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FEEDBACK: Bring Back Equipment Dropping.


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Hi  first post in 3 years, Everything has basically changed, this game is much more fun to play ui is polished, It no longer feels like Im playing an ALPHA release, 
NPE is awesome, Loved it, but a new player could use a little bit more 'education' with what the mechanics are for actual crowfall (sieges etc) 
It looks like you made Crafting and gathering considerably easier by removing Training times.. so...it could be a good time to introduce some sort of loot drop mechanic, 

I remember Full loot was promised, now it looks like no loot is the way its going. 
The only thing Id like returned would be Equipment Dropping, 
It doesn't have to be full loot, it could be a % based drop,  Lets say 15% to drop your boots/hat/tunic/glove 1-3% to drop your weapon, rings, mount etc  
So you might drop nothing at all, it's just a little bit of risk to make death a little bit meaningful. 


You could also balance this with some Durability damage being applied to the dropped item so you don't get a free ez epic boots after 5 manning down a CHAD 33 farming lv30s next to respawn.

This might be a terrible suggestion since at this time, it looks like the economy functions even worse then when it was introduced, but with a working economy this would be pretty great.

I come from games like RUST/Darkfall so I may be biased towards hardcore/full loot, but it just feels too carebeary right now, and the people who benefit most from that are people at the top, who wouldn't usually be farming newbs for their grey gear, it's just not worth it, but now it kinda is since you lose nothing by sitting at the first village outside just CRUSHING new players for fun, there is literally no downside(risk) if you die whatever just a little bit of durability damage, and there's also no reward to get people to counter. 
 

Enjoying the game,
Darnis.

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If they made gear ez come ez go it would be fine to drop full loot, but its not so easy and gear advantage is pretty significant. 

I don't want to kill more rats, fill another experience point bar or collect another meaningless badge. I want to play a GAME against PLAYERS, where my actions, my decisions and my SKILL will determine if I win or lose. Allies. Enemies. Alliances. Betrayal. risk. Conquest. To compete with THOUSANDS of other players for a chance to claim the THRONE. Even if i lose, the experience won't feel hollow. I don't want another worthless trophy.

PLAY TO CRUSH

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In Dregs campaigns the risk of death is a lot higher due to full inventory loot (not equipment though). Yes, in Infected it does feel a little "carebeary" with the no drops, but that is the place for that type of play.

I would argue that doing equipment drops would chase even more players away. 

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11 minutes ago, MurphyAKL said:

I would argue that doing equipment drops would chase even more players away. 

I would argue that allowing inventory drop but not gear drop is toxic towards newer players. The vets and those with an impressive gear advantage can simple slaughter newer players due to gear imbalance with zero risk. At least with full looting even vets would have to be cautious overgearing to kill newbies since they would now become a target due to gear drop.

 Allowing it to be one sided like this is good for vets and bad for newer players, either make it no loot or full loot. This way is the worst of both worlds.

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18 minutes ago, MurphyAKL said:

In Dregs campaigns the risk of death is a lot higher due to full inventory loot (not equipment though)

I see well, I've only started playing again and it looked like only the infected worlds were available.
I agree with Mystafyi
 

 

4 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

Allowing it to be one sided like this is good for vets and bad for newer players, either make it no loot or full loot. This way is the worst of both worlds.


The full geared Chads have no risk, they're not carrying around inventories of loot. As I said in OP usually Carebear situations cater to veteran beefy chads. 

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6 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

I would argue that allowing inventory drop but not gear drop is toxic towards newer players. The vets and those with an impressive gear advantage can simple slaughter newer players due to gear imbalance with zero risk. At least with full looting even vets would have to be cautious overgearing to kill newbies since they would now become a target due to gear drop.

 Allowing it to be one sided like this is good for vets and bad for newer players, either make it no loot or full loot. This way is the worst of both worlds.

Being a newer player I will agree to disagree with you. If there was full loot on my stuff right now in dregs I would have left the game a while ago.

Spending 50k for me on some gear to make me competitive is a lot bigger investment for me than a vet who has millions sitting in their inventory and backing crafters to easily make more. If I lose all of that gear due to a larger gank putting me back to square one....well, there are better things to do with my time.

