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timetraveler

My Issue With Certain Tera Combat Mechanics

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Everything the video says about WoW and GW2 being two separate mini games (manage your rotation and don't stand in the fire) should be engraved in a gold plaque and hung on any MMO studio's wall.

 

TERA relies more heavily on rotations than Guild Wars 2. Of course, you would know that if you played both of them.

Edited by frozenshadow

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Plan: Press 1 -> 3 -> 2 -> 5 = super damage

Actual: Press 1 -> 3 *gets focus targeted by enemy zerg and can't stop the animation to get away*

 

Animation canceling is actually a huge part of Tera, but being forced to commit to your actions is a good thing. It means you have to make decisions and pay for your mistakes, rather than being able to waltz in and out of combat mid-strike.

 

Don't think you are overly experienced with GW2 combat to be honest based off that comment. To respond to it though, collision with GW2 prevents what you are saying here.

 

I have a decent amount of experience playing GW2 WvWvW. Most of the major organized engagements most closely resemble two blobs of individuals orbiting around one another and dumping AoEs.

I attribute this to the decoupling between movement and ability usage, since aside from a few channeled abilities, the game never forces you into movement-based decisions. It's very easy to just circle strafe and dump mouse-targeted AOEs, especially as a caster.

 

In contrast, in Tera, if you want to hit someone, it's going to move you forward (for most classes). That tradeoff mechanic forces you to think about when to commit to a strike and when to back off. GW2, in contrast, never gives you a reason not to use one of your damage abilities if it's available. You aren't consuming any resources, and it's a zero-risk activity.

 

TERA relies more heavily on rotations than Guild Wars 2. Of course, you would know that if you played both of them.

 

Both Tera and GW2 have abilities that chain off of each other for combo effects. That's fine. The issue is that, like I said above, in GW2 you never have a reason not to use an ability if it's available and off GCD. Tera, on the other hand, forces you to make decisions because the forced positioning has a downside that puts you at risk.

Edited by recatek

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I fail to see how animation locking is a reason why Zerging is gonna be a problem, that's a whole team who will also have animation locking.

 

If you get caught by a whole zerg because of an animation lock, congrats. They either managed to hide an army or your dumb enough to get caught attacking in a situation you couldn't win.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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So if I see two people going to attack and my choice could be limited to either get hit by person 1, or take that static five steps to the right and get hit by person 2. When in comparison if I had full control over my character's movements and have enough hand eye coordination, I could take only three steps to the right and miss both attacks completely.

 

What if both systems are possible, where the more powerful the attack the more likely you get locked into an a combat animation. And a weaker attack allows for more control over your movement and combat and is in that sense somewhat spammable. Same for the hitbox potentially being larger, the more powerful the attack is.

 

I would find this a good compromise. One thing to consider with detailed physics and really fine control including actions like countering blocking is lag.

If you are in the US, you'll probably be fine, the rest of the world remains to be seen...

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Because Crowfall seems to be heavily inspired by the combat in TERA I've decided to create a video displaying the issues I have with certain combat mechanics.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aM_SDT9tyJQ

 

I agree with points 1-4, but it seems most of those things can be attributed to TERA having a "pseudo" FPS system rather than a proper FPS model. As for animation locking (point 5), I've mentioned elsewhere why I think forced movement decisions are a good thing.

 

So if I see two people going to attack and my choice could be limited to either get hit by person 1, or take that static five steps to the right and get hit by person 2. When in comparison if I had full control over my character's movements and have enough hand eye coordination, I could take only three steps to the right and miss both attacks completely.

 

That's only if you want to do damage, though. Tera doesn't always force you to move in arbitrary ways. You could easily move those three steps and avoid both attacks, but the price you would pay for doing so would be that you wouldn't be doing damage in return. It's a trade-off, which forces a tactical decision. That's exactly what I love about Tera, whereas in contrast in games where attacks are completely divorced from movement, you could have your cake and eat it too in that situation, and you wouldn't have to think about which option to choose.

 

 

What if both systems are possible, where the more powerful the attack the more likely you get locked into an a combat animation. And a weaker attack allows for more control over your movement and combat and is in that sense somewhat spammable. Same for the hitbox potentially being larger, the more powerful the attack is.

 

I would find this a good compromise. One thing to consider with detailed physics and really fine control including actions like countering blocking is lag.

If you are in the US, you'll probably be fine, the rest of the world remains to be seen...

 
Even in Tera, faster, lower-damage attacks require less forced movement. Compare the two classes shown in ThomasB's video, the berserker with the big axe/hammer, and the warrior with the two fast swords. Very different animation timings.
Edited by recatek

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I have a decent amount of experience playing GW2 WvWvW. Most of the major organized engagements most closely resemble two blobs of individuals orbiting around one another and dumping AoEs.

I attribute this to the decoupling between movement and ability usage, since aside from a few channeled abilities, the game never forces you into movement-based decisions. It's very easy to just circle strafe and dump mouse-targeted AOEs, especially as a caster.

