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Nerf Warden


PopeUrban
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44 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

Its too good.

Why bother elaborating when you can just make statements with no context. 

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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13 minutes ago, mandalore said:

Why bother elaborating when you can just make statements with no context. 

People told me my posts were too long.

LMAO my website is broken please click this to apply to Flames of Exile (maybe, if that's not busted too)

On 5/11/2015 at 1:48 PM, CAWCAWCAW said:

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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1 hour ago, PopeUrban said:

People told me my posts were too long.

Sometimes they are.  This post however offers nothing other than some whinging without context. 

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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27 minutes ago, UnderGrowth said:

Only people who don't actually play the game would need context.

Nah just tired of everybody complaining about it but nobody can actually say what about it is broken.  You can't even pinpoint whats broken about it, you just mirror what others say.  Rhea said Blackguards counter it...

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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tbh there too good probaly because they do way to much AOE dmg with the survivability they get from barriers from traps along with constant CC. There a DPS tank with alot of CC they got it all along with range and melee options.

1 change i would make that bring them inline i think would be to have traps no longer stun when they unlock warden. Have the concussion traps grant a barrier but no longer stun instead of just doing barriers. 
Makes the class a little less obnoxious but with the aoe dmg from traps and survivability they should still be in a good spot but not over the top.

 

Edited by veeshan

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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The trap master skill is probably the biggest offender in the warden kit, but unfortunately also it's identity. Couple the things that Veeshan has mentioned with how ridiculously well damage scales on a Bow + Quiver combo at high end gear, and it becomes quickly apparent why Warden's are so oppressive to fight in small or large scale. The changes to retaliate in regards to the stamina interaction has exacerbated the CC aspect.

Even the typical dot and black mantle removers feel very useless against wardens, due to the pacing of when traps are released, re applying just as the small immunity window ( if you can even get the skill off in time) runs out. After they changed Ultimates to no longer remove DoT's, this aspect got significantly stronger as well.

I think one of the biggest changes they could make, that would in turn not hurt the other two specializations, is to remove the ability for trap master traps to be activated from ranged damage and force warden's into melee. This will also force Warden's to be much more subject to the current energy management constraints, which they currently avoid by utilizing Rapid Fire and Barrage.

There is then the frequency of the Ultimate, though I am reluctant for much to change on this front just simply because it would hurt the other two specs far more from any changes. Instead they should probably target the barrier aspect of their sustain.

One thought, is they could make the trap master skill itself an ultimate, This would force a decision of either it for more offensive, or sustain for more defense, whilst maintaining some identity to the warden as being a trap specialist.

25 minutes ago, mandalore said:

Nah just tired of everybody complaining about it but nobody can actually say what about it is broken.  You can't even pinpoint whats broken about it, you just mirror what others say.  Rhea said Blackguards counter it...

I equally tire of seeing the sheer amount of low value added posts that come from you also.

Edited by UnderGrowth
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27 minutes ago, UnderGrowth said:

The trap master skill is probably the biggest offender in the warden kit, but unfortunately also it's identity. Couple the things that Veeshan has mentioned with how ridiculously well damage scales on a Bow + Quiver combo at high end gear, and it becomes quickly apparent why Warden's are so oppressive to fight in small or large scale. The changes to retaliate in regards to the stamina interaction has exacerbated the CC aspect.

Even the typical dot and black mantle removers feel very useless against wardens, due to the pacing of when traps are released, re applying just as the small immunity window ( if you can even get the skill off in time) runs out. After they changed Ultimates to no longer remove DoT's, this aspect got significantly stronger as well.

I think one of the biggest changes they could make, that would in turn not hurt the other two specializations, is to remove the ability for trap master traps to be activated from ranged damage and force warden's into melee. This will also force Warden's to be much more subject to the current energy management constraints, which they currently avoid by utilizing Rapid Fire and Barrage.

There is then the frequency of the Ultimate, though I am reluctant for much to change on this front just simply because it would hurt the other two specs far more from any changes. Instead they should probably target the barrier aspect of their sustain.

I equally tire of seeing the sheer amount of low value added posts that come from you also.

Yeah i wouldnt touch the ulti i feel the other 2 specs desperatly need it still, archer drop to fast if they mess up ulti allows them to recover if they manage to get distance and brigand need it to to sustain since there burst is weaker than other stealth classes it seems they need that little bit more sustain to give them a chance to win since they ant restealth.

The main issue i find with warden more than anything is there oppressive nature with trap master there dmg there survivability is fine i think they do less dmg in range generaly speaking since they dont get double shot from archer tree and they mnove half speed with bow so i think thats fair trade off if you simple remove the traps stunning in the warden line i think its fine or atleast when trapmaster is active those traps should not stun.