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This is how im feeling and im part of a large guild but there is no way this guild can provide me a full set even after playing with them for a while, game is so grindy to get mats and provide for all. Devs have recently taken some steps that help like factory copies but even then dura is still too low and/or material amount is too high

Edited by krevra

I don't want to kill more rats, fill another experience point bar or collect another meaningless badge. I want to play a GAME against PLAYERS, where my actions, my decisions and my SKILL will determine if I win or lose. Allies. Enemies. Alliances. Betrayal. risk. Conquest. To compete with THOUSANDS of other players for a chance to claim the THRONE. Even if i lose, the experience won't feel hollow. I don't want another worthless trophy.

PLAY TO CRUSH

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1 minute ago, MurphyAKL said:

Being a newer player I will agree to disagree with you. If there was full loot on my stuff right now in dregs I would have left the game a while ago.

Spending 50k for me on some gear to make me competitive is a lot bigger investment for me than a vet who has millions sitting in their inventory and backing crafters to easily make more. If I lose all of that gear due to a larger gank putting me back to square one....well, there are better things to do with my time.

True, true, but that is a result of the extreme grind that ace has added to the game. If they want to keep the grind then no looting at all will be the future. 

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Yall might want to use another argument than it would help newbies or whatever.

You have to really be not thinking to compare a organized group to a unorganized often alone player.

All dropping gear will cause is headache and make yall even more cowardly. It is already hard to get a good fight when there is no real downside to losing.

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2 minutes ago, BarriaKarl said:

All dropping gear will cause is headache and make yall even more cowardly. It is already hard to get a good fight when there is no real downside to losing.

This line confuses me. You said that its hard to get fights with no downside to losing and yet claim gear drop(huge downside) will make things worse? 

 

 

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So the thing with loot drop is that the pain of losing the gear that you need almost always exceeds the pleasure of taking opponents' gear that you don't need.

It's an unbalanced fun/antifun equation, and it will continue to be unless the game supports more fungible gear or a better market for trade. It would be different if you could cash in looted stuff for its worth in mats, or sell it on an auction house for its worth in gold, but you can't, so when you pick up <some-random-piece-of-gear> that doesn't fit your build, you've gained something that's worth much less to you than when you lose <some-random-piece-of-your-gear>. Thus, you end up spending much more effort to gear yourself up on a regular basis.

Yes, this wasted effort spins the economy wheel, makes harvesting and crafting more valuable, etc. ... but it does so at the cost of adding a net-negative fun-sink to the game. That's REALLY REALLY BAD.

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1 minute ago, nihilsupernum said:

So the thing with loot drop is that the pain of losing the gear that you need almost always exceeds the pleasure of taking opponents' gear that you don't need.

It's an unbalanced fun/antifun equation, and it will continue to be unless the game supports more fungible gear or a better market for trade. It would be different if you could cash in looted stuff for its worth in mats, or sell it on an auction house for its worth in gold, but you can't, so when you pick up <some-random-piece-of-gear> that doesn't fit your build, you've gained something that's worth much less to you than when you lose <some-random-piece-of-your-gear>. Thus, you end up spending much more effort to gear yourself up on a regular basis.

Yes, this wasted effort spins the economy wheel, makes harvesting and crafting more valuable, etc. ... but it does so at the cost of adding a net-negative fun-sink to the game. That's REALLY REALLY BAD.

I agree, this game doesnt have an economy and many game systems suffer.

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8 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

This line confuses me. You said that its hard to get fights with no downside to losing and yet claim gear drop(huge downside) will make things worse? 

 

 

People dont have anything to lose and even then it still hard to get a good fight.

Most roamers/harverster do it on stealth classes so they can run away at the first sign of trouble.

Pvp is a constant struggle to outnumber everyone else. More often i have to get the jump on someone to get an 1v1 simply because the reaction of people seeing an enemy is to call more cuz god forbid they try to 1v1 them themselves. 80% of my deaths are me getting ganged upon.

So add a real penalty to losing and watch it get 10 times worse.

I dont mind dying outnumbered, it is just dura after all. But if yall want to give my stuff to cowards like that? Well, no more roaming for me.

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45 minutes ago, nihilsupernum said:

So the thing with loot drop is that the pain of losing the gear that you need almost always exceeds the pleasure of taking opponents' gear that you don't need.

It's an unbalanced fun/antifun equation, and it will continue to be unless the game supports more fungible gear or a better market for trade. It would be different if you could cash in looted stuff for its worth in mats, or sell it on an auction house for its worth in gold, but you can't, so when you pick up <some-random-piece-of-gear> that doesn't fit your build, you've gained something that's worth much less to you than when you lose <some-random-piece-of-your-gear>. Thus, you end up spending much more effort to gear yourself up on a regular basis.

