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Ventured into the Dregs for the first time as I'd heard it was the place to earn the gold I need for upgrades.  Turns out it's not.  Once you factor in the increased mob difficulty and the need to down tools every once in a while to avoid the gank squads, it's way slower than Infected.  I am getting about 50-80 gold per mob in Dregs and 30-50ish in Infected.  Per hour I am getting at least double the gold in Infected.  Someone said they have nerfed drops in the Dregs.  I guess it's possible that a lvl 35 character with aoe damage could clean up in the Dregs - but not so for a new arrival.

Am struggling to see a way forward as the gold grind is getting old.

 

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In the Q&A they mentioned on stream steps they would prolly take IN INFECTED and admitted he messed up by too much population subdivsion.  They talked about why having a permanent guild vs guild c

This is the corner you paint yourself into via game design when your incentives to go to a zone are gear progression based instead of fun based.  Dark Age of Camelot, Warhammer Online, Elder Scrolls O

Thanks for the replies. Just thought I would add that for a player that is lvl 30 and is just starting to upgrade discs and belts/toolkits, the only thing Dregs can offer is gold.  Without those

2 minutes ago, Xbenedict said:

Ventured into the Dregs for the first time as I'd heard it was the place to earn the gold I need for upgrades.  Turns out it's not.  Once you factor in the increased mob difficulty and the need to down tools every once in a while to avoid the gank squads, it's way slower than Infected.  I am getting about 50-80 gold per mob in Dregs and 30-50ish in Infected.  Per hour I am getting at least double the gold in Infected.  Someone said they have nerfed drops in the Dregs.  I guess it's possible that a lvl 35 character with aoe damage could clean up in the Dregs - but not so for a new arrival.

Am struggling to see a way forward as the gold grind is getting old.

 

Dregs is a very dangerous zone to attempt to do solo, especially at lower levels. I'm level 33, almost 34 and it's the ONLY area where I can level, so I go there solo. If I could get XP in Sky Point, I'd be there.

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4 hours ago, MacDeath said:

Dregs is a very dangerous zone to attempt to do solo, especially at lower levels. I'm level 33, almost 34 and it's the ONLY area where I can level, so I go there solo. If I could get XP in Sky Point, I'd be there.

people actually grind mobs to level? 30->33 sac items. 
Guildie got new vessels and wants to level, dumped sac items on him 30->33

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34 minutes ago, TrullsRohk said:

people actually grind mobs to level? 30->33 sac items. 
Guildie got new vessels and wants to level, dumped sac items on him 30->33

Yep works to 33

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7 hours ago, Xbenedict said:

Ventured into the Dregs for the first time as I'd heard it was the place to earn the gold I need for upgrades.  Turns out it's not.  Once you factor in the increased mob difficulty and the need to down tools every once in a while to avoid the gank squads, it's way slower than Infected.  I am getting about 50-80 gold per mob in Dregs and 30-50ish in Infected.  Per hour I am getting at least double the gold in Infected.  Someone said they have nerfed drops in the Dregs.  I guess it's possible that a lvl 35 character with aoe damage could clean up in the Dregs - but not so for a new arrival.

Am struggling to see a way forward as the gold grind is getting old.

 

Getting old and >>> boring <<<.

Crowfall needs to figure this out.

My idea of fun is not walking pigs across map, crafting, gathering or boring pve encounters for solo players.

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It's definitely dawned on me that if -

you are solo -> farm gold in Infected

if you have a group of 4+ people, farm gold in Dregs

---

With how low population is, it doesn't seem all that surprising that it is better to farm gold in Infected. I use to brainstorm ways to encourage people not to farm in Infected, but I do it myself. My guild is rarely playing in Dregs right now.

I guess the better solution is to make Dregs more fun and worth the effort even for solo people, and much more so to get more people in general to play?

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3 minutes ago, DocHollidaze said:

I guess the better solution is to make Dregs more fun and worth the effort even for solo people, and much more so to get more people in general to play?

A general rule they should follow: what we want should be in Dregs and where we want it should be in infected (or outside Dregs). This is their optimal solution for imports/exports gameloop. Currently, they have it so Dregs is the only source for basically oranges and that's it, infected is superior in all ways bc there is zero risk except time loss.

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4 minutes ago, McTan said:

A general rule they should follow: what we want should be in Dregs and where we want it should be in infected (or outside Dregs). This is their optimal solution for imports/exports gameloop. Currently, they have it so Dregs is the only source for basically oranges and that's it, infected is superior in all ways bc there is zero risk except time loss.

