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Great game, but please reduce cooldowns for Crusader.


Skullknight
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Crusader is the only healer that doesn't have enough self healing to be able to sustain itself against an opponent or group of opponents. I love what you've done with healing as a whole but this class needs a little bit of work. If possible can we please reduce the cooldown of Flash of light to (9 or 15 seconds) This opens up the window of making clerics able to heal themselves in dire situations a lot better. it can also be made like the Radical promotion passive, for easy game integration where the skill has a chance to reset its cooldown with basic attacking (Not the best, but that would be decent) Miracle's buff, increasing critical strike by 5% isn't something a healer should have. a 30-50% Damage reduction or a huge barrier would be great.

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@thomasblairhealer balance is an important thing for this game and right now the meta healer for group healing is crusader but it cannot heal itself for poorly made dergs and the other healers can't group heal for poorly made dergs so they are all auxiliary healers or just not really played (looking at you garbage frostweaver heal spec).   I know the game is about to launch.  I know you guys are busy.  You're about to see your beta testers rush the meta classes and any players who don't are going to play some off meta garbage healer and assist us in smashing them with their poor choice.  Some tweaks before launch could really go a long way towards the balance and health of the game for launch.   

 

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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Crusader does not need a buff, players need to get better at blocking correctly and bar swapping. Healers should fill a role, and Crusader has the highest throughput but middling defense - which is totally fine.

Don't buff cleric, fix Earthkeeper and tune Icecaller a little to add some variety. Rely on your squad to help keep you alive and don't be bad.

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Icecaller really needs a movement active or stamina regen help or something. The lack of mobility and poorly made dergsty animation speed are the roughest part of that class. It was quite strong before the retaliate nerfs came through.

Edited by TommyTwoSocks
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Great points, but i have to agree with Skullknight here. Also i don't believe Crudsader has the highest output on healing, i think hungerdome showed us that the Inquisitor takes the cake with that one. People who have played crusader for a long time would agree with what Skullknight is saying. If this class was really good, i'm sure we would have seen alot of them in peoples Group on ECS. 

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1 hour ago, Orimisu said:

Great points, but i have to agree with Skullknight here. Also i don't believe Crudsader has the highest output on healing, i think hungerdome showed us that the Inquisitor takes the cake with that one. People who have played crusader for a long time would agree with what Skullknight is saying. If this class was really good, i'm sure we would have seen alot of them in peoples Group on ECS. 

Not sure how serious you are but assuming that you are being serious, the Crusader Cleric build that the ECS had wasn't awful but wasn't necessarily their highest throughput build nor was it ideal/better than the other options for that style of game mode. They were just easy to isolate and drop due to them not having a ton of defensive tools to play with in their kit.

That weakness in their kit can be covered a bit by other classes/supports as fights starts to change as things scale up in size.

I think it is fine for things to have weaknesses so there isn't a best thing for every situation so I don't necessarily think that crusaders need a buff but Miracle's buff that applies with it is a little weird and probably could be something more useful toward healing considering the charge time on it.

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I would argue that in the right hands, with the right build and in the right group set-up the output of different healers it's not that bad.

Overall healing however it's way to limited to "HOT'' vs damage that has the 'spike' option and that needs addressing across the board.

Also for the OP Crowfall healing is balanced for 'better heal other' than 'heal self' and that's why you run 2 healers per group.

Edited by Prometeu

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On 6/25/2021 at 1:43 AM, Prometeu said:

Also for the OP Crowfall healing is balanced for 'better heal other' than 'heal self' and that's why you run 2 healers per group.

This is why so many people r forced to heal.  I'd like an increase to group size so less people r forced to heal and ttk for larger fights is shorter. 

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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49 minutes ago, mandalore said:

This is why so many people r forced to heal.  I'd like an increase to group size so less people r forced to heal and ttk for larger fights is shorter. 

Having some actual viable offheal options so people aren't tethered to specialist healers would also be good. It should be viable to build a group without a main heal if you plan a group spec around spreading DPS/heal duties across the group rather than having a bunch of hyperspecialized roles.

There are a lot of healing related disc choices, including racial ones, that should feel more compelling on non-healing specs the same way control or DPS discs feel compelling on heal specs.

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On 5/11/2015 at 1:48 PM, CAWCAWCAW said:

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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1 hour ago, PopeUrban said:

Having some actual viable offheal options so people aren't tethered to specialist healers would also be good. It should be viable to build a group without a main heal if you plan a group spec around spreading DPS/heal duties across the group rather than having a bunch of hyperspecialized roles.

