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maximporsche
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The elder scroll has no place here. Hopefully the ranger shares some of the scout mechanics from SB. 

Its not about elder scrolls, greatest stealth game ever made also has exact same mechanic.

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Its not about elder scrolls, greatest stealth game ever made also has exact same mechanic.

 

The difference between Thief and an MMO is typically the prominent name tag above ones head rendering that mechanic null and void. Invis/camo/predator camo will be a requirement I think for stealth.

 

 

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The difference between Thief and an MMO is typically the prominent name tag above ones head rendering that mechanic null and void. Invis/camo/predator camo will be a requirement I think for stealth.

I do not understand anything from your answer, can you be more clear please?

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I do not understand anything from your answer, can you be more clear please?

 

In an MMO, unlike other games such as "Thief",  you typically have your character name prominently above your character making stealth hard to implement.

 

They are saying you would need some sort of invisibility or camouflage mechanic to allow for stealth.

(They also reference the method of invisibility from the Predator movies, which was on TV last night and is still awesome no matter how many times I watch it)

Edited by ledeir
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What Ledeir said. 

 

Realistically in an MMO having the proper landscape to hide using the Thief mechanic - the greatest stealth game ever - would be next to impossible to implement. As you are playing against other players here and not NPCs that can be programmed to play dumb. In order to use a true stealth mechanic it would only be possible by way using camouflage like our armies do in the real world.

 

Camouflage works to blend a solid form or shape into an environment, rendering the eye unable to properly identify it, thus camouflaging it.

 

A hyper realistic landscape or armor/clothing designed to blend perfectly into the environment (along with the ability to go prone, cover yourself with terrain, etc.) would be required to make this work. This would be very costly as opposed to using stealth based skills like Invis/hide/group camouflage.

 

Even still, considering this is a digital world and everything is much more noticeable than in the real world due to a lack of infinite detail, this would pretty much render stealth a no go.

 

 

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In an MMO, unlike other games such as "Thief",  you typically have your character name prominently above your character making stealth hard to implement.

 

They are saying you would need some sort of invisibility or camouflage mechanic to allow for stealth.

(They also reference the method of invisibility from the Predator movies, which was on TV last night and is still awesome no matter how many times I watch it)

 

Maybe stealth can remove the name over someones head or it doesn't have to be there in the first place?

 

Invisible stealth, the way it works in most MMOs, would be way too strong in the game. Being able to move resources with almost no risk would make it way to unbalanced. Not to mention how easy it would make jumping players and taking their stuff. 

Edited by Tyrogon
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Maybe stealth can remove the name over someones head or it doesn't have to be there in the first place?

 

 

I personally like the idea of not having names displayed unless you scroll over them. A stealth skill could turn that off so that you actually need to use your eyes.

 

I look forward to seeing what they do, since they have listed two stealthy sounding archetypes! (stalker and assassin)

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What Ledeir said. 

 

Realistically in an MMO having the proper landscape to hide using the Thief mechanic - the greatest stealth game ever - would be next to impossible to implement. As you are playing against other players here and not NPCs that can be programmed to play dumb. In order to use a true stealth mechanic it would only be possible by way using camouflage like our armies do in the real world.

 

Camouflage works to blend a solid form or shape into an environment, rendering the eye unable to properly identify it, thus camouflaging it.

 

A hyper realistic landscape or armor/clothing designed to blend perfectly into the environment (along with the ability to go prone, cover yourself with terrain, etc.) would be required to make this work. This would be very costly as opposed to using stealth based skills like Invis/hide/group camouflage.

 

Even still, considering this is a digital world and everything is much more noticeable than in the real world due to a lack of infinite detail, this would pretty much render stealth a no go.

Ah yes, for name idea, they can make it so your name becomes invisible when you go into stealth,

 

For other parts, they can make it so you become very dark when you are inside shadows, if made properly this will make you quite invisable in shadows. I remember using some dark corners in CS 1.6 when i was kid :P

 

I dont think being able to move around invisable in day time is a good mechanic, in the worst case scenerio they can implement dynamic invisibility, which makes you invisable only when you are inside shadows. However i prefer black/little transperent over this.

 

With black-ness fading after 2 seconds when you leave a shadow (not instantly) and if you move fast in stealth it can be made to work.

Edited by Navhkrin
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Maybe stealth can remove the name over someones head or it doesn't have to be there in the first place?

 

Invisible stealth, the way it works in most MMOs, would be way too strong in the game. Being able to move resources with almost no risk would make it way to unbalanced. Not to mention how easy it would make jumping players and taking their stuff. 

 

No, it isn't.

