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Guidelines:

a) What translation needs to change?
b) Why does it need to be changed?
c) What do you believe should it be changed to?

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.  [Rules of Conduct]

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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou are crunchy and go well with ketchup!

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On 7/3/2021 at 1:44 AM, ACE-Tiggs said:

Guidelines:

a) What translation needs to change?
b) Why does it need to be changed?
c) What do you believe should it be changed to?

OK, how to put it. Again.
I'll try to be gentle. Promise.

It's a little hard to use this guideline form, out of reasons I'll try to explain, hoping I'll be able to get the message over the ocean. ~cough~ OK. Let's go.
 

a) What translation needs to change?
Too many to even count.

b) Why does it need to be changed?
Because it sheds a bad light on the company, making it a "oh ... one of thooose companies" in the eyes of EU gamers.

c) What do you believe should it be changed to?
Into words that fit the meaning of the original within a Crowfall fantasy game environment, while being relatable and easily understood by people.
 

 

 Let's just take a look at the lobby. It only has a few words in it. Shouldn't be too problematic, right? Let's see.

 

dajHIf2.jpg

o Wrong translation: "WELTEN STARTEN"
These words describe the process of starting/loading/initiating worlds ... not the characteristic of those worlds being the place where to start/begin first. It's like "start worlds" or "load worlds". It's completely wrong in this place. The correct translation would be "Anfangswelten". Or in this case "ANFANGS WELTEN" (or "ANFANGS- WELTEN"), because -> see next point.

o Formatting issue: "SPIELERWELTE N"
I don't think I need to explain the issue. It's obvious. It can be circumvented by splitting the word Spielerwelten into it's parts. "SPIELER WELTEN". Usually, we would do that with adding a "-" to the end of the first word, in order to indicate that the word is not finished yet, and it's rest is in the next line. So it would look like this:

SPIELER-
WELTEN

o Irritating Translation: "LADEN"
Yes, "technically" Laden is one of the possible words for Shop ... just not in this environment. It also means "to load". And since the lobby is the place where to choose a world and load it ... that's irritating. Also there is no need for a translation to begin with. Shop is a legit loanword and highly used for internet shops. With "SHOP" the player immediately knows: This is the place where ACE sells it stuff. With "Laden" they don't necessarily.

o Too Literal Translation: "SOZIAL"
Perfect "literal" translation of the word "social". It's just not how it's usually or casually used in german, but a word with more of a quite scientific touch than a social one. One may extrapolate what may lie behind this button, but not without immediately recognizing that this was translated, and not smoothly. A feasable and more often used term would be "KONTAKTE" (contacts) as in most websites.

o No-Context Translation: "GEWÖLBE"
A "Gewölbe" is an achitectural, arched structure, often underground. And understood as that. Just that. There is no association with treasures in this german word. Even within a fantasy context it's more like "catacombs" or even "dungeon". What is meant with vault, though, is a treasure chamber. And Gewölbe doesn't mean that. It's like you would call it "attic". Nice, attic ... so, uh, now what? It can work (just as attic), but it's pretty bumby. "SCHATZKAMMER" (treasure chamber) would be perfect, but since it is probably too long "TRESOR" (safe/vault/strongroom) could also work.

(The last three are subgroups of the general category "Not-good translations". Those are translations that cause a short twitch in peoples minds, making them realize - and even if only subconsciously - that something is amiss here; like a glitch in the matrix. Those things add up and create the appearance of "yeah, those are definitely translations ... and they didn't take it seriously, only half-heartedly."  And that's quite a bad image that, i think, should be avoided.)


