Stealth

[ryanchuva 36]

Hi, 

been having a blast. Game came along way since I last played in alpha! Let us have a discussion about stealth. 
 

I felt that no matter what stealther I fought, they always stealth away. There should be a combat time in-between fighting and getting away.

I made an assassin to ensure that it wasn’t me just being unlucky. Sure enough, stealth class can stealth pretty much all the time with no issues. 

[PopeUrban 4,338]

14 minutes ago, ryanchuva said:

Hi, 

been having a blast. Game came along way since I last played in alpha! Let us have a discussion about stealth. 
 

I felt that no matter what stealther I fought, they always stealth away. There should be a combat time in-between fighting and getting away.

I made an assassin to ensure that it wasn’t me just being unlucky. Sure enough, stealth class can stealth pretty much all the time with no issues. 

The function of stealth is to not be seen, and sneak up on or away from people. The function of perception skills like those found on rangers, the elken race, or the heads up discipline is to allow the user to percieve stealthed players. When you have a perception ability active, your perception score determines the range at shich you can percieve stealthed enemies, counterbalanced by their stealth score. Think of these as two bubbles. Their "stealth bubble" starts as a pretty big radiu around them which gets smaller the higher their stealth stat is, while your "perception bubble" gets bigger the higher your perception stat is. When your "perception bubble" overlaps their "stealth bubble" you will perceive that stealthed enemy with the same purple ghost effect as you see on yourself or allies, but they will not display their nameplate unless you point directly at them. Once you hit the stealther, you'll knock them out of stealth.

In addition, the faerie fire debuff avaliable to several templatesis a long lating debuff that prevent stealth, but can be cleansed by certain abilities, rangers may use the long lasting flare arrow ability to "light up" an area that prevent and punishes stealthers, and any damage will knock stealthers out of stealth, including aoes or traps.

If you really really hate stealthers, the Ranger's Brigand specialization has not only stealth, but the ability to use the ranger specific Hunter discipline to activate perception while remaining stealthed, making it the only spec that can actively hunt down other stealthers while remaining stealthed itself.

Stealth in crowfall does not counter itself. Just as stealthers pay a cost in specific build choices for access to stealth, you must make specific build choices to counter that stealth. If you want to counter stealth, you must build a character with the ability to do so and effectively play its abilities and counterplay your stealthy opponent.

Edited July 11, 2021 by PopeUrban

[ryanchuva 36]

2 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

The function of stealth is to not be seen, and sneak up on or away from people. The function of perception skills like those found on rangers, the elken race, or the heads up discipline is to allow the user to percieve stealthed players. When you have a perception ability active, your perception score determines the range at shich you can percieve stealthed enemies, counterbalanced by their stealth score. Think of these as two bubbles. Their "stealth bubble" starts as a pretty big radiu around them which gets smaller the higher their stealth stat is, while your "perception bubble" gets bigger the higher your perception stat is. When your "perception bubble" overlaps their "stealth bubble" you will perceive that stealthed enemy with the same purple ghost effect as you see on yourself or allies, but they will not display their nameplate unless you point directly at them. Once you hit the stealther, you'll knock them out of stealth.

In addition, the faerie fire debuff avaliable to several templatesis a long lating debuff that prevent stealth, but can be cleansed by certain abilities, rangers may use the long lasting flare arrow ability to "light up" an area that prevent and punishes stealthers, and any damage will knock stealthers out of stealth, including aoes or traps.

If you really really hate stealthers, the Ranger's Brigand specialization has not only stealth, but the ability to use the ranger specific Hunter discipline to activate perception while remaining stealthed, making it the only spec that can actively hunt down other stealthers while remaining stealthed itself.

Stealth in crowfall does not counter itself. Just as stealthers pay a cost in specific build choices for access to stealth, you must make specific build choices to counter that stealth. If you want to counter stealth, you must build a character with the ability to do so and effectively play its abilities and counterplay your stealthy opponent.

Very nice reply! So it works like dark age of Camelot stealth.

I think there should be a combat timer. When I played my stealther I was instantly able to stealth without any issues.

[PopeUrban 4,338]

32 minutes ago, ryanchuva said:

Very nice reply! So it works like dark age of Camelot stealth.

I think there should be a combat timer. When I played my stealther I was instantly able to stealth without any issues.

There is a combat timer, and you can not enter the stealth tray normally while in combat. However the main stealth classes, assassin and duelist have ultimate abilities that can be used to do so. On the one hand this makes disengaging far easier for them. On the other hand this means they don't have an ult to actually use to help them win fights. Generally speaking you should expect stealthers to use their ult and bail when in trouble as that's part of their class design, your job as antistealth is to unstealth them afterward so they can be killed while their ult is spent.