Yes, this wasted effort spins the economy wheel, makes harvesting and crafting more valuable, etc. ... but it does so at the cost of adding a net-negative fun-sink to the game. That's REALLY REALLY BAD.

Agree'd, absolutely full loot only works well if specifically balanced for it. Rust is a great example of where full loot pvp works.

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Albion Online is an ever better example of how full loot can work in a mostly sandbox PvP game.

Full loot could be cool, if CF was designed around the concept, but it hasn't been. 

Full loot works in games like Albion Online because crafting is very simplistic, and there are auction houses which increase volume of trade and a market for accessing gear/materials, that also sets a market price, players also have a series of opt-ins towards increasing risk for increasing reward that helps players gauge how much effort they want to put into PvP.

In Crowfall, there is essentially just one mode inside real campaigns, maximum risk, and crafting is complex and trade is hard to do because no auction houses.

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2 hours ago, DocHollidaze said:

Albion Online is an ever better example of how full loot can work in a mostly sandbox PvP game.

Full loot could be cool, if CF was designed around the concept, but it hasn't been. 

Full loot works in games like Albion Online because crafting is very simplistic, and there are auction houses which increase volume of trade and a market for accessing gear/materials, that also sets a market price, players also have a series of opt-ins towards increasing risk for increasing reward that helps players gauge how much effort they want to put into PvP.

In Crowfall, there is essentially just one mode inside real campaigns, maximum risk, and crafting is complex and trade is hard to do because no auction houses.

Problem is crowfall was designed with looting in mind. From easy come-easy go gear to having skill determine combat not gear(remember that?) to not having grind for the sake of grind. We could pull up old graphics that literally show gear and inventory looting % depending upon ruleset. You must mean the devs went so far off the design that its currently not possible to have full loot anymore. The irony is that it wont support no loot either.

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what if you could insure gear so you would dropped gold instead of the gear piece (if you had the gold in the bank) if not ull drop the gear piece.
Can make 20% gold get lost in the drop aswell as a gold sink if u want another one of those.

Gear definetloy need to be easy come if we do full looting. atm takes way to long to craft sets. That being said i am all down for gear drop in crowfall but your just need to be able to replace it much easier than it is now, aka reduce recipe costs and increase resource drops.

Edited by veeshan

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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16 hours ago, mystafyi said:

We could pull up old graphics that literally show gear and inventory looting % depending upon ruleset.

Crowfall_WorldRules_1.jpg

The other threads discussing this topic recently are as follows:

 

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23 hours ago, mystafyi said:

I would argue that allowing inventory drop but not gear drop is toxic towards newer players. The vets and those with an impressive gear advantage can simple slaughter newer players due to gear imbalance with zero risk. At least with full looting even vets would have to be cautious overgearing to kill newbies since they would now become a target due to gear drop.

This is a really important point. It is one of the things that helps to balance the power disparity in Albion Online and other full loot games.  

In Crowfall, there is currently almost no cost to gear crutch. Durability loss is minimal and gear is easily replaceable for large guilds.

Even if there isn't much cost to dying in Infected, it's still not fun to participate in fights that you almost literally can't win as a newer player due to the power disparity (not to mention the skill and knowledge gap). It always feels bad to know that even if you improved your skills and played things near-perfectly, you still can't win against a roughly equally skilled opponent that is gear crutching. 

With increased population there will also be significant problems with griefing due to the negligible cost of doing so. 

There are a number of potential solutions to these problems, including:

  • Gear drop
  • Power scaling or soft/hard caps based on campaign types and/or game modes
  • Significant diminishing returns
  • Reduction of total power disparity
  • Karma/reputation (personally not a fan of this one)
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13 hours ago, mystafyi said:

Problem is crowfall was designed with looting in mind. From easy come-easy go gear to having skill determine combat not gear(remember that?) to not having grind for the sake of grind. We could pull up old graphics that literally show gear and inventory looting % depending upon ruleset. You must mean the devs went so far off the design that its currently not possible to have full loot anymore. The irony is that it wont support no loot either.

The CONCEPT for Crowfall included looting but that part has NOT been DESIGNED yet. When it is designed, it could be great for newb, vets, & player retention, or, it could be something that vets would like, newbs would hate and destroys player pop.

Mac

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