 

If one dares to leave the lobby, there will of course also be other types of translations issues, like the usually missing translation. Then there are double translations where for example two different runes with different names in english get the same name in german. Inconsistent translations, where something is translated this way here and that way there, both regarding the actual words and syntax. Artifical translations, where words get constructed, while there are perfectly legit translations existing for them (like "Foreman -> Vormann .. instead of Vorarbeiter). And lately also the Verschlimmbesser translations like this:

"Guinecean" -> "Guinezäer" ... instead of the former "Meeraner"

Spoiler

a) Guinecean has been translated to "Meeraner" since 2015 now, for 6 long years. Why the sudden change?
a) Guinezäer sounds extremely strange, the "zäer" ending for a nations people is most extremly rare, sounds more like an old bible nation than a musketeer nation.
b) Guine doesn't make sense in german. They are Guineceans because they are guinea pigs. Therefore: guinea + fitting people-indicator. Get it. But in german guinea pigs are Meerschweinchen (sea-piggies). Therefore: Meer + fitting people-indicator. Like Meeraner.
(Just like Frodo Baggins is Frodo Beutlin in german, because bag is beutel. That is good translations for you. Guinezäer is not. And replacing an already existing good translation after 6 years for with bad one - that's even worse. Just my opinion though, of course.)

 

Of course anybody could just say "ooh, too many this or that" without being specific. Fine, let's just take a short look at Stonemasonry recipe names. Just the names, nothing else.


- Grinding Wheel = Schleifendes Rad, instead of Schleifrad or Schleifscheibe
- Diamond Cutting Blade = Diamantschneidende Klinge (means blade (like swordblades) that can cut a diamond), instead of Diamantsägeblatt or Diamanttrennscheibe
- Wood Stakes (ingredient for palisades) = Holzstäbe (wooden sticks), instead of Holzpfhähle
- Crafting-Deck, not translated
- Qualitätsicherheits-Kontroll-Kit (quality safety), instead Qualitätssicherungskontrollausrüstung
- Public Chest, not translated, instead of Öffentliche Truhe
- Vassal Chest, not translated, instead of Vasallentruhe
- Noble Chest = Adelige Truhe (which says: this chest iself is a noble) instead of Adelstruhe or Adels-Truhe or Adeligen Truhe.
- Wall Panel (in many recipes) = Wallpaneel instead of Wandpaneel
- Wedge Wall = Mauerkeil, instead of Keilmauer
- Gatehouse, not translated
- Round Tower = Torhaus (gatehouse) instead of Rundturm
- Crafting Station (in many recipes) = Crafting-Station instead of Werkbank/Werkbänke
--- Stonemasonry = Steinmetzerei instead of Steinmetzkunst
--- Jewelcrafting = Edelstein-Crafting, instead of Juwelierskunst
--- Blacksmithing = Schmieden, instead of Schmiedekunst
--- Factory, not translated

And that's just a short look at some of the names. Not the tooltip or ingredient texts. And not even half of the recipe categories in stonemasonry alone.

 

 

Conclusion

The german translation needs a full check-up - still, and again. It is NOT enough to believe it would suffice to let players just report stuff and then maybe change them some times. And it's not enough to tell us there are overhauls, when afterwards there are still too many issues to even estimate their numbers. This is Launch. With the given scope ... this causes bad reputation.

Spoiler

(There being near-to-none german translation bug reports is NOT an indication of everything being fine. It's a sign of indignation after years of us trying to help you earn a good reputation. The german community was one of the most active. There are reasons why that changed. And, sorry to say, but, i would suggest to take a look at that.)

There needs to be a PRO doing it, and with PRO I mean someone much better than the people who did the last three shots. And they need to get help from people who know Crowfall and can answer questions and get answers if in doubt. Not just "here are some words, translate them". Because... see current results.

 

Thanks
Kraahk

Edited by Kraahk
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@KraahkI hope you copypasted and didn't type this again 😬

Regarding this thread, 2 feedback points:

#1: 2 Localization threads for public test & live server is too much imo. One is enough

#2: Localization feedback has collected from ACE over the last years which was more than actionable and it has seemingly never been acted on. Last time @MiracleMax brought the topic up again there was feedback once again and it ended with silence and no follow-up.

Just as a heads-up for anyone who is willing to spend significant time and effort on trying to improve it: don't do it and wait until ACE shows actual commitment to any sort of change.
And that change is probably only happening if there is financial purpose in improving localization.

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Hi @Kraahk and @Koerpermilch,

Thank you again for your feedback. I intended to reply to Kraahk's post last week but between the craziness of launch preparation and some unexpected forum breakages, I wasn't able to. Sorry for the delay.

