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Walpurgisnacht

To Ace: Please Don't Forget About Consoles

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It's not entirely out of the realm of possibility but its one of those things we will consider much MUCH further down the road.

 

Is it rude to "Boooooo" an Artcraft member :)

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No consoles. I am not an elitist, but it's proven mouse and keyboard is more effective towards action and aiming based games. PC gamers wreck console gamers because hands are more accurate than thumbs. Period. The aspects that I would like to see involved are not console friendly, such as multiple menus and other such things that would otherwise be ridiculously clumsy on consoles.

 

If I could have it my way I would own a PC, PS4, and Xbone. That said, I am against MMO's on console in general unless they were specifically designed for it and thus run systems that are efficient for controllers.

Edited by Funpire

 

 

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"Keeping the console in mind" would already cause enough trouble and result in a huge waste of resources and time. Consoles have completely different needs than PCs. The (G)UI has to be done in a completely different way, you need assisted aiming for FPS elements, you can't do multiple different tasks at once (e.g. running + casting a spell + searching and using something in your inventory), you have way less keys to bind actions to (using ESDF to move you have 16 keys to use for your left hand plus 10-16 for your mouse and that times 4 if you also utilize SHIFT, CTRL and ALT), ... and so on.

Creating a game with consoles in mind is not a simple task, it's quite an effort and takes away from the experience a PC-only game could be.

 

Sorry, but that's just ...

There are only very few genres where a gamepad is superior to m&k (e.g. twinstick shooters), in any other case m&k is far superior (unless of course you cheat by using stuff like aided aiming).

 

 

Consoles have their place and quite some games are more enjoyable with a gamepad than they are with m&k (Brothers is a prime example for that), but they also have huge downsides compared to PCs, and I am not talking graphics and performance here.

 

 

 

If you do plz run a second kickstarter to check whether or not it is worth it first.

I don't know a lot about game development but how is keeping consoles in mind is a waste of resources and time? The whole point of it is to conserve resources and time, and to prevent future trouble when they do decide on it.

 

You are correct that the UI would have to be very different and depending on how important aiming is, assisted aiming may be necessary. These things don't really seem that earthshattering to me though and aren't what I was talking about when I said "keep consoles in mind". They're pretty basic and I doubt they would cause any trouble.

 

In console games, you can run and while doing other things like shooting. However, running while navigating your inventory is not possible unless you autorun. Running while navigating your inventory is also a hassle on PC, this is why developers allow you to bind items to your hotbar. Even if it were a real issue, It's not exactly something to not make a game over.

 

While we don't know much about how this game plays, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it probably won't require the use of 32 buttons to function. Even if that were the case, it wouldn't be an issue. FFXIV on PS4 gives you 8 buttons, L1+8 buttons (like shift, alt, etc.), R1+8 buttons, etc.

 

There are plenty of games in which using a controller is better than a mouse and keyboard. Would you play Batman: Arkham City or Bayonetta using a keyboard? I wouldn't. The use of a controller should be much more intuitive in Crowfall than in a tab targeting game like FFXIV (which pulled it off expertly, btw). In fact, I expect the game to have controller support on PC.

 

Using a controller over mouse + keyboard will not put console players at a disadvantage in this game. This may happen in FPS's but not in action games.

 

I am getting the sense that the word "console" for some PC users is like the word "communism" in the U.S. A word that is automatically equated to bad before people even think. Without using mental gymnastics, can anyone explain to me how I would be disadvantaged using a controller to play as a knight?

It's not entirely out of the realm of possibility but its one of those things we will consider much MUCH further down the road.

I appreciate you responding even with all the threats in this thread of people pulling funding if you used the word "console".

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It's not entirely out of the realm of possibility but its one of those things we will consider much MUCH further down the road.

*gasp*

 

Don't do it


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*gasp*

 

Don't do it

Just so you know, ACE already said that console versions and tablet versions were not out of the question (just that tablet was unlikely due to control/UI issues). I think it was in the General FAQ but they must have removed it because of the people in this thread.

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Keeping consoles in mind requires more than just thinking "and one day, we will port this to consoles" every two months or so. If you want to save time later you have to spend some time and money early on. Everything you do, every system you design, every piece of code you write has to be capable of not only supporting PC but also consoles. And that is a lot of work cos PCs and consoles handle quite differently.

 

A console gamer doesn't even have half as many keys at his disposal as a PC gamer, aiming without some sort of auto aiming - which is something you can't have in a competitive cross platform game at all - is a nightmare and operating on different layers (e.g. inventory + char screen + game world) at the same time is something that also doesn't really work with a controller.

Or what about placing an AoE while moving? A pretty standard task in a MMORPG that can be done very easily with m&k. But when you are forced to use a gamepad you will lose precision.

I give you that gamepads are the way to go for hack and slash games like Batman, God of War, Bayonetta and so on, but these games are also not about precision.

 

"Console" doesn't always mean bad, there are quite a few great games on console (e.g. the already mentioned Bayonetta). What however makes them bad is when devs design "PC games" with "consoles in mind" cos that leads to clunky interfaces (hello Diablo 3), auto aim nonsense (does anyone remember that dreadful Shadowrun FPS?), multiple actions being bound to the same freaking key (I am talking about you Assassine's Creed, Watch Dogs and friends), horrible drawing distances (pretty much every game that has also been released on console) and so on.