[Averion 69]

I think that stealth in the current model is pretty balanced, and as the others have already pointed out there are some really nice counters to that. A well-organised, small band of people could very easily work as an anti-diversion force of sorts.

[Bartlebe.Blackstaff 19]

Stealthing in this game is poorly done imo.

Being able to use stealth to jump on someone isn't the problem. That is a core part of their classes and must exist in that way although I do think unlimited stealth is a problem. The issue is that its too easy to get back into stealth once you've popped it. Specifically on the assassin, it is a "get out of jail free" card that works almost every time. Not only is it on a short cool down but its also has a small teleport.

The cool down on the "get out of jail free" card needs to be increased. Being able to instantly vanish and teleport away is extremely powerful in a pvp risk environment. Stealthing is a very powerful advantage over all of your opponents and being able to choose when you fight is tremendous. Giving stealther's escape vanish ability two charges to and a short cool down is just too much. There is a reason why assassin are crawling around everywhere in the dregs and in every group.

 

Edited July 11, 2021 by Bartlebe.Blackstaff

[nomadmerc 111]

stealth is too powerful as is but that is mainly because the ults clear dots. Would be better if the ults cleared dots but only let you be in stealth for a limited time and then the main stealth had a cooldown so you would be visible again shortly. Shadowbane did this better. Stealth there took up to five seconds without talents for sneak and with talents hide was near instant but hide only let you stay stationary. 

[Spineless 14]

Stealth mechanics are working pretty good atm. IMO all of the stealth class  builds are pretty meh. None of them are going to be in the top 10 group vs group picks for sure. Other then scouting they just dont bring much to the table. 

[Nogrim 2]

stealth is powerful early on, but really wanes as people wake up and realize how to reveal people. if you want to gank people there is no better choice obviously, so early on when everyone is out trying to farm these classes will excel, as time goes on and people start taking faerie fire in a spare minor slot those stealthers will lose a lot of their oompf. 

trying to nerf those things now, will only result in them being unplayable later on in a server, let at least one set of dregs run through before we start talking about nerfing this, or nerfing that.

there are characters that are just going to be better choices when it comes to the early parts of a campaign, that will fizzle out later on in GvG

[Mourne 1,574]

Stealth revamp and adding Tracking is on the mid-range road map goals I think.

I hope see-invisible abilities are on a couple major disciplines only.  If not, having detecting stealth on a minor should be less effective, like less range.

Also, once stealth is revamped, that'd be cool if they had a major discipline for a caster-type discipline that had an invisibility ability.  And this would be a good time to put in a Thieving discipline that let players steal inventory items from others.

Edited July 16, 2021 by Mourne

[Xnodas 6]

there are so many rangers and the like out right now that stealth is hardly easy to pop in and out of. Rangers can see a base assassin while in stealth from like 30+m away. assassin's are literally one of the lowest ranked classes in the game right now no matter the promotion you go. nerfing stealth will take the class out of the game. no one will play it.

[Rhyse 58]

When Warden is finally nerfed it will be better, since 4/5 people won't be rangers anymore.

Personally I'm waiting for the day when every group wants to hire a anti-stealth spec Archer just to watch their butts (Thief Disc pls, I need things to shoot at!)

[Randrik 9]

As someone who plays an assassin and a ranger its really easy to lock down any stealthers, as people have mentioned their are enough mechanics already in the game and its balanced really well.

[Retchet 401]

You shouldn't be able to log out while in stealth.

[Soulreaver 2,480]

On 7/19/2021 at 4:48 AM, Rhyse said:

When Warden is finally nerfed it will be better, since 4/5 people won't be rangers anymore.

Personally I'm waiting for the day when every group wants to hire a anti-stealth spec Archer just to watch their butts (Thief Disc pls, I need things to shoot at!)

Someone actually finally got it. 

[Peppercats 12]

On 7/11/2021 at 1:19 PM, Bartlebe.Blackstaff said:

Stealthing in this game is poorly done imo.

Being able to use stealth to jump on someone isn't the problem. That is a core part of their classes and must exist in that way although I do think unlimited stealth is a problem. The issue is that its too easy to get back into stealth once you've popped it. Specifically on the assassin, it is a "get out of jail free" card that works almost every time. Not only is it on a short cool down but its also has a small teleport.

