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This feels really bad and useless in solo play


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Posted (edited)

I am a templar with paladin specialization and Light Domain.

Let me talk about this from the perspective of someone that wants to be able to play both solo and group play.

 

1. PIP generation is utterly RNG.  It is not smooth, the cost of skills makes when you get to cast something somewhat of random luck. Pair that with cooldowns that are fairly harsh and it makes an entirely frustrating situation even worse.

2. Healing being tied to a spot on the ground and you doing damage means you're pretty much worthless.  You cannot protect yourself when focused and heal.  You cannot heal and move because no PIPs and healing is location based.  You could heal and move for pitiful amounts and die when focused.  In solo play all someone has to do is move out of your circle and you lose a lot of your healing/damage.

3. You trade every last bit of damage for healing effectiveness and vice versa.  You cannot have a balance of some damage + healing.  It's all or nothing and the damage side of the class isn't strong enough to make it worth doing a damage build instead of a healing build.  The healing build is a run and pray if you happen to be solo on infested.

I am in a guild, my guild doesn't always play when I do and being completely unable to have even a prayer in solo PVP is not fun.  I don't expect the class to 1v4, but getting smoked by every damage dealer in the game every single time is not something that makes me ever want to play CF again.

I really wanted to like this game and the Templar/Paladin; I just don't right now.

 

Edit: Forgot to say this as well - Maybe my luck is horrid, but where is any plate gear with Damage/Healing on it?!?

Edited by Maverick494
clarified
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Ideas:

1. Make or make sure Righteous stand generates at least 1-2 PIP every so often (I leave balance and timing up to you)
2. Make Divine Light a temporary aura for Paladin only instead of a locational drop
3. Make auto generate 1 PIP per hit instead of having to get all 3 auto off to get PIP

That's it so far.

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Posted (edited)

Hi Maverick494,

i have played Templar/Paladin a lot. What i can tell you - its a Tank/Healer and you will mostly lose any PvP fight solo.
He is good if you play with friends in a Group. I play a lot with a friend and if you have a DD to team up, you can win fights :)
The Templar has some great heals: Holy Warrior is a good heal for you and the lowest member of your Group. 
Healing-Burst (dont know the right name now, be at work) is a nice heal for the group.
With light Domain you can pick Naiad (more AoE Heal), Firar (Chain-Heal), Pixie (Heal-Orb?) for more heal.

I dont use Devotion to heal - but as paladin its a cleanses too. Use it to remove Debuffs!

And with the block you are really tanky! But i thinks it is from all Heal-Classes the worest Damage.
 

Edited by Famelor
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Posted (edited)

Tanky is meaningless when all you can do is stand there blocking and hoping to get a break from blocking to do anything else. I know this game is supposed to be this uber group/guild game; I get it.  I am not asking to be a healer and a dps at the same time. I am asking not to be completely smoked if I happen to be solo which is the case now.  I cannot even disengage if I want to.  Every single other class can just chase me down and kill me.  I can't out heal them, I can't out run them, I can't tank them to death or at least force them to leave me alone because it would take too long to kill me.  That does not feel good.  

Nor does it feel good in group play to essentially have to stand still and have only a small area where you can be completely effective. Standing there barely moving with a parry up until it proc's a righteous parry so you can do some fraction of a DD damage to someone and it MIGHT knock someone down so you can then plop a heal out is not good or engaging game play.

Edit:

Further what is the point of a tank in a non-PVE game exactly?  Especially if that tank really isn't at all harder to kill than anything else? There is also the fact that one of your healing abilities requires you to actually do damage to heal.  I don't do enough damage to make that skill worth a crap where I should ever even be attacking. There are also clerics and they far out heal anything I can do, so why do I lack so much damage?

Edited by Maverick494
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I disagree with this post entirely.   Check out my youtube (you'll have to go back 10 months but they havent changed much). The majority of the old Paladin videos are from a time when the class was way worse and everyone was calling them trash.  Stayed competitive then.  They're way better than before but still a tough class for newer players.   If you're standing still you're doing something wrong especially in a group setting.   The only 2 things that will be problems are assassins (wtb anti-stealth) ,  good myrmidons. 

https://www.youtube.com/user/MrErad1/

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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, MrErad said:

I disagree with this post entirely.   Check out my youtube (you'll have to go back 10 months but they havent changed much). The majority of the old Paladin videos are from a time when the class was way worse and everyone was calling them trash.  Stayed competitive then.  They're way better than before but still a tough class for newer players.   If you're standing still you're doing something wrong especially in a group setting.   The only 2 things that will be problems are assassins (wtb anti-stealth) ,  good myrmidons. 

https://www.youtube.com/user/MrErad1/

You can disagree, I have watched your videos and others.  I have also played a paladin in every MMO that I could get my hands on and has one.  The one in this game is lackluster at best.  Fixed locational healing is a complete failure in every game it has ever been tried in where there is large movement.  Long cooldowns paired with that on any healing not tied to locational healing further compounds the issue. I never stand I was standing still, but a shuffle in parry is hardly moving and since you get focused for obvious reasons, you are parry almost 90% of the time.