 

If the devs want to port CF to consoles in a few years I am fine with the. Start a new Kickstarter, ask for a 1-3kk bucks to pay a team to do it and open the game to a new market. But make the best PC game you can first, don't let consoles limit you.

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Using a controller over mouse + keyboard will not put console players at a disadvantage in this game. This may happen in FPS's but not in action games.

This is not an action game. This is an MMO.


7ug90hM.png


 


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Keeping consoles in mind requires more than just thinking "and one day, we will port this to consoles" every two months or so. If you want to save time later you have to spend some time and money early on. Everything you do, every system you design, every piece of code you write has to be capable of not only supporting PC but also consoles. And that is a lot of work cos PCs and consoles handle quite differently.

 

A console gamer doesn't even have half as many keys at his disposal as a PC gamer, aiming without some sort of auto aiming - which is something you can't have in a competitive cross platform game at all - is a nightmare and operating on different layers (e.g. inventory + char screen + game world) at the same time is something that also doesn't really work with a controller.

Or what about placing an AoE while moving? A pretty standard task in a MMORPG that can be done very easily with m&k. But when you are forced to use a gamepad you will lose precision.

I give you that gamepads are the way to go for hack and slash games like Batman, God of War, Bayonetta and so on, but these games are also not about precision.

 

"Console" doesn't always mean bad, there are quite a few great games on console (e.g. the already mentioned Bayonetta). What however makes them bad is when devs design "PC games" with "consoles in mind" cos that leads to clunky interfaces (hello Diablo 3), auto aim nonsense (does anyone remember that dreadful Shadowrun FPS?), multiple actions being bound to the same freaking key (I am talking about you Assassine's Creed, Watch Dogs and friends), horrible drawing distances (pretty much every game that has also been released on console) and so on.

 

If the devs want to port CF to consoles in a few years I am fine with the. Start a new Kickstarter, ask for a 1-3kk bucks to pay a team to do it and open the game to a new market. But make the best PC game you can first, don't let consoles limit you.

 

I already responded to the keys thing, basically, it's not an actual issue. Auto-aiming is absolutely not a necessity anymore. Killzone: Shadow Fall, an FPS, has no auto aim and that game is PS4 exclusive. I imagine that aiming would be less important in this game. Operating MMO menus works on consoles, please see FFXIV. Placing an AoE while moving is doable but cumbersome in FFXIV. Again, this is not an issue to where one should say "Well, guess we can't make a console version!" over. You are nitpicking.

There is a difference between designing a game to be accessible to random console users and designing a game's engine to be portable to consoles. I am not asking that they making this game like Assassin's Creed or Watch Dogs. This is a PC game first.

This is not an action game. This is an MMO.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

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I already responded to the keys thing, basically, it's not an actual issue.

Well ... you kinda didn't. Even in Vanila WoW raids you needed more buttons than a modern gamepad has to offer (even when using LT and RT as shift and alt) to do a decent job. And WoW is a pretty slow, PvE focused, tab targeting game.

 

Auto-aiming is absolutely not a necessity anymore. Killzone: Shadow Fall, an FPS, has no auto aim and that game is PS4 exclusive.

Yes, and it's not cross platform. If it would be, m&g gamers would wipe the floor with gamepad gamers pretty easily.

 

Operating MMO menus works on consoles, please see FFXIV.

It's doable but that's it. It's still cumbersome as custard.

 

Placing an AoE while moving is doable but cumbersome in FFXIV. Again, this is not an issue to where one should say "Well, guess we can't make a console version!" over. You are nitpicking.

I am not nitpicking. Being able to place an AoE while moving precisely is a pretty basic task, it's something I expect to be in pretty much every action based MMORPG. If such a basic and easy task turns into something cumbersome on consoles chances are that people won't enjoy it which, in turn, encourages devs not to rely on it which probably leads to it not being in the game (if the game is designed with consoles in mind).

 

There is a difference between designing a game to be accessible to random console users and designing a game's engine to be portable to consoles. I am not asking that they making this game like Assassin's Creed or Watch Dogs. This is a PC game first.

The engine is not the problem here, PS4 and XBox one are basically pretty weak PCs, it's not that hard to get a PC engine to work on them. Our concerns are all about mechanics, about stuff that works great and adds complexity on PC but is clunky and not enjoyable on consoles cos they rely on gamepads, players sit further away from the screen and so on.

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This is not an action game. This is an MMO.

 

I don't care what you call it. If it has action based combat and requires aiming (bow/spells) or even moving a cone around, mouse has the advantage. Furthermore, it breaks up the player base. Some leave the PC version to play the console version, now you have a segmented player base and both games suffer for it. Stupid idea all the way around. It cannibalizes it's own player base.


 

 

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Well ... you kinda didn't. Even in Vanila WoW raids you needed more buttons than a modern gamepad has to offer (even when using LT and RT as shift and alt) to do a decent job. And WoW is a pretty slow, PvE focused, tab targeting game.

