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Please Take The Eternal Kingdoms Back To The Drawing Board

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Are the Eternal Kingdoms (EKs) individual trophy rooms? Are they social hangouts? Are they economic centers? Are they part of the "end game" mechanic? Is ArtCraft going to monetize them?

 

It is a bit hard to pin the EKs down at this point... but based on what we have heard so far, I think there are some serious, fundamental flaws with how the EKs are shaping up right now. And it is mostly because it seems like EKs are going to get tied into the end game in various ways.

 

First - the EKs are personal (possibly at the account or character level). This is fine, but then the EKs become a flimsy foundation for the CF endgame.  Why would I want to build my legacy in someone else's EK? What if they quit tomorrow? What if they kick me out tomorrow because they just can? These seem like things that the owner of each EK should be allowed to do, which makes sense because it is their own personal kingdom after all... But why would I take the spoils of a 6 month campaign and invest it in a fortress on someone else's EK? 

 

Second - the devs has said that they will be looking for ways to monetize the EKs. I think this is a great idea... so long as the EKs are glorified trophy rooms. Nothing against trophy rooms and social spaces. I think they are a great addition to the game... But if EKs have anything to do with the End Game, forget it.  The game becomes pay to win, or at least gets a hefty element of it.

 

----

 

So, I actually really like the idea of the EKs, as personal and social hubs. And I think they would be a great way for the devs to make money beyond Kickstarter and the purchase price.  But they don't seem like a suitable place to invest the raw materials and gold you will get by competing in the campaigns.  So either the EKs have to be totally rethought, or we need new types of worlds to house the endgame.

Edited by virt

The Shipwrecked Pirates

yarrr....

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First - the EKs are personal (possibly at the account or character level). This is fine, but then the EKs become a flimsy foundation for the CF endgame.  Why would I want to build my legacy in someone else's EK? What if they quit tomorrow? What if they kick me out tomorrow because they just can? These seem like things that the owner of each EK should be allowed to do, which makes sense because it is their own personal kingdom after all... But why would I take the spoils of a 6 month campaign and invest it in a fortress on someone else's EK? 

 

There's a simple fix to this. They need to pair Guilds and Fealty tree.

 

Next, they alter how you join the guild - by swearing allegiance to ANY member of it. So basically it's just a huge chain of Allegiance, all the way up to one person who has sworn fealty to no one. If this sounds familiar, Asheron's Call 1 & 2 had a similar system.

 

After you swear Fealty to someone, your land gets added onto their Kingdom. You still own your land, but the Monarch can still tweak the rules of the overall Kingdom (as a Monarch should). When you win rewards from a campaign, you get to keep them and use them to benefit your land and your Vassal's, but a portion of them go to the person you pledged allegiance to within the Fealty tree (just like resources they receive are taxed by those above them). And when people pledge Allegiance to you, their land gets added to your domain within the Kingdom.

 

This allows you to work for your own person gains (for you and your own Vassals), while still contributing to the Kingdom as a whole.

 

If you get kicked out - you get to take your land - and all your Vassal's land with you. Essentially, you become the Monarch of your own Kingdom. But maybe you don't get kicked out. Maybe you outgrow your Monarch (gain more Vassals under you then they have without you) and decide to become your own King. This is where politics can get REALLY interesting.

 

I know it's not your typical guild system - but it takes on that Game of Thrones flavor, where there are main Noble Houses (Monarchs) and Vassal Houses (those underneath). It also makes your social choices actually matter.

Edited by Teekey

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Second - the devs has said that they will be looking for ways to monetize the EKs. I think this is a great idea... so long as the EKs are glorified trophy rooms. Nothing against trophy rooms and social spaces.

 

Call me silly, but I don't see that being a big enough draw for monetization.

 

My group already has a fancy website full of team kill videos and forum threads brimming with social content. And our TS3 server is perpetually busy with teams in a dozen games... Why exactly do I need to pay for this EK again?

 

Like a bunch of people have been saying (yourself included), something is definitely off with what we know about EKs...

 

There is supposed to be more information coming soon though, so I'm just biding my time and enjoying hanging with all of the Crows. ;)


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There's a simple fix to this. They need to pair Guilds and Fealty tree.

 

Next, they alter how you join the guild - by swearing allegiance to ANY member of it. So basically it's just a huge chain of Allegiance, all the way up to one person who has sworn fealty to no one. If this sounds familiar, Asheron's Call 1 & 2 had a similar system.

 

After you swear Fealty to someone, your land gets added onto their Kingdom. You still own your land, but the Monarch can still tweak the rules of the overall Kingdom (as a Monarch should). When you win rewards from a campaign, you get to keep them and use them to benefit your land and your Vassal's, but a portion of them go to the person you pledged allegiance to within the Fealty tree (just like resources they receive are taxed by those above them). And when people pledge Allegiance to you, their land gets added to your domain within the Kingdom.