Say it is "you're a newb" all you want, but I am far from that.

Oh and I just tried out vindicator to see if the damage was any better than paladin and it's sort of better, but not to my liking as it trades too much survivability for not a lot more damage.

 

Additionally, the only time I have seen you play that paladin of yours recently is running around in infested doing some mob farming.  I don't know if you solo PVP'd anyone or if you used it in group PVP as a healer. I don't think you did though.

Edited by Maverick494
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27 minutes ago, Maverick494 said:

You can disagree, I have watched your videos and others.  I have also played a paladin in every MMO that I could get my hands on and has one.  The one in this game is lackluster at best.  Fixed locational healing is a complete failure in every game it has ever been tried in where there is large movement.  Long cooldowns paired with that on any healing not tied to locational healing further compounds the issue. I never stand I was standing still, but a shuffle in parry is hardly moving and since you get focused for obvious reasons, you are parry almost 90% of the time.

Say it is "you're a newb" all you want, but I am far from that.

Oh and I just tried out vindicator to see if the damage was any better than paladin and it's sort of better, but not to my liking as it trades too much survivability for not a lot more damage.

 

Additionally, the only time I have seen you play that paladin of yours recently is running around in infested doing some mob farming.  I don't know if you solo PVP'd anyone or if you used it in group PVP as a healer. I don't think you did though.

Yep solo pvp'd people with it .  Like i said its lack of experience with it.  Also all healers have the same issue.  Usually 1 type of single target heal and the rest are AOEs. Its also the reason you see groups mainly run 2 healers per group.  There's a few majors you can pick up for chain healing but pretty much anything to heal yourself is AOE.

Trust me this conversation has been repeated multiple times over the years here it was way worse before for Templars.

Vindicators damage is way higher than Paladins.  Can practically erase someone in 5 seconds but like you said it trades a lot of survivability for said damage. You could try paragon and battle to give you a little more tankiness for the Vindi.

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On 5/20/2021 at 2:56 AM, MrErad said:

Yep solo pvp'd people with it .  Like i said its lack of experience with it.  Also all healers have the same issue.  Usually 1 type of single target heal and the rest are AOEs. Its also the reason you see groups mainly run 2 healers per group.  There's a few majors you can pick up for chain healing but pretty much anything to heal yourself is AOE.

Trust me this conversation has been repeated multiple times over the years here it was way worse before for Templars.

Vindicators damage is way higher than Paladins.  Can practically erase someone in 5 seconds but like you said it trades a lot of survivability for said damage. You could try paragon and battle to give you a little more tankiness for the Vindi.

I seriously hate arguments like that "we already talked about that" / "watch some rnd vids from almost a year back, where I might have some not relatable 1v1's". 

I am totally agreeing with Maverick on every point he made. 

Templar Paladin is in a bad state. You can't disengage, you can't follow up, you can't outsustain (neither by tanking nor healing) and you can't do damage. 

My experience so far is really frustrating. Out of 50 or so engagements I had I lost every one except one today where the enemy did stop for some fun change. 

90% of enemy's either kite you or burst you to death. The few really melee combatants just outsustain your meager damage and out dps your sustain. The Burst is not even funny anymore, I mean I wear full blue plate with 10k health and I get bursted from out of nowhere in the time it takes me to react and use the stance... 

Seriously if an enemy is able to burst a tank in like 2 secs, or 3-4 secs if I manage to maybe heal once and use stance a bit, then there is IMHO something wrong. 

All that while there is no chance of me being a threat at all, except for if the enemy can't burst me so hard and runs into my retaliate ability over and over again. And even then I couldn't kill anyone yet. 

Group play might be kinda OK, even though I don't feel like I make a huge difference if I can't help with damage (bcs kiting) and my heals do max 1k which is like healing 1-2 auto attacks with a humongous cool down. Oh ofc you can tank a while in stance if someone is focusing you in a group fight. 

So i personally don't think healers and tanks are in a good place. Especially if there are classes like wardens out there that do like 5x the damage and sustain themselves with it. 