 

Yes, and it's not cross platform. If it would be, m&g gamers would wipe the floor with gamepad gamers pretty easily.

 

It's doable but that's it. It's still cumbersome as custard.

 

I am not nitpicking. Being able to place an AoE while moving precisely is a pretty basic task, it's something I expect to be in pretty much every action based MMORPG. If such a basic and easy task turns into something cumbersome on consoles chances are that people won't enjoy it which, in turn, encourages devs not to rely on it which probably leads to it not being in the game (if the game is designed with consoles in mind).

 

The engine is not the problem here, PS4 and XBox one are basically pretty weak PCs, it's not that hard to get a PC engine to work on them. Our concerns are all about mechanics, about stuff that works great and adds complexity on PC but is clunky and not enjoyable on consoles cos they rely on gamepads, players sit further away from the screen and so on.

253627.jpg

 

It's not rocket science. You have access to any 2 hotbars with 8 buttons each (maybe there was a 3rd? L1+R2? idk) at any one time and can cycle to 6 more. Does it take some getting used to? Yes. But if someone is serious about playing the game, they can become quite adept at it in a reasonable amount of time. Crowfall is not vanilla WoW, it's not even FFXIV. Controlling Crowfall with a controller will be much more intuitive and easy with this method. I just remembered that Crowfall uses an aiming reticle so casting AoEs while moving shouldn't be much more difficult than shooting a rocket while moving.

 

It really does feel like you are nitpicking. You keep on pointing out relatively minor issues and acting as if they are game-breaking things that should prevent a console release, while I keep on responding with simple solutions.

 

ACE is making the game that they want to make. I don't think a console version would change that. FFXIV is still a complex game and with mechanics that aren't "dumbed down".

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I don't care what you call it. If it has action based combat and requires aiming (bow/spells) or even moving a cone around, mouse has the advantage. Furthermore, it breaks up the player base. Some leave the PC version to play the console version, now you have a segmented player base and both games suffer for it. Stupid idea all the way around. It cannibalizes it's own player base.

Please read more than just the topic title next time.

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I don't know a lot about game development but how is keeping consoles in mind is a waste of resources and time? The whole point of it is to conserve resources and time, and to prevent future trouble when they do decide on it.

 

You are correct that the UI would have to be very different and depending on how important aiming is, assisted aiming may be necessary. These things don't really seem that earthshattering to me though and aren't what I was talking about when I said "keep consoles in mind". They're pretty basic and I doubt they would cause any trouble.

 

In console games, you can run and while doing other things like shooting. However, running while navigating your inventory is not possible unless you autorun. Running while navigating your inventory is also a hassle on PC, this is why developers allow you to bind items to your hotbar. Even if it were a real issue, It's not exactly something to not make a game over.

 

While we don't know much about how this game plays, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it probably won't require the use of 32 buttons to function. Even if that were the case, it wouldn't be an issue. FFXIV on PS4 gives you 8 buttons, L1+8 buttons (like shift, alt, etc.), R1+8 buttons, etc.

 

There are plenty of games in which using a controller is better than a mouse and keyboard. Would you play Batman: Arkham City or Bayonetta using a keyboard? I wouldn't. The use of a controller should be much more intuitive in Crowfall than in a tab targeting game like FFXIV (which pulled it off expertly, btw). In fact, I expect the game to have controller support on PC.

 

Using a controller over mouse + keyboard will not put console players at a disadvantage in this game. This may happen in FPS's but not in action games.

 

I am getting the sense that the word "console" for some PC users is like the word "communism" in the U.S. A word that is automatically equated to bad before people even think. Without using mental gymnastics, can anyone explain to me how I would be disadvantaged using a controller to play as a knight?

I appreciate you responding even with all the threats in this thread of people pulling funding if you used the word "console".

 

Its 2 different projects. You cant make a pc game and just easily run it on consoles, its another game. The issues come with the fact that you need to design ur mechanics with both platforms in minds and controllers / the screen and the hardware and many other factors severely limited what you can do on the computer. Due to the weak hardware specc of consoles games are highly specialized on the specific hardware set on a console so they still look good / run good. For computers you need to consider a million different hardware combinations. This has nothing to do with pc elitism - its just that you dont have any clue what it means to create a game for both platforms it requires severe tradeoffs that ppl here dont want for this game.

Edited by Vyore

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It's not entirely out of the realm of possibility but its one of those things we will consider much MUCH further down the road.

Honestly I'd be happy if you just added in game XBone controller support.

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Its 2 different projects. You cant make a pc game and just easily run it on consoles, its another game. The issues come with the fact that you need to design ur mechanics with both platforms in minds and controllers / the screen and the hardware and many other factors severely limited what you can do on the computer. Due to the weak hardware specc of consoles games are highly specialized on the specific hardware set on a console so they still look good / run good. For computers you need to consider a million different hardware combinations. This has nothing to do with pc elitism - its just that you dont have any clue what it means to create a game for both platforms it requires severe tradeoffs that ppl here dont want for this game.

And what would these tradeoffs be? "Dumbing the game down"?

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