 

In shadowbane stealth had a dedicated counter-mechanic called tracking. Scouts were masters at this, and their track had a longer range and lower update time, but most characters had the option of taking the bounty hunter disc which added tracking with lower range.

 

The way this worked was that you hit track, and a list showed up of all players in range, their class, etc. click a player, you get an arrow to where they are. Scouts and BH had reveal abilities, that while active allowed you to see stealthers within a certain range, and thus target and attack them to reveal them for everyone else.

 

This dedicated counterplay balanced stealth in the same way that having healers balanced people doing damage to each other, or how roots balanced melee, or any number of other well designed mechanics.

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On 5/11/2015 at 1:48 PM, CAWCAWCAW said:

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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While I agree the mechanic in general is definitely more appealing - been there myself with 1.6. I have to agree with the Pope here. It's just more efficient and provides more utility and purpose overall. Additionally, it allows a true professional feel to the classes associated. I am not a huge proponent of stealth classes, in fact, the only game I ever truly enjoyed having the premise of stealth was Shadowbane. I focused my character primarily to be a ranged scout/tracking/utility class to cover long distances behind enemy lines. It was quite an amazing experience. It's also quite exhilarating when you know you are being tracked and followed by war parties, while moving under cover and at a slower rate.

 

I know that the mechanic I describe sounds, less than spectacular, but if the stealth turns out to be anything like Shadowbane's system I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

 

 

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No, it isn't.

 

In shadowbane stealth had a dedicated counter-mechanic called tracking. Scouts were masters at this, and their track had a longer range and lower update time, but most characters had the option of taking the bounty hunter disc which added tracking with lower range.

 

The way this worked was that you hit track, and a list showed up of all players in range, their class, etc. click a player, you get an arrow to where they are. Scouts and BH had reveal abilities, that while active allowed you to see stealthers within a certain range, and thus target and attack them to reveal them for everyone else.

 

This dedicated counterplay balanced stealth in the same way that having healers balanced people doing damage to each other, or how roots balanced melee, or any number of other well designed mechanics.

 

When a skills only counter is to pick up a class/discipline then there is a problem. Stealth classes would have to suffer in other areas for them to be balanced. 

 

I hate to bring it up but people seem to think that this isn't a option. In darkfall, we didn't have any stealth abilities. We had no names over our heads and crouching would remove the sound of our foot steps. Stealth was still a thing and getting close to players before they noticed you was very possible. It was harder then pressing a button and walking straight at them but i found it more rewarding that way. It required you to actually be stealthy. If you were on a receiving end, you knew it was because you messed up, wasn't because of some op skill. Anyone can counter it. Counterplay didn't require you to play a certain class or get a discipline. Skills that track players still can play a major role in systems without invisibility. 

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When a skills only counter is to pick up a class/discipline then there is a problem. Stealth classes would have to suffer in other areas for them to be balanced. 

 

I hate to bring it up but people seem to think that this isn't a option. In darkfall, we didn't have any stealth abilities. We had no names over our heads and crouching would remove the sound of our foot steps. Stealth was still a thing and getting close to players before they noticed you was very possible. It was harder then pressing a button and walking straight at them but i found it more rewarding that way. It required you to actually be stealthy. If you were on a receiving end, you knew it was because you messed up, wasn't because of some op skill. Anyone can counter it. Counterplay didn't require you to play a certain class or get a discipline. Skills that track players still can play a major role in systems without invisibility. 

 

The difference is that darkfall was, on purpose, a game without classes or roles so it would have made little sense to develop stealth specializations, as in PvP everyone would have been virtually required to pick it up. It was also a game with no skill caps and filled with nothing but slightly different flavors of battlemage.

 

Every skill or class or build has a natural counter. That's why classes and build limitations exist, to encourage specialization and enforce the necessity of player interdependance. There are hard counters (scouts vs. stealth) and soft counters (PBAoEs) to such a system, and furthermore it actually works in a third person design.

 

"Natural Stealth" just plain doesn't work in third person systems with so much camera control. You can't reliably know where your opponent's vantage point is by looking at him, and as such you can't know where to move to remain behind cover. It makes stealth, as a specialization, effectively useless which means designing roles around it is impossible.

Edited by PopeUrban

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On 5/11/2015 at 1:48 PM, CAWCAWCAW said:

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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Well if they end up giving one of the Ranger promotion classes traps, then I can see the friendly fire issues already.  It also seems that the ranger could be a great archtype to be the spear master.  Not sure the game has a spear user yet, does it?