 

I wonder why they still have kings/chiefs, and nodes up to rank 6 - spawn in Infected.

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45 minutes ago, McTan said:

A general rule they should follow: what we want should be in Dregs and where we want it should be in infected (or outside Dregs). This is their optimal solution for imports/exports gameloop. Currently, they have it so Dregs is the only source for basically oranges and that's it, infected is superior in all ways bc there is zero risk except time loss.

I dont think there is a working game loop involving import/exports at this time. To be fair, how can their be with no main hub, no central trade, ect. With little reason to be invested in dregs why even gear up for it? To get exports for the next dregs you wont really play since your not in that 'window' for siege play? Now thats a working loop, not beneficial to the game, but working nonetheless. 

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18 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

I dont think there is a working game loop involving import/exports at this time.

Get better stuff in one Dregs so you can import it to the next Dregs. How is that not a working game loop?

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Posted (edited)

Thanks for the replies.

Just thought I would add that for a player that is lvl 30 and is just starting to upgrade discs and belts/toolkits, the only thing Dregs can offer is gold.  Without those upgrades, the resource nodes are too high for us.  Necromancy is gated for solo players (as motherlodes contain some of the required mats) so gathering exp for lvls 30-33 is not possible.

I found in Dregs I could escape gankers as an assassin, but my gold gathering speed was really slow.  I doubt it would be viable at all without stealth.

The cost of upgrading a single belt or toolkit is maybe 3 days grinding the same camps in Infected over and over.  No fun at all.

People say a guild is the answer, but that will not increase the gold yield or bridge the content gap between Dregs and Infected.  Also, I get a big chunk of my game satisfaction from seeing personal progress.  Being handed a whole lot of help or free stuff so that my character can function in the Dregs (if that is how guilds help) would just feel like a cheat, or as if I had just skipped a huge chunk of the game.  That is my own problem of course.

I thought maybe trading in Free City would offer another way to make gold, but went there and it seemed dead.

Anyway, think I will take a break and see if it improves by launch.

Edited by Xbenedict
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, McTan said:

A general rule they should follow: what we want should be in Dregs and where we want it should be in infected (or outside Dregs). This is their optimal solution for imports/exports gameloop. Currently, they have it so Dregs is the only source for basically oranges and that's it, infected is superior in all ways bc there is zero risk except time loss.

This is the corner you paint yourself into via game design when your incentives to go to a zone are gear progression based instead of fun based.  Dark Age of Camelot, Warhammer Online, Elder Scrolls Online, Guild Wars 2.  Know what these games all have i common?  They rewards you for PVPing and they don't make you lose your inventory on death.  You could level and live exclusively off of PVP if you wanted to because those games provided for it.  At a disadvantage starting out?  Sure.  But it was doable.  You could fully gear up just via drops, money earned, PVP currency, etc from pure PVP and there was a secondary system in each game that levels only from PVP.  Realm Points, Alliance Points, Renown, WVW Experience.  DAOC is the much beloved grandaddy of the RVR genre, Warhammer was screwed over by EA and killed but had a resurgence after getting it's own private servers, ESO and GW2 are both very successful.  What they all had in common is that you COULD PVE if you wanted to, but if you just wanted to PVP then you could PVP without needing to jump through a ton of hoops.

Crowfall is not that.  Crowfall has a crapton of enforced PVE for a PVP game and if you don't do it you're at a severe disadvantage and you receive almost no rewards ever.  The game actively rewards PVE and farming far more than it has ever dreamed of rewarding PVP and even the small amount of existing PVP rewards are rewards generated via someone else's PVE.  In fact the game actively discourages PVP since losing in PVP will cause you to lose durability or your inventory.  Much more efficient to avoid PVP and farm some lucrative mobs or harvesting.  Only time PVP is rewarding is ganking people with overwehlming odds and stealing their stuff...but never would you want to have any real fight.  That leads to durability loss and inventory loss.  DAOC had a durability system but it never felt like something I'd potentially consider before taking a fight like I do in Crowfall.  And never was I like "well I've accumulated X gold while out here, I better avoid all fighting to go deposit this so i wont lose it!".

I feel like it's completely backwards way of designing a PVP game.

