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Chaos Embers to Domination Dust


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I agree 100%.

I am trying out this game because I quite like the crafting systems. It makes me sad that its all reduced to "farm gold". So you'll be spending 90% of your time grinding mobs, so you can upgrade your crafting tools. Its a crafters nightmare come to life.

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Posted (edited)

I agree too it's a nice idea to give multiple way for a player to progress. 
 

Edited by royo
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After doing a nominal amount of farming on dregs as well I think I've settled that a rate of 5 chaos embers to 1 domination dust would be the way to go. 

Their drop rate is consistent enough that gathering 15 chaos embers is a goal rather then a challenge and can be done more reasonably by people who only have 2 or 3 hours to play a day without breaking their personal bank. 

With the doing away of passive time training I really do think there needs to be less time investment for the initial getting started part of the game.

 

Sure I'm all for some grind at mid to late game no issue, but scaring people away before they even know the benefits as to why they're trying to improve is unfortunate. 

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The funny thing is you get gold through combat (with mobs) but you don't need gold to upgrade combat disciplines. You need gold to upgrade crafting and harvesting discipline, but you don't get enough gold crafting and harvesting while you're leveling even if you sell everything you get (to vendors because nobody will buy those low level items). :D

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1 hour ago, Extintor said:

The funny thing is you get gold through combat (with mobs) but you don't need gold to upgrade combat disciplines.

You really do need gold to upgrade combat disciplines. While the domination dust isn't used in the upgrade recipe, it is used to craft the discs that you will use to upgrade.

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Posted (edited)

In all reality this conversation is ultimately about the fact that gold is both 'Too useful' and terribly useless.

The existing gold sinks in the game are domination dust, vendors, and stone-masonry. Vendors only work for people who already have established EKs and come launch will be a VIP Exclusive thing, Stone-masonry is not a solo player thing, the gold sink recipes are explicitly designed to be guild undertakings.

If the game needs to have gold sinks, put them into fort upgrades, put them into gate locking building upgrading, put them into investments in a campaign rather then being the exclusive method of upgrading for gatherers and crafters who really have no interest in gold farming for hours on end.

There is absolutely 0 early game economy because everyone has identified that to get better stuff they'll need to craft it in one way or another and they either will hoard their gold to make alt crafters for that purpose or join a guild where in there are dedicated crafters to help raise them up already. If they join a guild, great. If they want to at least try to solo it just a bit, maybe make some potions and try to sell them in the world, they get to eat poorly made dergs with a side of wild rice because gold is simply too valuable to be spent on anything except making the stuff yourself.

I hear alot of 'Just Farm It', Sure, you can manage 9-12k an hour in infected if your not spending time crowflying constantly, you can get around 18k an hour (taken from the three times I've actually managed to survive an hour without a random herald spawning ontop of me) over in dregs but itll mostly take a 2 or 3 man group if you're a new guild just starting out.

In reality, a player needs around 60-70k before they'll actually start enjoying what they're doing. Whether that is is built around them upgrading both a harvesting disc/belt and a crafting disk/belt  and then buying the subsequent supplies so they can actually craft something or just spent on the split between 20k for their crafting belt and 12k/48k for a rare/epic gathering rune (Its common suggestion to skip rare gathering at this point and go straight for advanced runetools, so thats another issue that should be addressed) a player is gonna be staring down the barrel of a lot of gathering time before they even begin to touch the crafting system in a way that they wont be making stuff far worse then most warcamp drops. On the above number, I added in the gold I used to buy the components from a few people who undercharged me immensely that allowed me to get up to a green crafting, blue crafting belt, epic gathering, green gathering belt.

I also get bent that the reward for the #1 conquest spot on dregs includes 170k, that's enough for 3 epic gathering runes, that's enough to get 3 people up to the starting line to participate in dregs and be able to gather because intermediate tools do not do the job.

Grind is fine, but let the gatherers and people who want to be loot pinatas BE LOOT PINATAS.

And don't get me started on the sell back rate for crafted items to vendors, its consistently based on just the material component cost in crafting the thing. The game is non-subtly telling me 'Go sell that to someone else, I don't want it' but when there's no market in person to person unless you get lucky with a commission or do necromancy with a guild supporting you to source minerals. (BTW ambrosia should just take 'minerals' not the two specific ones, at least at early levels, feel free to make an adjustment for 'refined ambrosia for rare+.)