This removes the oppressive nature of the warden and allows them to still be built range and melee which is a unique thing to themself (I wish they made warden there main thing personaly over traps) ill go into what i would personaly do at the end for wardens which is alot different than current wardens.
if stun got removed with trapmaster then there single target dmgf would be weaker than other 2 options for archer however there aoe dmg will be highest and wont be so supressive.

There options realy are one of the two
Option A - Make them a dmg class and remove there stuns fropm traps to make them less oppresiive
Option B - Keep there stun but lower there dmg output and put them inline with other CC classes

Now for what i would do for ranger tree

Archer line - Similiar to what it is heavy single target dmg
Future class split Arcane archer and shooter, arcane archer is more elemental with aoe type focus, sharphooter specilised in single target dmg and finishing low hp targets behind people (Low dmg like 100-200dmg  line attack that does 10 times the dmg when hitting somone under 20% for example)

Warden - Remove there trap heavy kit and make there key feature about weapon swapping which no other class gets they should gain buffs when they swap weapons.
Swapping to range - Grants a buff that increases there next power dmg by 100%
Swapping to Melee - Grants 25% life steal for 6 seconds
Warden skill altering
Forest step -
Basic bow attacks charged above 90% grants a buff when you get 3 of these buffs they get removed and forest step cooldown is reset
Disengage - Melee attacks that hit grants a buff when you get 10 buffs resets cooldown on disengage
Rapid shot - Rapid shot restores 100 energy every time it hits
Future class split one more focused on range and other melee

Brigand - Brigand should be the trap spec, give them a passive upon exiting stealth they gain the trap master buff for 20 seconds or something as one of the talent options in the brigand tree.
Future class split one stealth melee and one stealth ranged focused or something



 

Edited by veeshan

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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16 minutes ago, UnderGrowth said:

 

Even the typical dot and black mantle removers feel very useless against wardens, due to the pacing of when traps are released, re applying just as the small immunity window ( if you can even get the skill off in time) runs out. After they changed Ultimates to no longer remove DoT's, this aspect got significantly stronger as well.

 

That seems like a legitimate concern that the devs should be aware of.  Part of counter play to healing is also the counter play to the anti healing itself.   If you can apply it faster passively than somebody can actively remove it then that's just a bad loop. 

It's hard to know they are just over tuned or people aren't countering them.  I suspect its more of the former but it's also some of the latter.  Just remember our Class Dev in charge of balance says Blackguards counter them...  I assume part of the problem is them min maxxing for traps and it being so strong.  I struggle to think of any thing else in the game where you can have so many passives directly buffing one ability so much.  All their minors are directly useful to one power house ability.  It substantially increases their dmg and utility and it does it all passively.  Passive play should rarely be stronger than smart active play, if ever.  

 

19 minutes ago, UnderGrowth said:

I equally tire of seeing the sheer amount of low value added posts that come from you also.

Feel free to ignore me or report my posts to the community manager if you feel they violate the tos. 

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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1 minute ago, veeshan said:

Yeah i wouldnt touch the ulti i feel the other 2 specs desperatly need it still, archer drop to fast if they mess up ulti allows them to recover if they manage to get distance and brigand need it to to sustain since there burst is weaker than other stealth classes it seems they need that little bit more sustain to give them a chance to win since they ant restealth.

The main issue i find with warden more than anything is there oppressive nature with trap master there dmg there survivability is fine i think they do less dmg in range generaly speaking since they dont get double shot from archer tree and they mnove half speed with bow so i think thats fair trade off if you simple remove the traps stunning in the warden line i think its fine or atleast when trapmaster is active those traps should not stun.

This removes the oppressive nature of the warden and allows them to still be built range and melee which is a unique thing to themself (I wish they made warden there main thing personaly over traps) ill go into what i would personaly do at the end for wardens which is alot different than current wardens.
if stun got removed with trapmaster then there single target dmgf would be weaker than other 2 options for archer however there aoe dmg will be highest and wont be so supressive.

There options realy are one of the two
Option A - Make them a dmg class and remove there stuns fropm traps to make them less oppresiive
Option B - Keep there stun but lower there dmg output and put them inline with other CC classes

Now for what i would do for ranger tree

Archer line - Similiar to what it is heavy single target dmg
Warden - Remove there trap heavy kit and make there key feature about weapon swapping which no other class gets they should gain buffs when they swap weapons.
Swapping to range - Grants a buff that increases there next power dmg by 100%
Swapping to Melee - Grants 25% life steal for 6 seconds
Warden skill altering
Forest step -
Basic bow attacks charged above 90% grants a buff when you get 3 of these buffs they get removed and forest step cooldown is reset
Disengage - Melee attacks that hit grants a buff when you get 10 buffs resets cooldown on disengage
Rapid shot - Rapid shot restores 100 energy every time it hits

Brigand - Brigand should be the trap spec, give them a passive upon exiting stealth they gain the trap master buff for 20 seconds or something as one of the talent options in the brigand tree.