 

In contrast, in Tera, if you want to hit someone, it's going to move you forward (for most classes). That tradeoff mechanic forces you to think about when to commit to a strike and when to back off. GW2, in contrast, never gives you a reason not to use one of your damage abilities if it's available. You aren't consuming any resources, and it's a zero-risk activity.

 

 

Both Tera and GW2 have abilities that chain off of each other for combo effects. That's fine. The issue is that, like I said above, in GW2 you never have a reason not to use an ability if it's available and off GCD. Tera, on the other hand, forces you to make decisions because the forced positioning has a downside that puts you at risk.

 

To respond to your first part, you are comparing game play vs combat system here. I am suggesting GW2 with some changes to it, I am referring strictly to combat system here not over all gameplay ... that video is misleading when looking strictly at the combat system in my opinion.

 

If you spam abilities as they come off cool down you weren't utlizing them the way they are intended as it actually had a pretty good sense of optimal utlization incorporated into the skills. The only skill a player should ever spam in GW2 would be the main attack as a filler. 

We don't have to argree, it's all good, because I am not asking for GW2 gameplay here, I am suggesting it is a decent system to look at to base crowfalls combat system.

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To respond to your first part, you are comparing game play vs combat system here. I am suggesting GW2 with some changes to it, I am referring strictly to combat system here not over all gameplay ... that video is misleading when looking strictly at the combat system in my opinion.

 

If you spam abilities as they come off cool down you weren't utlizing them the way they are intended as it actually had a pretty good sense of optimal utlization incorporated into the skills. The only skill a player should ever spam in GW2 would be the main attack as a filler. 

We don't have to argree, it's all good, because I am not asking for GW2 gameplay here, I am suggesting it is a decent system to look at to base crowfalls combat system.

 

I'm not sure about that. On my elementalist for example I had to maintain 100% field uptime (with a staff build) or I had to run my rotation as fast as possible (as S/F) to keep stacking fury and might. Blast finishers do support situational usage of abilities, but they're overshadowed by self-combo builds that spam their rotations for the buff stacks. It's hard to say that that's not intended use when those mechanics are built into the game, and that's the optimal way to utilize them. All of this is exacerbated by GW2 being a resource-less system, of course.

 

As for combat versus gameplay, I'm not sure I'm willing to make that distinction. In PvP, the combat system defines the gameplay. I have an old post that talks about how the combat system influences the "shape" of a PvP encounter. You notice that Tera and BDO both create distributed engagements that cover a wide area of isolated little "pocket" fights, while GW2 and Wildstar encourage a "battle of the blobs" type of gameplay. My hypothesis is that animation locks (or, as the video better demonstrates, obligated movement trajectories) are the key factor in this distinction.

Edited by recatek

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From what I have seen thus far in the videos I like the direction of the combat. I think that as the alpha, and betas go by they will look more polished as well. The combat is one factor of why I'm even backing the kickstarter for Crowfall.

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I'm not sure about that. On my elementalist for example I had to maintain 100% field uptime (with a staff build) or I had to run my rotation as fast as possible (as S/F) to keep stacking fury and might. Blast finishers do support situational usage of abilities, but they're overshadowed by self-combo builds that spam their rotations for the buff stacks. It's hard to say that that's not intended use when those mechanics are built into the game, and that's the optimal way to utilize them. All of this is exacerbated by GW2 being a resource-less system, of course.

 

As for combat versus gameplay, I'm not sure I'm willing to make that distinction. In PvP, the combat system defines the gameplay. I have an old post that talks about how the combat system influences the "shape" of a PvP encounter. You notice that Tera and BDO both create distributed engagements that cover a wide area of isolated little "pocket" fights, while GW2 and Wildstar encourage a "battle of the blobs" type of gameplay. My hypothesis is that animation locks (or, as the video better demonstrates, obligated movement trajectories) are the key factor in this distinction.

You have a point in what you are saying, BUT that is part of the GW2 boon system ( which in GW2 is part of the whole combat sytem ) but I should try to clarify myself a bit more, in the sense I am speaking in more simplistic combat system. Boon's would be a added affect to the system, if that makes sense :)

 

Collision tackles the blob problem even if you strictly use the GW2 model ( which I am not promoting, just using it as base more or less )

Edited by sarin

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I have not played Tera, and after watching that video I can see how it can bring additional depth to both combat and character customization.

 

You could have a melee dps class that puts all his weight into the swings which are very high damage but telegraphic. (Ala a a barbarian swinging his heavy axe wildly on a wide arc)

 

And a melee dps class who has low damage per hit, but with fast non-telegraphic movements. (A kunfu monk type).

 

You could have runes, that decrease or increase length of combat animations, thus increasing or decreasing telegraph and the possibility of the movement being predicted and avoided.

Edited by rajah

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Animation canceling is actually a huge part of Tera, but being forced to commit to your actions is a good thing. It means you have to make decisions and pay for your mistakes, rather than being able to waltz in and out of combat mid-strike.

