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A proposed solution to the lack of an Auction House in CF


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I'm not at all opposed to an AH but, if ACE is, and they seem to be, We could still have our vendors in EKs but solve the issue of finding things by placing a Vendor Explorer in the temple, We could search for what we want to buy by type of item and price range. The VE would return a list of items matching our request and include the EK & Vendor ID. When we find what we need, we could buy directly from the VE (and Blair will like this part) for a 10% surcharge, or go directly to the EK where the VE told us the item was and save 10%.

This is very similar to what DAoC had many years ago and seemed to work well.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, MacDeath said:

I'm not at all opposed to an AH but, if ACE is, and they seem to be, We could still have our vendors in EKs but solve the issue of finding things by placing a Vendor Explorer in the temple, We could search for what we want to buy by type of item and price range. The VE would return a list of items matching our request and include the EK & Vendor ID. When we find what we need, we could buy directly from the VE (and Blair will like this part) for a 10% surcharge, or go directly to the EK where the VE told us the item was and save 10%.

This is very similar to what DAoC had many years ago and seemed to work well.

Sounds like a good solution, it also should not matter if EK is online or offline as well, once venders are installed all items in them should be searchable and buyable at all times. That would solve alot of the current EK vendor issues, where EK's are often offline and are out of luck if you wanted to buy something

Another nice benefit is players can see all sorts of items and compare them to each other and actually be able to tell whats junk and what isnt and what is a good deal for them. 

Edited by krevra

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A searchable DB is an awesome idea, even if we could get a general idea of what is in the EK before going in.

At least, there should be something to counter-act the trolling that will take place with EK's since they're pretty exploitable as it is now (at least from what we have tested).

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  • 2 weeks later...

Instant access to pricing info kills the vendor concept, and buying remotely kills merchant kingdom gameplay.

ACE should improve the EK QOL issues and add more functionality to Vendors first so the concept has a chance to work.

Make friends with a crafter - the design goal is to build communities :)

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4 minutes ago, miraluna said:

Instant access to pricing info kills the vendor concept, and buying remotely kills merchant kingdom gameplay.

ACE should improve the EK QOL issues and add more functionality to Vendors first so the concept has a chance to work.

Make friends with a crafter - the design goal is to build communities :)

There's no point in the vendor and mechant kingdom concepts anyway because it takes exactly the same amount of clicks and running to access any given vendor. All merchant EKs are equidistant from the player, as are all campaign merchants. It is effectively two giant shopping malls with a bunch of load screens and vendors you can't tell apart that make browsing both a chore for no discernible benefit to the buyer or seller.

The only useful function a vendor has is public sale, and they're terrible at enabling it. If you're building a community of trusted trade partners you're far better off building it on discord and cutting the vendor tax out of the equation by just using a custom EK with noble permissions/chests.

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1 minute ago, PopeUrban said:

If you're building a community of trusted trade partners you're far better off building it on discord and cutting the vendor tax out of the equation by just using a custom EK with noble permissions/chests.

That is still a community based on trade that wouldn't exist with an any where, any time, any player instant access AH. That even sounds alot like a guild supply and logistics system 😉

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1 minute ago, miraluna said:

That is still a community based on trade that wouldn't exist with an any where, any time, any player instant access AH. That even sounds alot like a guild supply and logistics system 😉

My point is that vendors suck at being vendors, not that trade communities or guild logistic is bad. EVE and albion have auction houses. Trade agreements and private logistics are still more efficient and preferred by players with the social structure to set them up.

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I don't think you can "fix" the QoL issues with EKs when the main QoL issue is the EK system itself, i.e. the fractured set of worlds.

EKs work brilliantly for personal/guild housing. But it's a fundamentally flawed solution to fracture your economy, and frankly the only meaningful persistent hub spaces, into that many pieces. It just feels completely counter to building a social MMO world.

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14 hours ago, miraluna said:

Instant access to pricing info kills the vendor concept, and buying remotely kills merchant kingdom gameplay.