Edited by Ralathar44
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23 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

This is the corner you paint yourself into via game design when your incentives to go to a zone are gear progression based instead of fun based.  Dark Age of Camelot, Warhammer Online, Elder Scrolls Online, Guild Wars 2.  Know what these games all have i common?  They rewards you for PVPing and they don't make you lose your inventory on death.  You could level and live exclusively off of PVP if you wanted to because those games provided for it.  At a disadvantage starting out?  Sure.  But it was doable.  You could fully gear up just via drops, money earned, PVP currency, etc from pure PVP and there was a secondary system in each game that levels only from PVP.  Realm Points, Alliance Points, Renown, WVW Experience.  DAOC is the much beloved grandaddy of the RVR genre, Warhammer was screwed over by EA and killed but had a resurgence after getting it's own private servers, ESO and GW2 are both very successful.  What they all had in common is that you COULD PVE if you wanted to, but if you just wanted to PVP then you could PVP without needing to jump through a ton of hoops.

Crowfall is not that.  Crowfall has a crapton of enforced PVE for a PVP game and if you don't do it you're at a severe disadvantage and you receive almost no rewards ever.  The game actively rewards PVE and farming far more than it has ever dreamed of rewarding PVP and even the small amount of existing PVP rewards are rewards generated via someone else's PVE.  In fact the game actively discourages PVP since losing in PVP will cause you to lose durability or your inventory.  Much more efficient to avoid PVP and farm some lucrative mobs or harvesting.  Only time PVP is rewarding is ganking people with overwehlming odds and stealing their stuff...but never would you want to have any real fight.  That leads to durability loss and inventory loss.  DAOC had a durability system but it never felt like something I'd potentially consider before taking a fight like I do in Crowfall.  And never was I like "well I've accumulated X gold while out here, I better avoid all fighting to go deposit this so i wont lose it!".

I feel like it's completely backwards way of designing a PVP game.

PvP for PvPs sake is fun, for sure. It is a model that works. There is another model that works, which is PvP for conquest's sake. That's the throne war simulator I was hoping for, to be the spiritual successor to Shadowbane. It is painting into a corner in the sense that it requires commitment and coherence in all aspects of the game, but Crowfall hasn't achieved that yet.

We need a home that we care about and fight for, that takes a lot of time and effort to build. After that, inventory loss is a completely sensible mechanic, wherein you described the risk/reward tension that can exist when you think "well I've accumulated X gold while out here, I better avoid all fighting to go deposit this so i wont lose it!" because there is a flipside to that coin, where people hunt farmers and gathers in order to stifle their enemies. It's not a fundamentally broken concept, but it is different than instanced PvP arenas and the like.

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19 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

 Know what these games all have i common?

They are themepark games with questing, lore, leveling, gear grind progression? 

24 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

Crowfall is not that.  Crowfall has a crapton of enforced PVE for a PVP game and if you don't do it you're at a severe disadvantage and you receive almost no rewards ever. The game actively rewards PVE and farming far more than it has ever dreamed of rewarding PVP and even the small amount of existing PVP rewards are rewards generated via someone else's PVE. 

Oh I agree they put so much pve grind and based pvp on pve activities that it broke their original design. It common knowledge that players doing PvE grinding will avoid PvP with inventory drop out of simple efficiency. They could have based PvP upon, oh I dont know... Fekking Throne War maybe? 

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1 hour ago, Jah said:

Get better stuff in one Dregs so you can import it to the next Dregs. How is that not a working game loop?

As I said, why would you do that if you played outside the small siege window? So grind gear to get better gear to grind more gear to get better. We need more activities, but ace said no, whatever, its their project to fail.

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1 minute ago, mystafyi said:

They are themepark games with questing, lore, leveling, gear grind progression? 

lol DAOC a theme park game :D.  That's a good one.  WAR/ESO/GW2 are in reality multiple games.  There is the theme park and there is the RVR modes.  They each can stand independently, in Crowfall terms you could think of them as separate worlds with different rulesets where you can import gear back and forth if you wished.  Iou could do the RVR modes without ever doing any real PVE or quest lines or themepark or etc.  I know because I test ran pure PVP characters on each of them and they were all viable as pure PVP from within the first hour of play.  That's not what I'd call a themepark experience.

TBH Crowfall has more gear grind progression than GW2 or DAOC, certainly more than they did at release.  Getting a single crafter to top tier gear in Crowfall takes forever and you need many. GW2's gear ramp was super fast and DAOC's was player crafting dominated but without all the eons of farming since you could just get money via RVR. 

 

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, McTan said:

PvP for PvPs sake is fun, for sure. It is a model that works. There is another model that works, which is PvP for conquest's sake. That's the throne war simulator I was hoping for, to be the spiritual successor to Shadowbane. It is painting into a corner in the sense that it requires commitment and coherence in all aspects of the game, but Crowfall hasn't achieved that yet.