I enjoyed the old talks of a resource based economy and I was disappointed that Ace didn't think it could work and introduced gold. But if gold is here to stay It CANNOT stay in its current iteration of investment versus time, especially if you actually want people playing in the dregs and not having to come back to infected to find pvp.

Sorry if I sound aggressive about this, but its incredibly frustrating to me, a player who wants to play the market warfare game play that this game has built into its design. Its there, Ive played it.

I'm not asking the world, just an alternate progression path that doesn't require mindlessly grinding warcamps well past the point you hit level 30, let us grind resource nodes, make loot pinatas and make non basic resources plentiful enough that people have incentive to sell them when someone offers to buy. Chaos dust doesn't drop all that often in infected and it drops a 'decent' rate in dregs, but that decent drop rate is gated behind the advanced rune tools barrier which is fine if people are able to harvest up a storm on infected, flood the market with low crafted goods and actually get people interested in a person to person interactive market and playstyle.
 

Edited by Altybear
Discovered the profanity filter and felt it lessened the message to randomly see the word 'custard' at points of emphasis.
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7 minutes ago, Altybear said:

There is absolutely 0 early game economy because everyone has identified that to get better stuff they'll need to craft it in one way or another and they either will hoard their gold to make alt crafters for that purpose or join a guild where in there are dedicated crafters to help raise them up already. If they join a guild, great. If they want to at least try to solo it just a bit, maybe make some potions and try to sell them in the world, they get to eat poorly made dergs with a side of wild rice because gold is simply too valuable to be spent on anything except making the stuff yourself.

You would be surprised at the percentage of players who will dump all their gold for personal gain vs progressing their guild.  Early crafting is white vessels, white weapons and harvester armour.   The market is there if someone is willing to spend the time to capitalize on it.

As for your premise of this thread, i think 15 Chaos embers per domination dust is an adequate trade.  for harvesters and crafters, Time is the most valuable currency.  Getting a much less efficient path towards paying for your upgrade progression at the expense of a valuable resource would still be a huge boon just for the time saved from having to stop farming raw materials for mob grinding.  It wont be game changing and won't devalue how much gold is a gold sink.  War tribes is still more efficient for that path.

unrelated but i do believe chaos embers need to be tied into respecs too

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26 minutes ago, neven said:

You would be surprised at the percentage of players who will dump all their gold for personal gain vs progressing their guild.  Early crafting is white vessels, white weapons and harvester armour.   The market is there if someone is willing to spend the time to capitalize on it.

As for your premise of this thread, i think 15 Chaos embers per domination dust is an adequate trade.  for harvesters and crafters, Time is the most valuable currency.  Getting a much less efficient path towards paying for your upgrade progression at the expense of a valuable resource would still be a huge boon just for the time saved from having to stop farming raw materials for mob grinding.  It wont be game changing and won't devalue how much gold is a gold sink.  War tribes is still more efficient for that path.

unrelated but i do believe chaos embers need to be tied into respecs too

I very much agree that the chaos dust method should be the sub optimal way compared to just gold farming, but the added influx of lower end mats to help bolster a raw economy would be a great tradeoff. 

I would need to compare notes with more gatherers as I suggested 5 earlier but that is with the intent of getting up to epic for gathering as quickly as possible. 

Put advanced rune tools equip on Rare gathering discs instead of epic and the 10-15 range becomes much more reasonable. 

A big part of this suggestion is to get newer guilds dregs capable a little faster. Even if Shadows comes soon, I imagine the upper end will be rank 6-7 nodes which still benefit greatly from even white decently statted advanced tools. 

Ok the runetools side of things, advanced runetools will likely be a runecrafters #1 progression item for disc drops so making them useful earlier will allow a starting crafter to advance sooner. 

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3 minutes ago, Altybear said:

A big part of this suggestion is to get newer guilds dregs capable a little faster.

i disagree with this part, chaos embers are not supposed to be a faster route, they drop way too slow for this.  This is more of a change for smaller groups who can't afford the time away from gathering/grinding discs to farm the necessary gold,  It may save them a handful of hours of war-tribe farming per upgrade, but not much more.  New guilds barrier to entry into dregs isn't the speed their crafters are progressing, its their ignorance of the game and biting off more than they can chew.

Don't forget that once someone has an Epic craft disc, they can use the factory table and buy a non copy item from someone willing to sell, so they can make high end items without the progression needed to do it themselves yet.  Its a good stop gap until the resources are there for them to catch up.