Make friends with a crafter - the design goal is to build communities :)

That is still a community based on trade that wouldn't exist with an any where, any time, any player instant access AH. 

I don't understand this logic. Have you played games with AH?

Every MMO I've ever played with an AH still has player to player trading. There are still community designated trade hubs where people spam trade chat. It is still useful to know people that know people to obtain things. Community still exists.

The boogey man idea that AH destroy social economy and shouldn't exist makes no sense to me and by looking at basically every other MMO, the idea is far from reality.

If guilds/alliances want to trade within themselves, go for it. If a player wants to only work with select crafters, awesome. For those don't like to play loading, running, hovering, clicking simulators there should be a very basic option that practically every other MMO has. If not then the EK/Vendor model needs to be a top development priority and actually be good, not the same thing with a few extra options as the roadmap suggests.

 


 

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So i did some reflection and realized the thing here actually being attacked is the Eternal Kingdom Epeen discussion. 

Sure the vendors would get shafted price wise with the introduction of an auction house and the idea of pricing warfare goes out the window. 

But the thing that's mostly being contested is the idea that people wouldn't have to go to an ek to see the items and such. And I think that would actually bruise alot of econ players egos since we put a fair amount of effort into making our EKs look nice and at present outside of your own guild storage and crafting the only reason other players have to come to your ek is the shops. 

Like sure, I understand how an auction house would be useful. It streamlines alot of loading and stuff. 

I personally would be pretty happy with a tab on the EK enter world screen that shows how many vendors are in the world and a still shot of their wares, no prices, just an at a glance of the entire vendor display so you can at least have a window shopping idea of what's up. 

At least that's my passing thought on the matter. 

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I beleive if Crowfall ever wants to implement a full loot game mode, it will require fully working centralised EK otherwise the easy come is still not very easy come, this could also have a version setup in the free city within a dregs for the long term version when imports becomes a problem.

I love my Port Royal Traders EK and have enjoyed its success, but if we are able to sell at a 24/7 AH with a additional gold sink for putting the item up for sale and help with a mini gold sink then I think this would actually be able to help establish an economy as well as help crafting guilds and pro-crafting players have more reknown as their items would be sought after globally if the quality is there.

But until this occurs, i look forward to seeing you all in Port Royal Traders EK  at launch :)

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7 minutes ago, Altybear said:

But the thing that's mostly being contested is the idea that people wouldn't have to go to an ek to see the items and such. And I think that would actually bruise alot of econ players egos since we put a fair amount of effort into making our EKs look nice and at present outside of your own guild storage and crafting the only reason other players have to come to your ek is the shops. 

I think it's flawed to think that people will care about how much time you put into your EK. They are there to get the stuff they want and leave. They're not going to hang out and tour your personal kingdom.

It's possible to get players to care about their EK. It's possible to get players to care about their guild's EK. But I don't see players giving more than a passing thought about someone else's EK. There will be the odd exception, like events hosted in community driven arena EKs. But I think you will see that, in general, players won't spend more time in an EK than it takes to load in, find a vendor, and leave. Maybe this is different if EKs are grouped/connected in some shared world server that you can walk around in, or you allow players to interact with other player's EKs in some way, or you allow players to kick over other player's sand castles.

Just like it's a mistake to split your playerbase between 15 different campaigns, it is an inferior solution to split your economic system into N player worlds.

 

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47 minutes ago, Pystkeebler said:

I think it's flawed to think that people will care about how much time you put into your EK. They are there to get the stuff they want and leave. They're not going to hang out and tour your personal kingdom.

It's possible to get players to care about their EK. It's possible to get players to care about their guild's EK. But I don't see players giving more than a passing thought about someone else's EK. There will be the odd exception, like events hosted in community driven arena EKs. But I think you will see that, in general, players won't spend more time in an EK than it takes to load in, find a vendor, and leave. Maybe this is different if EKs are grouped/connected in some shared world server that you can walk around in, or you allow players to interact with other player's EKs in some way, or you allow players to kick over other player's sand castles.