The cool down on the "get out of jail free" card needs to be increased. Being able to instantly vanish and teleport away is extremely powerful in a pvp risk environment. Stealthing is a very powerful advantage over all of your opponents and being able to choose when you fight is tremendous. Giving stealther's escape vanish ability two charges to and a short cool down is just too much. There is a reason why assassin are crawling around everywhere in the dregs and in every group.

 

While I agree stealth is a bit overturned, the assassin ult's cooldown shouldn't be changed, but it definitely should be dropped to one charge. I think they should reward people who actually use the ult for combat over running away... maybe change it depending on the subclass of assassin, so if you're committing to like cutthroat for example, once you're in the fight you need to commit to the fight.

Non assassin stealth ults should be, removed in confessors case (makes no sense for them to have it), and in the other cases tuned down so they aren't just playing better assassin.

[calqulon 60]

On 7/26/2021 at 2:12 AM, Peppercats said:

While I agree stealth is a bit overturned, the assassin ult's cooldown shouldn't be changed, but it definitely should be dropped to one charge. I think they should reward people who actually use the ult for combat over running away... maybe change it depending on the subclass of assassin, so if you're committing to like cutthroat for example, once you're in the fight you need to commit to the fight.

 

The problem is the sin needs those ults when fighting almost anything for restealth(in my case to heal a bit, stun, and redrop piercing vuln).  Meanwhile you have champs/myrm/wardens/templars that heal naturally for amazing amounts while doing higher sustained(and in some cases burst) than sins can do.  If the devs want to change sins into more of a brawler, especially cutthroat, they should have also buffed the class to survive more than a few hits out of stealth.

 

Maybe my perception is tainted by not having top shelf gear, but I'm willing to bet by the amount of sins I've fought before they run away that most don't have that gear.

[Aenarias 1]

Stealth definitely needs to be looked at. Complete invisibility is a lazy and antiquated mechanic that has been rehashed for far too long, but that's a whole different conversation.

Assassins having the ability to sit completely invisible to pick and choose your fights, while also having a "get out of jail free card" on a hilariously short cooldown with TWO charges is a massive oversight. You should be able to do one or the other - not both, and definitely not infinitely. If assassins need to be stronger in a standup fight to accommodate this, so be it. The current iteration creates a completely one-sided encounter where your only course of action is to try to escape if you win the initial skirmish unless you play one of the few classes/combinations that gives you a chance to see the stealthed player.

The reason you're seeing so many Rangers and Wardens? Well, Wardens are very strong, don't get me wrong, but it's also the game's only recourse against the huge amounts of stealth. Crowfall has 11 base classes, 1 of them has any chance of seeing a stealthed player. You shouldn't need a special ability to see someone who is inches away from you, just eyes - sorry, not eyes, a single eye. Or an ear. Or a nose.

I must say, I am pleasantly surprised by Crowfall. Having just joined at launch without following the game very closely I am excited for the game to succeed. However, the current stealth mechanics are a poor and toxic system that promotes boring gameplay and will drive players away while devolving into stealth wars outside of keep/fort battles.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Aenarias

[Peppercats 12]

4 minutes ago, Aenarias said:

Stealth definitely needs to be looked at. Complete invisibility is a lazy and antiquated mechanic that has been rehashed for far too long, but that's a whole different conversation.

Assassins having the ability to sit completely invisible to pick and choose your fights, while also having a "get out of jail free card" on a hilariously short cooldown with TWO charges is a massive oversight. You should be able to do one or the other - not both, and definitely not infinitely. If assassins need to be stronger in a standup fight to accommodate this, so be it. 

The reason you're seeing so many Rangers and Wardens? Well, Wardens are very strong, don't get me wrong, but it's also the game's only recourse against the huge amounts of stealth. Crowfall has 11 base classes, 1 of them has any chance of seeing a stealthed player. You shouldn't need a special ability to see someone who is inches away from you, just eyes - sorry, not eyes, a single eye. Or an ear. Or a nose.

I must say, I am pleasantly surprised by Crowfall. Having just joined at launch without following the game very closely I am excited for the game to succeed. However, the current stealth mechanics are a poor and toxic system that promotes boring gameplay and will drive players away while devolving into stealth wars outside of keep/fort battles.

Lots of people run music domain, so really anyone as an Elken, ranger, or has access to music can see stealth, not even mentioning that if you have an aoe you can knock them out of the ult if you knew where they were facing when they ulted.

[stidesx 35]

I give up a lot in order to have stealth. Of course folks see it as an advantage for me, but it definitely comes at a tradeoff. No need to nerf stealth, it's fine as is. I get exposed and killed plenty as it is lol.