 

You already paid for your action when you either spent the mana/stamina to use an ability or putting it on cooldown by using it. You are just adding a very annoying mechanic on top of it.

 

Both Tera and GW2 have abilities that chain off of each other for combo effects. That's fine. The issue is that, like I said above, in GW2 you never have a reason not to use an ability if it's available and off GCD. Tera, on the other hand, forces you to make decisions because the forced positioning has a downside that puts you at risk.

 

 

A Mesmer has every reason not to use Phase Retreat if his clones aren't dead and isn't trying to get away or has phantasms up. Just as a Ranger has no reason to use Point Blank Shot if someone isn't close to them. Those are just a couple of examples.

Edited by frozenshadow

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I have not played Tera, and after watching that video I can see how it can bring additional depth to both combat and character customization.

 

You could have a melee,dps class that puts all his weight into the swings which are very high damage but telegraphic. (Ala a a barbarian swinging his heavy axe wildly on a wide arc)

 

And a melee dps class who has low damage per hit, but with fast non-telegraphic movements. (A kunfu monk type).

 

You could have runes, that decrease or increase length of combat animations, thus increasing or decreasing telegraph and the possibility of the movement being predicted and avoided.

Tera has ways of putting items into your gear to speed up animations and such, but i dont really see that as a fix for the issue, its just a bandaid.


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Tera has ways of putting items into your gear to speed up animations and such, but i dont really see that as a fix for the issue, its just a bandaid.

And what is the issue ?

 

-edit Nevermind I guess I have to read the whole thread

Edited by rajah

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I don't even see an issue, all the examples are referencing how much more difficult animation locks make things without using any intelligent observation on how it makes anything easier, harder to dodge, easier to hit, if your being attacked by two foes you could wait til one or both attempt to attack and than attack during an opening or move around the one that wiffed and attack him while avoiding the other.

 

Lack of context doesn't prove anything.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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You are already paid for your action when you either spent the mana/stamina to use an ability or putting it on cooldown by using it. You are just adding a very annoying mechanic on top of it.

 

That's not as much of a tactical cost, though. The penalty of wasting stamina/mana as a result of a bad decision is far less than the penalty for placing yourself in a bad position as a result of a bad decision. If you're still able to freely move while attacking, even if you use some mana and whiff an ability, you can immediately disengage and pay only the mana cost. It doesn't really change your decision process for the next set of abilities you have to use. In contrast, if you're also committing to a movement trajectory when you attack, and you botch it, you could wind up in a dangerous spot. Your entire decision process changes as you're now forced to find a way to safely disengage and recover. I find that increased risk far more thrilling and rewarding.
 

When I played my Mesmer, I had every reason not to use Phase Retreat if my clones weren't dead and I wasn't trying to get away or I had phantasms up. Just like as a Ranger I had no reason to use Point Blank Shot if someone wasn't up in my face.

 

Sure, GW2 has its share of situational utility abilities, especially on the Mesmer. Elementalists don't want to use mist form without a good reason either. However, when it comes to the pure damage abilities (either targeted or AOE), GW2 gives you no reason not to use them if they're off cooldown. In fact, if you're trying to DPS, you're obligated to have those abilities on cooldown for as much as possible -- any time they're available to use and not being used, you're wasting damage for no reason.

 

Also notice that Phase Retreat is an ability with obligated movement, as in Tera. You just demonstrated how that kind of ability requires a decision process to evaluate the utility of using it, rather than it just being a no-brainer for damage application.

Edited by recatek

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I enjoyed Tera but the biggest issue I had was latency.  Playing on NA servers from outside NA gives action combat style MMO players a huge disadvantage.  I also played a ranger class and your auto attack speed was way faster than mine and other things like skill lock on are also affected.   I certainly hope I don't suffer the same issue with Crowfall.

You're going to suffer the same issue with Crowfall. That is, having increased latency playing on a server located on a different continent.  :huh:

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You're going to suffer the same issue with Crowfall. That is, having increased latency playing on a server located on a different continent.  :huh:

 

They could actually slow down the mobility even more and make the game simpler to accommodate lag... but I don't know whether that's worth pursuing...


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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You're going to suffer the same issue with Crowfall. That is, having increased latency playing on a server located on a different continent.  :huh:

 

Unfortunately internet traffic only moves so fast (electrons, the speed of light, conductivity, and all that). There will always be lag.

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I was going to download it as well, until I saw it was a 35GB DL. Sadly do not have unlimited bandwidth usage so I'm going to have to pass, but thank-you for checking it out for those the rest of us. :)

 

Because Crowfall seems to be heavily inspired by the combat in TERA I've decided to create a video displaying the issues I have with certain combat mechanics.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aM_SDT9tyJQ

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But animation lock (if I understand it correctly)is realistic, if you really commit to a haymaker you go with it.

 

Look at that punch

 

Clearly animation locked.

 

With real physics in game making combat that does not exploit all the possibilities of the engine would be underutilization of your resources.

Edited by rajah

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