There are a lot of healing related disc choices, including racial ones, that should feel more compelling on non-healing specs the same way control or DPS discs feel compelling on heal specs.

I disagree with the hybrid options.  I think hyper specialist are what define classes and discs.  There should be specific identity to your choices.  Part of the skill of this game should be having the agency to build properly for the demands of the fights you want.  If you blur those lines and let everybody do a little of everything you lose that agency and classes start to not matter. 

Edited by mandalore
40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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1 hour ago, PopeUrban said:

Having some actual viable offheal options so people aren't tethered to specialist healers would also be good. It should be viable to build a group without a main heal if you plan a group spec around spreading DPS/heal duties across the group rather than having a bunch of hyperspecialized roles.

There are a lot of healing related disc choices, including racial ones, that should feel more compelling on non-healing specs the same way control or DPS discs feel compelling on heal specs.

Larger group size direct impacts the amount of healers needed.  At 10 person groups only 20% of your group is needed to be healers but you have the option for more.  20% still seems high Bc not 20% of the class choices can effectively heal but it’s a good enough ratio.  Another major problem is healer balance.  CF healer balance is god awful.  That divide in tiers of healers will really show when organized groups bring the money/max viable healers and other people bring what they want instead of what’s good.  

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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3 hours ago, mandalore said:

I disagree with the hybrid options.  I think hyper specialist are what define classes and discs.  There should be specific identity to your choices.  Part of the skill of this game should be having the agency to build properly for the demands of the fights you want.  If you blur those lines and let everybody do a little of everything you lose that agency and classes start to not matter. 

Then what is the point of having disc options at all? Build diversity as a concept is a waste of time if it does not reward creativity.

I do not want that. The specific identity to your choices should be an identity you define. If that identity is "strong DPS that can only survive under the good graces of a similarly strong healer who deals noodle damage" that should be a viable choice. If your choice is "Hybrids that survive because the group is full of weaker DPS and healers that pick healing and damage targets well and come up to comparable numbers in aggregate" that should also be a viable choice.

These are not mutually exclusive ideas. They're simply two different ways to build a party.

What you are suggesting is that the entirety of all these various gear stats, disciplines, and talent trees should only exist to provide a single critical path and a bunch of false ones. You recgnize that healer balance is off but you're actively campaigning for disc balance to be relegated to the same problem. If rigid class identity and required party slots is the goal, we'd have been better off pulling a FF14 and just removing build diversity from the game, Removing the ability for people to slot a party wrong. It certainly idiot proofs that game's balance, but I'm not a fan of that kind of a lack of creativity in a pvp sandbox game that is supposed to be about creatively handling other players as content. I don't want to play the equivalent of a CCG where the only good decks are preconstructed starter decks. I want to play the game where the cards are situationally good in combination with one another and I can choose to either ape a proven deck or design my own to disrupt the meta.

If you want build diversity you can't also expect that build diversity to come along with such rigid roles. Roles should be situational depending on group synergies and enemy strengths and weaknesses. You should have the option of playing a party that loses half of its sustain when one guy dies but retains its damage, or a party that loses a only a fifth of its sustain but also a fifth of its DPS.

The way Crowfall combines builds out of co many interchangable pieces has room, if properly balanced, for players to decide if they want to hardline specialists, collect generalists, or gamble on a highly risky but highly rewarding gimmick, and that is the crowfall that is going to continuously push player to want to level more vessels and discs to increase their tactical pool of options, research their opposition, and weaponize tactical creativity rather than simply paint by numbers.

The fact that the current balance of the game requires a paint by numbers comp at all is a failing of the balance of the race, class, talent, attribute, equipment, and disc balance. It should not be considered a desirable outsome to say "if your group does not include two healers from this specific pool of classes you lose" regardless of party size. Your group of 5 knights should be viable is specced correctly. Or 2 rangers and 3 assassins. Or 5 storm druids. Or whatever. You should be looking at that toolbox and be thinking "how can I build a deck" rather than "how can I put the color green in the box labeled green"

We should not endeavor for a game that dictates rigid role assignments while having so many vectors for customization of a player's kit.

Edited by PopeUrban

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On 5/11/2015 at 1:48 PM, CAWCAWCAW said:

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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40 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

Then what is the point of having disc options at all? Build diversity as a concept is a waste of time if it does not reward creativity.

I do not want that. The specific identity to your choices should be an identity you define. If that identity is "strong DPS that can only survive under the good graces of a similarly strong healer who deals noodle damage" that should be a viable choice. If your choice is "Hybrids that survive because the group is full of weaker DPS and healers that pick healing and damage targets well and come up to comparable numbers in aggregate" that should also be a viable choice.