Just like it's a mistake to split your playerbase between 15 different campaigns, it is an inferior solution to split your economic system into N player worlds.

This feels a bit aggro, also incorrect.  Different players appreciate different things to different extents.  How well set up and nice an EK looks does make an impact even if a player is largely functionality based.  I know because I honestly don't really care about appearances and skins and all the pretty stuff...but I do still notice and appreciate it.  It's just not what I'm focused on.  And this includes EKs.  So if I see a neat glowy tree or something I'll take a look at it.  And I might indeed tour an EK if it's well set up even if 95% of my time in EKs is functionality based.  If an EK is set up well I'll notice.  And given the choice between an ugly one and a pretty one I'll prolly prefer the pretty one but I'll still use both because I want my GD items :D.

Reality is even a functional player would care if one world looked like a complete garbage fire and another was put together well and "pretty".  As long as it doesn't get in the way of us finding our items then a world looking good is better than a world looking terribad.  Also the reality is that not everyone is a functional player.  Some people really dig aesthetics and MMORPG players do tend to have a high representation of people who dig aesthetics which is why alot of people like all those custom mounts that are functionally the same.

Just like my class mechanics matter to me almost exclusively but I do appreciate the fact that the hamster duelists look dapper AF or that Centaur Champion's dropping the people's elbow on people is farking hilarious.

EDIT:  As an aside there is a solution that allows functionality but also routing people to people's EKs too.  It's been done in MMORPGs before even in DAOC via their consignment merchant.  A merchant that acts as more of a global EK AH but that charges a 20% surcharge for delivering the items to you instantly.  So people not wanting to pay the surcharge would search up items and then visit the EK directly after finding the items via the centralized search NPC.  I'm sure other solutions exist too.  People get way way too binary in their thinking.

Edited by Ralathar44
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One thing that I think many people are missing is the personal aspect of player vendors versus an AH. This is one of the things that made SWG crafting/economy stand out. Players will start to earn a reputation and you'll know certain crafters.

"Hey, I need a new sword, let me go to the AH"
versus
"Hey, I need a new sword... Bob had some great stuff last time so let me go check his shop and see what he's got."

It really allows crafters to make a name for themselves. That is far more interesting to me than an AH.

Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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1 hour ago, Ralathar44 said:

This feels a bit aggro, also incorrect.  Different players appreciate different things to different extents.  How well set up and nice an EK looks does make an impact even if a player is largely functionality based.  I know because I honestly don't really care about appearances and skins and all the pretty stuff...but I do still notice and appreciate it.  It's just not what I'm focused on.  And this includes EKs.  So if I see a neat glowy tree or something I'll take a look at it.  And I might indeed tour an EK if it's well set up even if 95% of my time in EKs is functionality based.  If an EK is set up well I'll notice.  And given the choice between an ugly one and a pretty one I'll prolly prefer the pretty one but I'll still use both because I want my GD items :D.

Reality is even a functional player would care if one world looked like a complete garbage fire and another was put together well and "pretty".  As long as it doesn't get in the way of us finding our items then a world looking good is better than a world looking terribad.  Also the reality is that not everyone is a functional player.  Some people really dig aesthetics and MMORPG players do tend to have a high representation of people who dig aesthetics which is why alot of people like all those custom mounts that are functionally the same.

Just like my class mechanics matter to me almost exclusively but I do appreciate the fact that the hamster duelists look dapper AF or that Centaur Champion's dropping the people's elbow on people is farking hilarious.

EDIT:  As an aside there is a solution that allows functionality but also routing people to people's EKs too.  It's been done in MMORPGs before even in DAOC via their consignment merchant.  A merchant that acts as more of a global EK AH but that charges a 20% surcharge for delivering the items to you instantly.  So people not wanting to pay the surcharge would search up items and then visit the EK directly after finding the items via the centralized search NPC.  I'm sure other solutions exist too.  People get way way too binary in their thinking.