A few notes about our process below:

First, we do read, collect, and share the posts that you make here, and we greatly appreciate them. Localization on an MMO with a small team is an enormous undertaking. There are thousands and thousands of strings, aggressive schedules, and in many cases unique game design mechanics that are challenging for outside vendors to translate correctly the first time around. There are typically 3-5 weeks of lead time required for each batch of strings we send over as we change existing strings or add new ones between milestones, and during that time, we constantly trade messages with the vendor's teams clarifying the meanings of certain terms in context.

During that time we also immediately fall behind, because Design has to continue working on the game (adding and changing strings before the current batch is even translated and integrated). That means even at launch, there are going to be some strings missing or untranslated. The alternative would be that we basically tell Design to stop adding/updating game data for several weeks, which I think you'd agree is not currently feasible. This is generally what causes the "missing" translations.

Sometimes, there are also technical blips where changes to string files are not recognized— so the English version changes but the translator is never aware that they need to update the field in other languages— or other times, we encounter issues where strings are simply too long to fit in a field (a common problem in German), or where an input error from either side leads to broken strings which need to be reviewed and repaired individually. (Or, my favorite, someone on our side accidentally forgets to set a field up to be localized, so it never gets picked up in the export in the first place!) Each time we uncover a problem like this, we try to iron it out and prevent it from happening in the future... But it all takes time.

My point here is this: localization is always going to be a bit behind and a bit wrong, but should improve more and more (and be wrong less and less) as development continues. Your feedback does make that happen faster, even if it doesn't always feel like that's the case.

Second, I'd like to acknowledge that I think your critiques of our translations, particularly in the lobby, seem fair (as a non-German speaker, I have to take your word for it, and I do). I fully expect some of the "deeper" strings— like less common recipes or major discipline lore descriptions— to be wrong and to be corrected gradually over time, getting better with each LQA/consistency pass. However, we did an LQA pass a few months back that should have caught the most obvious issues, and the lobby buttons are the first thing you see in the game; keeping GEWÖLBE rather than changing it to TRESOR is particularly troubling, as is Starter Worlds, the first thing we want new users to click on, being translated incorrectly... This is not acceptable. Even things like crafting stations being mistranslated can be a very serious issue in a game that is already hard to figure out.

I am going to relay your feedback directly to our vendor and see how many meaningful changes we can make in either a hotfix or the first post-launch patch. I'm also going to have them review the previous feedback posts (again) to make sure those suggestions were taken seriously.

As always, thank you for your time and thank you for your patience. We do not want to be "one of those companies" and we will put in the time and effort to get our localized game clients to an acceptable standard.

Expect improvements soon.

Max

Max Lancaster, ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.

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Did you guys consider stuff like https://www.localizor.com/ ?

It costs pretty much nothing, the dev created it for his own game but figured that it might be a good thing to share it with others for a really tiny fee.. i think it was like 20 dollars per month?

The Community can translate the game and the advantage of this process is clear, because the community has the guys who actually know what these strings mean, what they do and how they can be translated correctly. Ppl can vote on translations to get the best outcome and ppl like Kraahk could be assigned as overwatcher who can turn things arround if someone is trolling etc. It worked great for MO2, which I was part of for the german part.

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1 hour ago, MiracleMax said:

Hi @Kraahk and @Koerpermilch,

Thank you again for your feedback. I intended to reply to Kraahk's post last week but between the craziness of launch preparation and some unexpected forum breakages, I wasn't able to. Sorry for the delay.

A few notes about our process below:

First, we do read, collect, and share the posts that you make here, and we greatly appreciate them. Localization on an MMO with a small team is an enormous undertaking. There are thousands and thousands of strings, aggressive schedules, and in many cases unique game design mechanics that are challenging for outside vendors to translate correctly the first time around. There are typically 3-5 weeks of lead time required for each batch of strings we send over as we change existing strings or add new ones between milestones, and during that time, we constantly trade messages with the vendor's teams clarifying the meanings of certain terms in context.