 

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Big difference here also is lack of gear i can promise you that. A Templar isnt terrible solo if played right and fully geared, alot of the players you are fighting in infected right now are well geared, doesnt matter how bad they play when you do only a 1/4 of their damage and sustain

 

I don't want to kill more rats, fill another experience point bar or collect another meaningless badge. I want to play a GAME against PLAYERS, where my actions, my decisions and my SKILL will determine if I win or lose. Allies. Enemies. Alliances. Betrayal. risk. Conquest. To compete with THOUSANDS of other players for a chance to claim the THRONE. Even if i lose, the experience won't feel hollow. I don't want another worthless trophy.

PLAY TO CRUSH

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Posted (edited)
On 5/27/2021 at 5:21 PM, krevra said:

Big difference here also is lack of gear i can promise you that. A Templar isnt terrible solo if played right and fully geared, alot of the players you are fighting in infected right now are well geared, doesnt matter how bad they play when you do only a 1/4 of their damage and sustain

 

Do you think there is such a huge gap? I mean, I just dinged 31 posting my last reply and had full blue tribe equipment. I can't estimate the upper ceiling. Sadly I also don't know how much damage reduction 2.2k armor give (and resistances). I saw snowye Crit often for 6-6.5k on her Assassin but it was more likely against leather/mail. I believe crits I ate so far were more in the 4k range? But even then I can't sustain that... But I got slowly drained by ginipig pistols more often anyways... XD

Edited by Syracus
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/27/2021 at 1:26 AM, Syracus said:

I seriously hate arguments like that "we already talked about that" / "watch some rnd vids from almost a year back, where I might have some not relatable 1v1's". 

Well, thats a shame.

It doesnt change the fact that the old debates are still relevant and nothing has changed to require further debates.

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9 minutes ago, Toadwart said:

Well, thats a shame.

It doesnt change the fact that the old debates are still relevant and nothing has changed to require further debates.

Plenty has changed for the templar just the debate hasnt changed. Its the same talking points but more to do with skill level than the class itself.

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2 hours ago, MrErad said:

Plenty has changed for the templar just the debate hasnt changed. Its the same talking points but more to do with skill level than the class itself.

That seems like a round about way of saying nothing has really changed.

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Templar gameplay being about Parrying till you get a Rightious Proc then returning damage 10 fold is mindnumbingly boring and skillless.  

Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

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On 5/19/2021 at 6:00 PM, Maverick494 said:

Tanky is meaningless when all you can do is stand there blocking and hoping to get a break from blocking to do anything else. I know this game is supposed to be this uber group/guild game; I get it.  I am not asking to be a healer and a dps at the same time. I am asking not to be completely smoked if I happen to be solo which is the case now.  I cannot even disengage if I want to.  Every single other class can just chase me down and kill me.  I can't out heal them, I can't out run them, I can't tank them to death or at least force them to leave me alone because it would take too long to kill me.  That does not feel good.  

Nor does it feel good in group play to essentially have to stand still and have only a small area where you can be completely effective. Standing there barely moving with a parry up until it proc's a righteous parry so you can do some fraction of a DD damage to someone and it MIGHT knock someone down so you can then plop a heal out is not good or engaging game play.

Edit:

Further what is the point of a tank in a non-PVE game exactly?  Especially if that tank really isn't at all harder to kill than anything else? There is also the fact that one of your healing abilities requires you to actually do damage to heal.  I don't do enough damage to make that skill worth a crap where I should ever even be attacking. There are also clerics and they far out heal anything I can do, so why do I lack so much damage?

Tanks here serve the same purpose as in moba’s.  They are disruptive and good use of them will shift meta’s.  They bring CC, block attacks, peel for others or form physical barriers.  As for a character that’s good at everything; it’s not going to happen.  By design the devs want chars good at different things.  Healers in CF are purposely bad at healing themselves and excel at others; this is why you need two healers per group. Templars are siege chars.  The tenplars whole point is a hold this ground concept.  You might need to play a different class but again understand the devs don’t want solo chars good at sieges or siege chars good at everything.  This is by design.  

Edited by mandalore
40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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I find the classification of "siege" - characters kinda strange. Also, if the point of Pally is to be good at holding it's ground, why is he dying so fast that I can't even start to heal it through. And Parry is meh on my 34 pally with max spirit and a 93 dam sword I do maybe 1k average retaliation. That might seem a high number but I had to Parry like 2+ seconds to get it off and take damage while waiting. It might be equipment difference, it might be outliers on damage side (warden/assassin) or it might be that pally could use a defensive/sustain buff. Also I get that ranged classes counter a stationary melee. That's totally fine. 