We need a home that we care about and fight for, that takes a lot of time and effort to build. After that, inventory loss is a completely sensible mechanic, wherein you described the risk/reward tension that can exist when you think "well I've accumulated X gold while out here, I better avoid all fighting to go deposit this so i wont lose it!" because there is a flipside to that coin, where people hunt farmers and gathers in order to stifle their enemies. It's not a fundamentally broken concept, but it is different than instanced PvP arenas and the like.

I mean DAOC was literally known for what you describe.  "Realm Pride".  Without any need for dropped gear on death or custom built keeps.

The way they established this is that each of the sides was very different and could not talk to each other.  Each side had it's own unique set of classes and races that did overlap in core roles but were all unique and each had alot of unique stuff.  And you fought for control of castles and towers and etc for personal wealth and glory and for the sake of your realm.  They tied it all together in great synergy.


But yeah, if everyone is one homogeneous mass and nobody actually gives a shizzle about their side then ofc the only thing you have to fight over is stuff.  Because the game doesn't establish any real identity to anyone.  There is never instilled a sake of our comrades vs the enemies.  We decide all of that on our own via guilds and....it's just not the same as having the faction lines and lore and very real gameplay/class/race/playstyle differences baked into the sides.

Instead of all fighting for a realm, our homeland, and our comrades in arms we're all basically just a buncha poorly made dergsty mercenaries really.

Edited by Ralathar44
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11 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

As I said, why would you do that if you played outside the small siege window? So grind gear to get better gear to grind more gear to get better. We need more activities, but ace said no, whatever, its their project to fail.

If you only care about siege, and can't play during siege windows, that would be a pretty big problem. Not sure what that has to do with the import/export game loop, though.

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3 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

lol DAOC a theme park game :D.  That's a good one. 

Out of your list i didnt play daoc :) 

6 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

GW2's gear ramp was super fast and DAOC's was player crafting dominated but without all the eons of farming since you could just get money via RVR. 

ESO gear is simple and fast, I cant remember GW2 gearing so it must have been simple. 

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Siege activities withstanding, the emphasis on mindless grinding really just doesn't make sense to me. Making everything feel like work is one way to make sure your economy doesn't implode, I guess. But everything right now feels like it drives players to avoid conflict instead of pushing players into conflict for fun and rewards. At best, you're doing PvP to ... have the right to farm mobs? At worst, you're actively trying to avoid other players.

I get the need for PvE elements in an open-world PvP MMORPG to ensure a kind of minimum level of engagement at low-pop times. When done well, it can also create some unique PvP experiences. But right now the focus seems totally backwards: avoid players, farm mobs/resources/pigs, stealth cap outposts. I think the problem is partly having these activities essentially BE the objectives instead of happening in the course of completing competitive objectives. I also think it's problematic to have these activities be the main route toward rewards and progress; example, I have to get gold to do any number of other things, and the only realistic way to do that is grind PvE mobs, and not participate in competitive PvP events.

I think Events and Hot Zones have the potential to improve this, but it can't simply be that mobs/nodes in an area of the map drop 2x loot. Farming mobs/resources shouldn't be the objective. These need to be some kind of fun competitive minigame/objective, and, oh ya by the way, you're killing mobs and collecting resources while doing the activity. They also need to be tuned correctly to make sure that enough players are brought into an area for a long enough time that they can't avoid interacting. This is one of the reasons Chiefs don't really work; a group can kill the chief, have a guinea loot it, and disappear before ever seeing another group.

I also think, unfortunately, that winner-take-all, full inventory loot is not good for the game. I get that this is one of those controversial things that get people up in arms about not being hardcore enough. However, full inventory loot reinforces a lot of negative gameplay behaviors. It encourages players to avoid confrontation. The risk vs. reward tends to be one sided toward the person that is looking to just gank. You can try to bank very often to avoid losing your progress, but then you spend a lot of your play session running between banking locations. This isn't enjoyable, it's not efficient, and it encourages people to camp banks. Is that the pinnacle of Crowfall PvP? So, one of the common solutions is just go stealth. Is this good for the game though? I guess it's poetic that we're all just guineas passing in the night. I think 50% loot would feel better: 50% of all stacked items drops, and a coin toss on any non-stackable items. I think this ensures a kind of minimum reward for time invested, which is also good for driving engagement in PvP oriented Events and Hot Zones.

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