 

Just make it to they can only have X trap minor disc at a time instead of what they have now.  Slow incremental changes will always work better than massive shifts to trees. 

 

One big problem with this game is the difference in top performing classes and the bottom.  The vast chasm of class balance is appalling. 

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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6 minutes ago, mandalore said:

Just make it to they can only have X trap minor disc at a time instead of what they have now.  Slow incremental changes will always work better than massive shifts to trees. 

 

One big problem with this game is the difference in top performing classes and the bottom.  The vast chasm of class balance is appalling. 

they gotta find an anchor class one they love where its is position with str/weakness then trying and bring everyone else up and down to meet that one in power level

Edit: They also need more unique feeling in a few of the classes too. like wtf does a knight do thats cool about them for example they got nothing realy setting themself apart or feel from others.
 

Edited by veeshan

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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Just now, veeshan said:

they gotta find an anchor class one they love where its is position with str/weakness then trying and bring everyone else up and down to meet that one in power level

I agree with that.  Lets make it Radicals.  Lets bring everybody down to radicals. 

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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1 minute ago, mandalore said:

I agree with that.  Lets make it Radicals.  Lets bring everybody down to radicals. 

doesnt matter which one they pick but they need to pick one and stick with it :P

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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7 minutes ago, veeshan said:

Option B - Keep there stun but lower there dmg output and put them inline with other CC classes

I dislike this option entirely, because both Fury and Sentinal are so atrociously bad in the current state of the game. The Sentinal obviously suffers from a lot of the longstanding knight issues (Like seriously the knight needs some serious love in terms of it's base kit and block system) And the Fury is just such an under performing spec that I think even Sentinal does marginally better than it.

The point being, is bringing the Warden down as the CC class might be overkill.

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Just now, UnderGrowth said:

I dislike this option entirely, because both Fury and Sentinal are so atrociously bad in the current state of the game. The Sentinal obviously suffers from a lot of the longstanding knight issues (Like seriously the knight needs some serious love in terms of it's base kit and block system) And the Fury is just such an under performing spec that I think even Sentinal does marginally better than it.

The point being, is bringing the Warden down as the CC class might be overkill.

I think the problem lies in just how many passives can be stacked on traps.  It can bleed, burn, farie fire, black mantle, tickle, file your taxes and steal your girl.  It's just too much. 

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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1 minute ago, UnderGrowth said:

I dislike this option entirely, because both Fury and Sentinal are so atrociously bad in the current state of the game. The Sentinal obviously suffers from a lot of the longstanding knight issues (Like seriously the knight needs some serious love in terms of it's base kit and block system) And the Fury is just such an under performing spec that I think even Sentinal does marginally better than it.

The point being, is bringing the Warden down as the CC class might be overkill.

that option is the worst atm cause of where CC classes stand atm they need a complete rework as it is they need a unique way to counter retaliate in there talents.
Sentinel could disable retaliate for example with shield bash for say 6 seconds so they can shield bash then get full stun off
Assasins CC class gets the stam drain to get through retaliate issue
Fury CC could apply a debuff where if target retaliates they take 500 holy dmg or something.
Wardens in option B could get there trapmaster buffed to last longer or less cooldown so it can be used more consistantly to interupt groups constantly sicne they would do less dmg with it for example.

That options only bad cause they dont know how to make CC classes work with retaliate lol

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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4 minutes ago, mandalore said:

I think the problem lies in just how many passives can be stacked on traps.  It can bleed, burn, farie fire, black mantle, tickle, file your taxes and steal your girl.  It's just too much. 

it is a discipline slot each time though so there is a disadvantage there. they stil do to much dmg if you include the CC oppression though

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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2 minutes ago, veeshan said:

that option is the worst atm cause of where CC classes stand atm they need a complete rework as it is they need a unique way to counter retaliate in there talents.
Sentinel could disable retaliate for example with shield bash for say 6 seconds so they can shield bash then get full stun off
Assasins CC class gets the stam drain to get through retaliate issue
Fury CC could apply a debuff where if target retaliates they take 500 holy dmg or something.
Wardens in option B could get there trapmaster buffed to last longer or less cooldown so it can be used more consistantly to interupt groups constantly sicne they would do less dmg with it for example.

That options only bad cause they dont know how to make CC classes work with retaliate lol

And that's not accounting for the plethora of ways to either be CC immune or break free, even outside ultimates. Also please, no more Holy damage, they need to remove holy damage as a basically true damage from the game, not add more. It already deletes the massive investment cost of armor class and resistances at the press of a button, or in the clerics case, the simple allocation of a passive talent.

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