 

Edit:

Just to make this clear. You are totally ok if a Damagedealer is complaining about not being able to kill someone in one Rotation bcs he heals himself.

While you are not ok if a healer/tank wants to be able to survive if all his time is devoted to defensive/healing actions.

That's just crazy. I mean as a PAL if i try to survive i don't even have a CHANCE to kill someone. So i can't kill and i am not allowed to at least survive. Nice balance there. It's already not that cool to always have to leave if someone enters your vicinity, but to be just flat out dead is crazy.

 

Usually that's the reason why you can pick off a healer in group fights. Bcs as soon as he does anything else as healing/peeling himself, he dies. And if he only focuses on staying alive, his mates die. 

 

Don't get me wrong, i just want to understand what this strange concept is coming from and why you defend it. As of yet i didn't hear any good reasons.

Edited by Syracus
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22 minutes ago, Syracus said:

I find the classification of "siege" - characters kinda strange. Also, if the point of Pally is to be good at holding it's ground, why is he dying so fast that I can't even start to heal it through. And Parry is meh on my 34 pally with max spirit and a 93 dam sword I do maybe 1k average retaliation. That might seem a high number but I had to Parry like 2+ seconds to get it off and take damage while waiting. It might be equipment difference, it might be outliers on damage side (warden/assassin) or it might be that pally could use a defensive/sustain buff. Also I get that ranged classes counter a stationary melee. That's totally fine. 

 

Edit:

Just to make this clear. You are totally ok if a Damagedealer is complaining about not being able to kill someone in one Rotation bcs he heals himself.

While you are not ok if a healer/tank wants to be able to survive if all his time is devoted to defensive/healing actions.

That's just crazy. I mean as a PAL if i try to survive i don't even have a CHANCE to kill someone. So i can't kill and i am not allowed to at least survive. Nice balance there. It's already not that cool to always have to leave if someone enters your vicinity, but to be just flat out dead is crazy.

 

Usually that's the reason why you can pick off a healer in group fights. Bcs as soon as he does anything else as healing/peeling himself, he dies. And if he only focuses on staying alive, his mates die. 

 

Don't get me wrong, i just want to understand what this strange concept is coming from and why you defend it. As of yet i didn't hear any good reasons.

because the siege term is a legacy term for the old day describing Templars.  Its pretty irrelevant these days such as Mandalore. 

Yes warden is a bit of a problem same with the assassins decimate. Lots of it has to do with gear difference though. Hearing of some assassins punching 2k+ with decimate through parries or more. I'm guessing high pen so your armor is basically useless and the only thing  protecting you at that point is PDM.  Other problem is the crazy delay in abilities which can allow some hits to slip through.

The other issues will be warden and how quickly the ult comes back. Some of these ults are problematic in how they work with the 80% PDM attached to them.  So even if you get a nice righteous parry off & the frequency of the ults they're actually tankier than you.  Same issue rears its head in Alphas and the other champs to a degree.  The cutt is in an interesting place at the moment with it feeling like an assassin but with Cutts being able to 2 shot most people its going to be interesting to see how they balance that.  First step would be to make their ult like a confessor then see where things go from there.   Hopefully they take a look at all these ults in the future and balance them accordingly .  A lot of the issues arise because of them.
 

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13 hours ago, MrErad said:

. Hearing of some assassins punching 2k+ with decimate through parries or more. I'm guessing high pen so your armor is basically useless and the only thing  protecting you at that point is PDM. 

Solo gameplay vs Siege play is super different.  In a solo play where a character is blocking I'd love to see screenshots of those 2k through parry, otherwise they are just rumors. 
In siege play : the window you have of doing -anything- is seconds. 
You're diving in deep and having to leave almost imidiately after, there is little to no room for mistakes and often you don't get the kill you need due to rng. 

With the current changes to the top end damage : the removal of heavy weapons that window (TTK) just became a lot longer.  Yet the assassin didn't get more sustainability.  It's still a super squishy class and it has to do a lot of bending in the wind to avoid damage and mitigate correctly, knowing which abilities to soak up and which to dodge becomes important.

So removing the top end of the damage, is what it is, but either give the assassin something that actually poses a threat or make it possible for it to stay longer.  

All the videos you see of huge numbers, are also : A small selection of a -lot- of footage.  The rng is huge and it doesn't at all symbolise the norm of the class.  It shows to absolute max.  That max is reached by pinning a min/maxed character vs a NON-min/maxed and waiting for the stars to align.