During that time we also immediately fall behind, because Design has to continue working on the game (adding and changing strings before the current batch is even translated and integrated). That means even at launch, there are going to be some strings missing or untranslated. The alternative would be that we basically tell Design to stop adding/updating game data for several weeks, which I think you'd agree is not currently feasible. This is generally what causes the "missing" translations.

Sometimes, there are also technical blips where changes to string files are not recognized— so the English version changes but the translator is never aware that they need to update the field in other languages— or other times, we encounter issues where strings are simply too long to fit in a field (a common problem in German), or where an input error from either side leads to broken strings which need to be reviewed and repaired individually. (Or, my favorite, someone on our side accidentally forgets to set a field up to be localized, so it never gets picked up in the export in the first place!) Each time we uncover a problem like this, we try to iron it out and prevent it from happening in the future... But it all takes time.

My point here is this: localization is always going to be a bit behind and a bit wrong, but should improve more and more (and be wrong less and less) as development continues. Your feedback does make that happen faster, even if it doesn't always feel like that's the case.

@MiracleMax i am not german but your answer is a bit annoying for me cause we got the same kind of problem for french translation and when you said there are 3-5 weeks required for change strings i am pretty upset to see that after more than 2 YEARS  telling you TALENT TREE is WRONG/ FALSE / WITH BAD INFO choose what you want nothing is fixed! Launch is tomorow and many player will come try the game in french lvl a caracter spends point and will suddenly realize they made too much mistake and they have to make another caracter ! So they'll give up we had many during alpha and beta already... 

I hope tomorow i will be surprise by an update on the translation but i really doubt ...
 

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1 hour ago, Makuza said:

Did you guys consider stuff like https://www.localizor.com/ ?

It costs pretty much nothing, the dev created it for his own game but figured that it might be a good thing to share it with others for a really tiny fee.. i think it was like 20 dollars per month?

The Community can translate the game and the advantage of this process is clear, because the community has the guys who actually know what these strings mean, what they do and how they can be translated correctly. Ppl can vote on translations to get the best outcome and ppl like Kraahk could be assigned as overwatcher who can turn things arround if someone is trolling etc. It worked great for MO2, which I was part of for the german part.

That looks very similar to Crowdin.

Dauntless (Phoenix Labs) also did that for multiple languages using Crowdin as their translation tool. There were around 10 (some languages had more) translators per language, 2-3 really good ones who ended up being the approvers. If you have someone rather qualified for each language to filter through people who volunteer to participate and to approve strings, it can work out nicely.
Same people would also play the game in their native language and do ingame-QA naturally that way. If there was an issue somewhere, it was easy for them to flag it in Crowdin and suggest a fix themselves. 
They also had professionals come in from time to time to evaluate translation quality and give feedback to the community translators.
 

After a year and a few months they had people do ~ $120k worth of translation work "for free" if you take common industry rates.

Some people enjoy that stuff and I'm pretty sure there are native speakers capable and willing to help out if ACE would've supported it, especially if it was early enough.


 

Edited by Koerpermilch
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@Makuza @Koerpermilch

These are excellent suggestions. The localization feedback pipeline clearly needs some attention to help reduce latency. I've opened a dialogue with our vendor about using one of these services (or a similar one) and will keep you posted if it makes sense to go this route.

@royo 

The talent node issue is a frustrating one and I believe it is technical in nature. I thought it would be resolved in the most recent update, but QA has Reopened the bug. 

I'm having Tiggs add a note to the top of the launcher (in all supported languages) warning players of the misleading talent nodes and I've escalated the bug to Blocker priority. If we can repair the issue without touching code, we may be able to hotfix it into the launch version; if touching code is required, it may need to wait until the next release. I am hoping/pushing for the former.

This situation is not ideal, but this is all we can do for the moment. Thank you for holding us accountable. We'll get it fixed.
 

Max Lancaster, ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.

Follow us on Twitter @crowfallgame | Like us on Facebook

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Yeah, like Royo said it isnt just the german translation. The same happens in all other translations.

I for one can say the Pt-br translation is really, really bad. We tell newbies to change to English because you better off guessing what it means even if you dont actually speak english than trusting the translation.

And most of us have given a lot of feedback on it through the years, a lot. All of it was ignored. It isnt a matter of it taking a while to implement those.