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Huh, well glad that I just discovered the qualifications to use factories. It was probably in the patch notes and I just missed it. 

The game is pushing you into dregs in the current iteration regardless of whether you're guild is ready or not. The foremen disc is a good example of this. With a group of 4 players taking down a rank 2 motherload is a pain without a foremen. Foremen can only be gotten in the dregs campaign right now. 

Also I'm not talking about crafter progression speed in reference to dregs, I'm explicitly talking about gatherers and the necessity of advanced runetools. If you are I'm dregs then you should be able to utilize as much as possible. That means pvp and the gathering pve content. 

The minor difference in hours grinding really could be the straw that breaks the camels back when a person gets to dregs and gets rolled by a lvl 33 who's far better equipped. 

Also if the factory is going to become a problem like that, just make bottled steam difficult to acquire. Let the spam crafting of low level gear be done by low level crafters, use the factory for mid level gear to outfit the masses of guilds, and custom craft the high tier stuff for the guilds primary groups, hell factory that too just increase the durability drain on it in scaling with rarity of items used so theres a sweet spot in the mid tier gear and high tier gear can still be copied but not in extensive amounts. 

That's a passing thought, obviously I haven't tested the factories in their current iteration so the above is baseless first thought. 

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I agree with most of what is in this thread.

However, there is an important part that is being missed here, IMO. Currently, its a great day to have 50+ players online in Infected. With that number, gold grinding in Skypoint is almost impossible, unless you're ready to fight off guilds to camp a village. We'll just accept the fact that players come to PvP in Skypoint, so even slower gold mining. Then you move to the next closest zone, say Yarog. Even there, its common for most of the villages to be camped by other players who are gold grinding. So the game itself is already capped in how much gold can be grinded by players, because there are almost no places to grind left on any normal day. What happens when you have 300 players? 1000 players? Its going to be a battle of those who stay (and don't get anywhere fast), and those who get annoyed and quit (the majority).

I agree very much with the sentiment of lowering the barrier to getting into Dregs (and being productive). Guilds will then be much more incentivized to help new players skill up a bit, so they can pull them into Dregs. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/10/2021 at 5:53 AM, ZippyNoodles said:

I agree 100%.

I am trying out this game because I quite like the crafting systems. It makes me sad that its all reduced to "farm gold". So you'll be spending 90% of your time grinding mobs, so you can upgrade your crafting tools. Its a crafters nightmare come to life.

i stopped playing when they removed the passive skill system came back 2 days ago,i'm convinced at this point they are determined to just remove or kill every reason i originally took interest in this game since the Kickstarter. if your all about the gathering and crafting it's just a complete waste of time. I don't really care about PvP but I have embraced it and started playing PvP mmorpgs due to the depth the crafting and gathering has over themepark mmo's. 

the more I play crowfall in it's current state i keep asking myself why do all these changes they have done over the past 6 months to 1 year make this feel more and more like  themepark nonsense that i wanted to get away from to begin with? 

I don't feel the freedom that a sandbox usually offers or a crafting system that feels like it matters, it feels like the same thing i would do in every generic themepark mmo and that's grind mobs for gold and loot. 

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Posted (edited)

I think a major problem crowfall suffers from is pushing players to do things they don't want to do. Many players would rather just gather resources, perhaps even focus on a single one, but it's not a viable playstyle if you want to progress reasonably. Without a market that has both buy and sell orders and the ability for people to easily find other traders people will continue to feel forced to do things in crowfall they think are boring. IMO it's extremely important to allow people freedom of choice and provide different progression paths to them. I would prefer to simply gather resources and sell them to other players to supplement gold but there is no way to efficiently achieve this with the current game systems (very lackluster chat system, and the vendor system is equally archaic)

I am pretty much for any changes like this that allow a variety of playstyles in crowfall provided it isn't taking people "out" of the world

Edited by Invis1988
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I will say that I think alot of the current iteration of gameplay issues are simply because this is the closed beta build and some things are intended to be adjusted but aren't implimented yet. 

However, there are still alot of new players coming in and when the population is at its highest gold farming grinds to a halt <as Zippy addressed> unless you are cool speed trampling someone else whose been gathering in the location you want to gather because they are on your faction. 

The implementation of some alternate way to gather Domination dust centralized around the core gameplay loop that its essential to progress is what I'm asking for. Chaos ember transmutation was my proposed option because I believe its be the fasted and easiest solution to impliment. 

 

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