In general the game has taken a direction where mindless gameplay outdamage and outclass things that actually require just an ounce of skill.  Wardens hit trap master and then just pump out AoE damage making an insane amount of damage - 1 ability triggers 3 Large Dots, as well as Anti Stealth and Black Mantle.  All the player did was hit 2 buttons, @bobs your uncle and you didn't really do anything that required a skill shot.  You have templar parrying till the end of a siege, just waiting for a "Rightious Parry" proc, and then doing a Cone knockdown and a huge amount of damage.  Where is the skill play at?

I would just love to see "Click and Forget" damage get toned down.  Get skill shots into the lime light again and in general not make things so easy for ranged classes to hit.  Archers in general still do a mindnumbingly large amount of damage from 60+ m, with little downside what so ever.

 

Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

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Paladin play is about the long game and if its a field fight, 90% of the time you have lost in 1v1 purely because if the enemy knows how to keep mobility then the paladin will eventually run out of steam.

As Pala , i find the best 1v1s i have are where i can play with LoS to my advantange, decent corners and such so i can use my divine light a lot to help bring my health up.

Parry is your bread and butter, but do remember you have to drop it retaliate and you can be very vulnerable in that window, 1k on a healing focused paladin is pretty much right on the parry and of course does not work on all classes like fessors or archmages (where as decimate and warden traps work on everyone), but the parry will still mitiagte damage, depending on your talents taken and build of course will show what other tools you have to win with.

overall though, i hate using my Pala for 1v1s, i dont think its a spec thats really built for it talent wise, but excels in group based play all the way to massive scale

 

It took me months of pushing myself with Templar to get used to it and i'm really glad i did, a lot of the play is getting used to the massive toolbox of tricks it has available ❤️

 

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6 hours ago, Soulreaver said:

Solo gameplay vs Siege play is super different.  In a solo play where a character is blocking I'd love to see screenshots of those 2k through parry, otherwise they are just rumors. 
In siege play : the window you have of doing -anything- is seconds. 
You're diving in deep and having to leave almost imidiately after, there is little to no room for mistakes and often you don't get the kill you need due to rng. 

With the current changes to the top end damage : the removal of heavy weapons that window (TTK) just became a lot longer.  Yet the assassin didn't get more sustainability.  It's still a super squishy class and it has to do a lot of bending in the wind to avoid damage and mitigate correctly, knowing which abilities to soak up and which to dodge becomes important.

So removing the top end of the damage, is what it is, but either give the assassin something that actually poses a threat or make it possible for it to stay longer.  

All the videos you see of huge numbers, are also : A small selection of a -lot- of footage.  The rng is huge and it doesn't at all symbolise the norm of the class.  It shows to absolute max.  That max is reached by pinning a min/maxed character vs a NON-min/maxed and waiting for the stars to align.

In general the game has taken a direction where mindless gameplay outdamage and outclass things that actually require just an ounce of skill.  Wardens hit trap master and then just pump out AoE damage making an insane amount of damage - 1 ability triggers 3 Large Dots, as well as Anti Stealth and Black Mantle.  All the player did was hit 2 buttons, @bobs your uncle and you didn't really do anything that required a skill shot.  You have templar parrying till the end of a siege, just waiting for a "Rightious Parry" proc, and then doing a Cone knockdown and a huge amount of damage.  Where is the skill play at?

I would just love to see "Click and Forget" damage get toned down.  Get skill shots into the lime light again and in general not make things so easy for ranged classes to hit.  Archers in general still do a mindnumbingly large amount of damage from 60+ m, with little downside what so ever.

 

hahah I would love skill shots but thats never going to happen with how the current game is setup.  Correct Assassin stuff is usually a maxed vs unmaxed for some of those damage numbers but I've had a guildmate who is in some really good player crafted get crit for around 2k on a decimate  while parrying.  Hell my cutt i made currently can self buff up to 28% Pen with mob drop stuff and think I decimated an alpha for 2.8k-3.2k on a poor vessel and back stabbed for about 1.4k.  Not forgetting the sneak attack opener.

On my vindicator the block is around 56% PDM on a common. Blue mob drop geared I'm basically pushing 20% resistance would be higher on player crafted but haven't tried pushing that.  My cutt has a penetration of roughly 13.5% without buff so after the opener or depending on how I play it I can have up to 28%+ on just a poor vessel in mob dropped gear.  Plate Paladin depending on the armor will run between 25-30%  so You'll be ignoring nearly half to the full thing in mob.   So the only thing that would be protecting the Templar is their PDM.   Paladin depending on skills etc is 63.56 so their PDM is anywhere between 56-63.56% possibly slightly higher depending on builds.  I can see punching through a parry easily over 2k.  Start making some great player crafted weapons depending on pen etc anything below mail will basically be useless.

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