These are not mutually exclusive ideas. They're simply two different ways to build a party.

What you are suggesting is that the entirety of all these various gear stats, disciplines, and talent trees should only exist to provide a single critical path and a bunch of false ones. You recgnize that healer balance is off but you're actively campaigning for disc balance to be relegated to the same problem. If rigid class identity and required party slots is the goal, we'd have been better off pulling a FF14 and just removing build diversity from the game, Removing the ability for people to slot a party wrong. It certainly idiot proofs that game's balance, but I'm not a fan of that kind of a lack of creativity in a pvp sandbox game that is supposed to be about creatively handling other players as content. I don't want to play the equivalent of a CCG where the only good decks are preconstructed starter decks. I want to play the game where the cards are situationally good in combination with one another and I can choose to either ape a proven deck or design my own to disrupt the meta.

If you want build diversity you can't also expect that build diversity to come along with such rigid roles. Roles should be situational depending on group synergies and enemy strengths and weaknesses. You should have the option of playing a party that loses half of its sustain when one guy dies but retains its damage, or a party that loses a only a fifth of its sustain but also a fifth of its DPS.

The way Crowfall combines builds out of co many interchangable pieces has room, if properly balanced, for players to decide if they want to hardline specialists, collect generalists, or gamble on a highly risky but highly rewarding gimmick, and that is the crowfall that is going to continuously push player to want to level more vessels and discs to increase their tactical pool of options, research their opposition, and weaponize tactical creativity rather than simply paint by numbers.

The fact that the current balance of the game requires a paint by numbers comp at all is a failing of the balance of the race, class, talent, attribute, equipment, and disc balance. It should not be considered a desirable outsome to say "if your group does not include two healers from this specific pool of classes you lose" regardless of party size. Your group of 5 knights should be viable is specced correctly. Or 2 rangers and 3 assassins. Or 5 storm druids. Or whatever. You should be looking at that toolbox and be thinking "how can I build a deck" rather than "how can I put the color green in the box labeled green"

We should not endeavor for a game that dictates rigid role assignments while having so many vectors for customization of a player's kit.

Amen @PopeUrbanOne of the best features of CF is the ability to craft unique builds. And to switch em depending on the current situation.

Situational builds FTW.

Mac

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On 6/24/2021 at 12:58 AM, mandalore said:

@thomasblairYou're about to see your beta testers rush the meta classes and any players who don't are going to play some off meta garbage healer and assist us in smashing them with their poor choice.  Some tweaks before launch could really go a long way towards the balance and health of the game for launch.   

 

 

This is has been my experience returning to the game and learning what I can ready for launch. 

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1 hour ago, PopeUrban said:

We should not endeavor for a game that dictates rigid role assignments while having so many vectors for customization of a player's kit.

There should be many viable ways to build distinct classes with their own unique playstyle and pro/con.  The key to this is distinct and balanced disciplines with meaningful and impactful choices.  We don't have that as most the crusader choices are eh.  This is a design problem they have never tackled.  They did a half ass job with domains imo. 

Edited by mandalore
40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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7 hours ago, mandalore said:

There should be many viable ways to build distinct classes with their own unique playstyle and pro/con.  The key to this is distinct and balanced disciplines with meaningful and impactful choices.  We don't have that as most the crusader choices are eh.  This is a design problem they have never tackled.  They did a half ass job with domains imo. 

I'm saying no one choice should pigeonhole players in to a given role. Class promotion should not be the be all end all that says "welp you're a healer" or "welp you're a DPS" or whatever.

Wanting to load a healing spec up with healing discs and pumping healing related stats and equipping healing related gear should abolsutely make you mechanically better at healing and mechanically worse at everything else. However the issue us we have a situation right now in which that is your only viable option, and the delitirious effect is only slotting 2 healers per party is effective. Base healing talents need to be nerfed across the board, and healing related discs and stats need to be buffed across the board so that other paradigm can coexist with the existing meta, as the existing meta is stale and will forever remain so whether the party size is 5 people or ten. What's the point of having a healing skill in pack leader when the vast majority of templates that get it as a racial can't even get any real use out of it? What's the point of offering healing templates so many DPS options in gear, discs, stats, and equipment if using them is only ever a noob trap?

This is a problem we had, and in many ways still have with attributes. While it is certainly improved compared to what it used to be there are entirely too many false options in crowfall's buildcrafting, and healing, specifically, is a stand out example of this balance problem.

Edited by PopeUrban

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On 5/11/2015 at 1:48 PM, CAWCAWCAW said:

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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