Anyway, the idea of crowfunding the translation is awesome. If yall guarantee we will be listened to id be more than happy to put time on improving the Br translation.

Edited by BarriaKarl
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  • 2 weeks later...

Hey folks,

Translation improvements for the talent trees and lobby / menu were checked in to the hotfix branch for German, French and Spanish. Portuguese localization is still in-flight, but it is coming. These changes should be reflected on LIVE.

Accurate discipline and power descriptions are the next highest priority, but improvements based on your feedback are coming for the entirety of the game client - up to what we have translated so far (we are still a bit behind, but we don't want to translate any new strings until the current ones are solid and consistent). The rest of the localization should accompany our first major post-launch update.

Please let me know what you think of the changes in these specific areas (and please keep in mind that a consistency pass across the whole client is still in progress).

All the best,

Max

Max Lancaster, ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.

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@DravoiX Is that a power description? If so, those are still in the process of being fixed. I'm relieved to hear that the talent trees look better, but I'm concerned that the lobby hasn't been improved. Wonder if that's on our side or theirs... I will investigate. Thanks for checking.

Max Lancaster, ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.

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yeah its a mouse over power desciption in the talent tree. dunno if they are the same as the spellbook text or a short variant. if you give me more detailed information on what you guys need or want to check, I would give you a report. Most likely the translators have no access to the game, which makes game translation really hard.

 

edit some parts of the translations feel like beeing translated by google translate, most of the time because of the missing game context. This is an existing problem in most crowfall translations no matter the language. The Glossary of translated words in crowfall is sadly not consistent. Also, @MiracleMax could you focus on the translation of the tutorial?

Edited by DravoiX
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Just as a side note: It would be much (and I mean MUCH) easier for us to provide feedback, if we wouldn't have to start the client, change the language, close the client, restart the client and login (and load) again, if we wanted to check out even one single term.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Dear @MiracleMax,

I have read all your answers and explanations and I appreciate them, though I already know most of this because, well, that's what I am being told for years. Anyways, thanks for your time. I know you are busy with much other stuff, so I only reply when there is something new ... like german translation mentioned in the update notes.

10FJmF6.jpg


I'll only point out three examples. I will do much less words and much more pictures. No offense meant by this, it's just that I am trying something new.

 

But before I do I would like to ask you for one thing.

After you read those three examples, please tell me: What am I supposed to think, or do, or believe, or even hope for. Regarding the translations issues. Thank you.

 

 

Example 1

On 7/5/2021 at 8:59 PM, MiracleMax said:

[...] the lobby buttons are the first thing you see in the game; keeping GEWÖLBE rather than changing it to TRESOR is particularly troubling, as is Starter Worlds, the first thing we want new users to click on, being translated incorrectly... This is not acceptable. Even things like crafting stations being mistranslated can be a very serious issue in a game that is already hard to figure out.

I am going to relay your feedback directly to our vendor and see how many meaningful changes we can make in either a hotfix or the first post-launch patch. [...]


Before Launch, pointed out in my first posting in this thread.

dajHIf2.jpg


Now, after "updated german translations" and your quoted statement, two-and-a-half weeks later.

Kwejzsd.jpg

Find the difference. Hm? Yep, right, the campaign name changed. Good eyes. :) I know, it's only 2.5 weeks, and while the lobby should have a certain priority, just as you said, I understand if there are other more urgent things, so it may take a while.

Speaking of a while...

 

Example 2

On 7/5/2021 at 8:59 PM, MiracleMax said:

[...] First, we do read, collect, and share the posts that you make here, and we greatly appreciate them. Localization on an MMO with a small team is an enormous undertaking. There are thousands and thousands of strings, aggressive schedules, and in many cases unique game design mechanics that are challenging for outside vendors to translate correctly the first time around. There are typically 3-5 weeks of lead time required for each batch of strings we send over as we change existing strings or add new ones between milestones, and during that time, we constantly trade messages with the vendor's teams clarifying the meanings of certain terms in context. [...]