 

This allows you to work for your own person gains (for you and your own Vassals), while still contributing to the Kingdom as a whole.

 

If you get kicked out - you get to take your land - and all your Vassal's land with you. Essentially, you become the Monarch of your own Kingdom. But maybe you don't get kicked out. Maybe you outgrow your Monarch (gain more Vassals under you then they have without you) and decide to become your own King. This is where politics can get REALLY interesting.

 

I know it's not your typical guild system - but it takes on that Game of Thrones flavor, where there are main Noble Houses (Monarchs) and Vassal Houses (those underneath). It also makes your social choices actually matter.

 

I like this, because it mirrors our internal organization already.

 

I would add the ability to grant title though, and have those titles confer some sort of tangible benefit. We move members through ranks based on performance and promotion - I'd like to do that with EKs as well if at all possible. :)


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I think there SHOULD* be a separate EK assigned to guilds, this will eliminate the concerns regarding the KickStarter rewards since those only benefit your "personal" EK.. of course guilds can still technically use personal EK's as their own so there really isn't a way to avoid people just bypassing the guild EK all together.. unless of course your make it so ONLY guild EK's can go to war against other Guild EKs. then people will have a reason to fortify and build their Guild's EK.

 

using Shadowbane as an example: People would farm "for the guild" to build up the buildings and farm materials needed to equip the "important" characters/members in the guild. It's just the way it's going to be. Some players are better than others and will be geared out by their guilds because they are MVP's. Yeah people got kicked from the guilds they helped farm for but at least their personal inventories and equipment went with them which is what really matters.

 

The benefit of having dozens if not hundreds of people farming to make your guild city able to produce rare items faster and easier out weighed the risk of getting kicked. That's why your reputation matters in a game like this, if you suck but people like you, you'll be "safe" and eventually geared out. If you're a "pro" but a hooligan and no one likes you then people won't let you in their guilds.

 

I think what needs to be clarified is how exactly resources and materials are distributed to those that win campaigns. In my opinion smaller guilds/players that lose should be able to keep the equipment and weapons they create during a campaign (which will give them better odds in the next campaign) and only be able to keep the percentage of resources in their personal banks/inventories as dictated by the ring they are on. This will allow individuals to barter for items in-game during a campaign and still be able to walk out of a campaign with at least something (the equipment on their back and/or 10/10 eternal personal storage that stays with you that isn't lost) even if they lose.

 

 

 

 

First - the EKs are personal (possibly at the account or character level). This is fine, but then the EKs become a flimsy foundation for the CF endgame.  Why would I want to build my legacy in someone else's EK? What if they quit tomorrow? What if they kick me out tomorrow because they just can? These seem like things that the owner of each EK should be allowed to do, which makes sense because it is their own personal kingdom after all... But why would I take the spoils of a 6 month campaign and invest it in a fortress on someone else's EK?

 

Simple answer: Because it would take you 6 months to do something solo that your guild can do together in 6 days.

 

 

Some Pay2Win concerns here: http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/3195-eternal-kingdoms-here-is-what-end-game-will-look-like-do-the-kickstarter-rewards-make-crowfall-pay2win/

Edited by thenebrosity

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lol ok.. I wonder if I'll still be able to steal directly from people's inventories.. hrmmm

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I like this, because it mirrors our internal organization already.

 

I would add the ability to grant title though, and have those titles confer some sort of tangible benefit. We move members through ranks based on performance and promotion - I'd like to do that with EKs as well if at all possible. :)

 

Simple. Those immediately underneath the King/Queen are Dukes/Duchesses, those immediately under them are Barons/Baroness, those immediately under Barons are Count/Countess.

 

Then, you create positional titles underneath each of those leadership positions, so they can choose their own Knights, Master of Arms, Master of Coin, Master of Builders, etc.

Edited by Teekey

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Teekay - I think that is a good idea, but it doesn't leave the EKs open to monetization.  Which I'm fine with if the Devs are flush with cash to reinvest in the game... but that's a big if.  I would rather that they have ways to raise money that don't affect the end game.

 

Also, it's a simple idea, but I do not think the implementation of the idea is going to be simple at all.  How do the pieces of land fit together? what if you have a fort on your land? does it magically appear in the next kingdom you swear fealty to?  Are there coding issues with making all this work correctly (no bugs... no sb.exe). 

 

 

Raeshlavik - They've been pretty open about the idea of monetizing the EKs somehow... frankly I want them to do it. Having some meaningless (to the end game) items for sale that can be added to your EK, could be a steady source of revenue, which can be used to pay for things like the development cost of mounts.


