

 

I'm just letting you because there is a method to my madness when it comes to which threads I choose to engage in.  Hopefully that will help you guys be better able to predict our behavior and get the answers you want, going forward.

 

Todd

ACE

 

Quick Summary:

 

He doesn't want to feed the trolls. 


Intellectual honesty is an applied method of problem solving, characterized by an unbiased, honest attitude, which can be demonstrated in a number of different ways:

  • One's personal beliefs do not interfere with the pursuit of truth;
  • Relevant facts and information are not purposefully omitted even when such things may contradict one's hypothesis;
  • Facts are presented in an unbiased manner, and not twisted to give misleading impressions or to support one view over another;
  • References, or earlier work, are acknowledged where possible, and plagiarism is avoided.

 

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