The last time this has been reported by myself was in January, here. It has been reported before. And after. It has been reported by others. Verstecken means hiding.

iZPorRR.jpg


If you don't believe me, use a translator. And no, I don't mean the people who are trying to translate Crowfall, but a device. Or an internet library. Something not human. Like this:

mFyhiZy.jpg

 

Do you see the issue?

This is one of the four basic resource types. Wood, Stone, Ore, Hide. AND IT IS WRONG! For years. And I am telling so for years. And I am told over and over again that translations are taken serious, and that it sometimes may take a while, and that all is read and considered. Well, consider this: What will people think about such a blantantly wrong translation, and about a company simply not fixing it, no matter how hard and long and often the community tries to make them aware of the issue?

OK, sometimes things just slip through. I get that. It's completely human. As long as those things that actually get changed are good, then it's just a matter of time.

But still, I sometimes feel like Pavlov's pig, with translations being my apple and the translators being the scientists laughing their asses of while I move in circles. And it's not a nice feeling, I tell ya.

Edited by Kraahk
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*Deleted the third point in the post above, because I was wrong. Pfefferdosenschuss didn't get changed to Steinschlossgewehrschuss. I accidently looked at the flintlock shot skill, instead of pepperbox shot. Pepperbox is still Pfefferdose (which is a pepper shaker), and flintlock has already been Steinschlossgewehr (flintlock musket - which, you know, it is not, because it's a pistol in game) before. So it's not that one thing got changed to something just as bad, but it's two things that stayed bad. My bad. ;)

______________________

 

Ok, as compenation I'll take a short look at the shadow campaign. Let's take the divine favor details.

Original:

yrvtmgX.jpg

 

Translation:

e376Eqs.jpg

 

From top to bottom, from left to right.

Conquest: Not translated. Should be "Eroberung"

Event Schedule: Translated to "Belagerungsplan" = Siege Plan. Obviously not updated.

Favor: 4/5 are correct. Favor in this context is "Gunst". But where the points are listed, it says "Gefallen", which can mean favor, but also means "fallen" (warriors), "fallen" (down) and (finding a) "liking" (in someone). So where it counts especially, showing the points, it's wrong.

Close Details: Format error. "Details Schließe" means "Details do-close". There is simply an "n" missing at the end. "Details schließen" would be correct. Got cut off by the text field I suppose.

Wealth and Power: Two of the three pillars of the game ... translated badly. To "Wohlstand" (wealth in the meaning of prosperity/well-being) and "Kraft" (power in the meaning of force/effect).  And it's not as if nobody did it better. Actually, on the mainpage the correct words are used: Reichtum and Macht. Which is good that it's there ... but then again also means that there are different translations within Crowfall for the same words. And crucial words - pillars of the game, right?

Factions: Translated to "Gilden" = guilds. Probably a missing update. But confusing, because people may think what their rewards will depend on their guilds ranking and not their factions.

 

Underhill:  Translated to "Unterirdisch"

~sigh~

You know, I gave up even trying to point out the special importance of good translations, when it comes to puns and references. Those are important, they create a certain flair, they do magic, they make experiencing a game something special and are a seed for so much more - and therefore it is quite useful, when they are translated accordingly well. Anyways, I did that so many times and with no significant effect, so these days I don't point them out anymore. I point out things like "after years [blabla] two of three pillar-of-the-game and one of four basic-resource-category translations are abysmal".

So let's forget for a moment that "Underhill" was the cover name Frodo Baggins used in Lord of the Rings (and that therefore an established official translation for this word exists ... which, btw., is NOT unterirdisch (it's "Unterberg", just so you know)), and just take up on my last keyword: abysmal.

For that's what this translation is. Literally. Technically "Unterirdisch" means "underground"/"subterranean", but is also colloquially and quite often used to express how bad something is. In these regards it's the german equivalent for abysmal.

So what people would understand when reading this, and not having met or looked at the guinea tribes before, is that they would have to sacrifice subterranean or very-very-bad-quality artifacts.

Why Underhill is not translated literally or according to the LotR reference (which in both cases is "Unterberg") or even something more neutral like Untergrund (underground), I neither know nor understand.

Edited by Kraahk
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