The Shipwrecked Pirates

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Aren't you assuming alot here?  We have very little information on the game so far, not near enough to draw large conclusions.

He's not wrong, though. I don't really have a good sense of what an EK is.

Is it my player house analogue, where I go to sit around and look at pretty pictures between campaigns? Is it my Guild Castle, which we fly banners off, make armies in, shake sabers at other guilds and maybe steal their stuff? Is it an economic and crafting hub, where I go to spend my resources at the blacksmith and get pimpin' armor? Is it all of this?

 

What mechanical function does this fill? Say I don't really care about a trophy room or a house, what good is it to me? Why do I care?

Is the Eternal Kingdom the greater metagame, the empires we carve out of other peoples empire? So we campaign for resources, send those to the EK and then throw our EKs at each other? For what reward?

 

What organizational level do EKs exist at? Personal? Guild? Multiguild? At what point do I stop having a house and start having a fortress or a kingdom? If that's purely mechanical or economic progression, what's the point of all those kingdoms past ~bling~?

 

These are all questions that need answering, because I don't really get what the concept for this is.

Edited by Psyentific

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Teekay - I think that is a good idea, but it doesn't leave the EKs open to monetization.  Which I'm fine with if the Devs are flush with cash to reinvest in the game... but that's a big if.  I would rather that they have ways to raise money that don't affect the end game.

 

 

Sure it does. Just allow people to buy building designs (which still require collecting resource to build). Then let people buy decorations (and also earn some within the game.

Edited by Teekey

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Idk that EK has to be brought back to the drawing board, we know very little about anything, we are still pre-alpha, we are just getting as the devs said, a bit of the vision. We still dont have the full picture. I am a big fan of EK i think it will be part of Crowfalls endgame and very much look forward to it. Im also more then okay with monetizing EK as long as it goes not give a actual advantage in the dying worlds. If you guys have ideas share them here, the developers read the forums daily and respond to things they feel is ready to be known, but dont go so harsh as to say go back to the drawing board or similar things ive heard throughout my time in the forums.

 

Lets continue to discuss and be open to new ideas and have patience as more and more of Crowfalls vision is revealed to us. Not everything Crowfall is doing is set in stone, alot is placeholder and open for internal discussion, and we can help influence those things through detailed discussion.


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How about we actually wait for all of the information to be released before calling for massive reforms in the Crowfall world :|

 

We already know they're being designed to essentially be care bear social havens. So yeah, I think now is the perfect time to try and call for change.

 

Let's make them actually meaningful.


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Its hard to say things without locking yourself in, especially with so many unknowns. So I'm cool if they say "well this is our rough idea and its not set in stone but here is what we HOPE to do. At least it gives us a sense od direction.


I role play a wordsmith.

 

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We already know they're being designed to essentially be care bear social havens. So yeah, I think now is the perfect time to try and call for change.

 

Let's make them actually meaningful.

Without some kind of conflict, the EK is nothing more than a glorified lobby. Even if it's some kind of slow-burn territory control guild vs guild thing, that's still something. People create their castles, their megaforts, and we can kick them right back down again.

 

Maybe that's where PvE can come in; You've got your Campaign, which funnels resources to your EK, which uses those resources to create, train and equip an Army (NPCs led by players?), which goes out to raid or siege another EK, which creates PvE (and sometimes PvP!) for the people in that EK at various scales. NPC factions (Gods? OBC?) have similar EKs creating similar armies which do the same.

Edited by Psyentific

Hardcore gamer & tabletop enthusiast. Enjoys roleplaying, pretending to be stupid, and one-sided fun.

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Raeshlavik - They've been pretty open about the idea of monetizing the EKs somehow... frankly I want them to do it. Having some meaningless (to the end game) items for sale that can be added to your EK, could be a steady source of revenue, which can be used to pay for things like the development cost of mounts.

 

Yes, I know. And I'm all for it.

 

But I also like this game, and want them to make money... My observation is that people will not pay extra for things that do not have very tangible perks to their experience.

 

Why would a guild pay for more virtual turf, either in $ or play-time, if there is no reward to doing so other than "huzzah! another empty building!"? They wont - at least not in great enough numbers to offset datacenter costs.

 

Now if my $ is going to finance a kingdom we built with the same exact materials as everyone else, on parcels I'm paying for, and we need to keep people from kicking that over? Now we're talking. If I cannot "lose" those parcels I am paying for, but the buildings can be torched - great! I will keep paying, my guild will keep playing, and we will rebuild - then go break off our collective foot in someone's backside for crossing us. ;)

Edited by Raeshlavik

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