Nothing aggro about it, the statement is an observation about player behaviors in general. So let me put the question to you this way: if the system is annoying for 95% of players and only 5% of the players find it interesting, is it a good design?

The only binary thinking here is this: Any system that fractures its economy into N instanced worlds is inferior to a more centralized solution simply by nature of having more wasted time in lobbies and load screens. A market explorer is a more centralized solution.

If I have to spin up, load into, and walk through more than 1 EK to find what I'm looking for, then I'm much less likely to engage with the economy. Even in the DAOC example player housing was in a shared world. IIRC it had a few zones connected by horse paths, but it wasn't the messy loop of: go to lobby -> select EK -> wait -> load -> wait -> walk between vendors -> logout -> repeat. It feels like I'm using the internet before the search engine was invented.

I would argue other things, too. I would say that even if the QoL issues were addressed the current system is less inclusive and has too many hurdles to participating in the economy. I would also say that not having a persistent, shared world to act as a hub is a mistake for any MMO. But this is all secondary to the main point that the current way of interacting with EK markets is a major headache.

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6 minutes ago, Pystkeebler said:

if the system is annoying for 95% of players and only 5% of the players find it interesting, is it a good design?

Thinking on more of a game designer level: it's not that simple.  There are alot of things in gaming that are annoying or that people don't find interesting that make a game work.  When players take over a game for example one of the biggest things that tends to happen is rampant power creep.  While initially this makes playerbases happy it usually kills the game because while the individual buffs and QOL that makes the game easier and etc are all incredibly well received individually for the most part, the long term ramifications end up sucking the fun out of a game typically.  I believe the private servers for City of Heroes are going through this cycle atm.

BUT, it's a question of whether or not that annoyance enables payoffs and returns elsewhere.  I think everyone agrees that the current implementation of EKs is not ideal and needs work. 

 

31 minutes ago, Pystkeebler said:

The only binary thinking here is this: Any system that fractures its economy into N instanced worlds is inferior to a more centralized solution simply by nature of having more wasted time in lobbies and load screens. A market explorer is a more centralized solution.

Again you're being binary.  I provided an example that already exists and was proven in DAOC that works for both. Something that encourages people to visit EKs but also says "if you don't want to you don't have to".


 

34 minutes ago, Pystkeebler said:

If I have to spin up, load into, and walk through more than 1 EK to find what I'm looking for, then I'm much less likely to engage with the economy. Even in the DAOC example player housing was in a shared world. IIRC it had a few zones connected by horse paths, but it wasn't the messy loop of: go to lobby -> select EK -> wait -> load -> wait -> walk between vendors -> logout -> repeat. It feels like I'm using the internet before the search engine was invented.

Right but there is no reason you'd have to do that if the system was set up right.  If only active EK items were listed on the market and it gave you both a purchase button for +20% cost and an EK button that would send you straight to that EK (and kick it for spinup in the rare case it went down as you were browsing then the process could be streamlined considerably.  In this way you could do the on foot route to save money or pay for convenience.

 

38 minutes ago, Pystkeebler said:

I would argue other things, too. I would say that even if the QoL issues were addressed the current system is less inclusive and has too many hurdles to participating in the economy. I would also say that not having a persistent, shared world to act as a hub is a mistake for any MMO. But this is all secondary to the main point that the current way of interacting with EK markets is a major headache.

I don't think EKs are mutually exclusive to having a shared world hub.  In fact don't we already have that?  We have both the free city and the current God's Reach throws all factions into the same hub.

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6 hours ago, APE said:

The boogey man idea that AH destroy social economy and shouldn't exist makes no sense to me and by looking at basically every other MMO, the idea is far from reality.

A small minority of the player base has better access to goods. Is it any wonder that they would try and preserve that economic advantage. One that a functioning market would help to nullify. 

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