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The difference is that darkfall was, on purpose, a game without classes or roles so it would have made little sense to develop stealth specializations, as in PvP everyone would have been virtually required to pick it up. It was also a game with no skill caps and filled with nothing but slightly different flavors of battlemage.

 

Every skill or class or build has a natural counter. That's why classes and build limitations exist, to encourage specialization and enforce the necessity of player interdependance. There are hard counters (scouts vs. stealth) and soft counters (PBAoEs) to such a system, and furthermore it actually works in a third person design.

 

"Natural Stealth" just plain doesn't work in third person systems with so much camera control. You can't reliably know where your opponent's vantage point is by looking at him, and as such you can't know where to move to remain behind cover. It makes stealth, as a specialization, effectively useless which means designing roles around it is impossible.

 

The point was stealth was still a thing in Darkfall and it had a third person camera (though it wasn't free moving).

 

I don't agree that classes need hard counters but the issue of stealth is that it isn't just a combat thing. In your typical themepark MMO, it's fine. For the most part, it makes it easy to initiate a fight. open world fights don't matter. In battlegrounds, you will know if they are in the area.

 

In this game, It would allow you to move resources without being seen. It's not just a combat advantage. Ganking someone also means they lose their inventory and at the very least, 1/5 of their gears dura. It has a lot more of an impact.

 

Yes, it's good to have dependence between classes but you shouldn't require a class to counter one skill.

Edited by Tyrogon
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The point was stealth was still a thing in Darkfall and it had a third person camera (though it wasn't free moving).

 

I don't agree that classes need hard counters but the issue of stealth is that it isn't just a combat thing. In your typical themepark MMO, it's fine. For the most part, it makes it easy to initiate a fight. open world fights don't matter. In battlegrounds, you will know if they are in the area.

 

In this game, It would allow you to move resources without being seen. It's not just a combat advantage. Ganking someone also means they lose their inventory and at the very least, 1/5 of their gears dura. It has a lot more of an impact.

 

Yes, it's good to have dependence between classes but you shouldn't require a class to counter one skill.

 

By that logic, parties shouldn't be required to bring sapping specialists to sap, or ranged to counter mages, or mages to counter melee. We should all be equallt capable and roughly equivalent in most things. That's exactly what sucked about the darkfall system's lack of caps. There were no roles. Just numbers, positional strategy, and twitch skill. That's a boring system. It does nothing to encourage player interaction. It doesn't lead to interesting PvP encounters. Every fight plays out exactly the same, and individual party members never get a time to shine for doing the thing they are uniquely good at.

 

You're missing the point. You don't need a specific class. One class happens to be BETTER at it than the option avaliable to almost everyone at the cost of a disc slot.

 

This is how shadowbane stealth and scouting worked, it was a ffa environment where PvP mattered and was the point of the game, and it allowed you to move valuable items more safely as well. It was also the first strategy-centric MMO developed by the creative director of this game. It worked. Really well.

 

We ran a LOT of mines with no scout, we just brought whoever happenned to have bounty hunter tracking. We needed a skillset that was a build choice for many classes to counter a mechanic that was a build choice for many classes.

 

In addition, the ability to move resources without being seen is a moot point. Tracking is a skill that extends well beyond visibility range specifically to provide advanced warning of enemies in the area. That's literally the point of tracking, and its most common use. It's what gives scouts the ability to be scouts, the same way being able to actually reliably stealth and initiate combat from stealth provided your stealth is not countered is what allows assassins to BE assassins.

 

Let's say the ranger has some traps specs, right? What is a better implementation, a trap that is visible if you happen to look in its direction, or a trap that is invisible unless a character specialized in detecting traps uses a skill to do so?

 

This is why there WERE no rogues in darkfall. It's why everyone was a battlemage. Rogues are, by default, utility characters. Their common design purpose isn't to bring optimized ranged pain, or wade in to battles. They exist in adventuring parties in virtually every roleplaying system because of the specific utility skillsets they bring that the other archetypes do not. They're not as good in a stand up fight as a fighter. They're not in command of the vast destructive forces commanded by mages. They're not skilled in the healing arts, or turning undead. They're the wit of the party because they have utility skills the party needs, but does not have commonly including theft, lockpicking, sneaking, precision attacks, and detecting or setting traps

 

That's the point of specialists. They're rogues. They're not selected for their raw combat prowess, support ability, or propensity for summonning elemental horrors or whatever. They exist to have and use specialized utility skillsets that can give their party a leg up in a more indirect or subversive manner.

 

In a classless system like DF, there is no room for rogues, so it would have been silly to include such mechanics. It makes more effective sense in a system that expects everyone to be the same exact character that they all have the same exact detection and stealthing capability. it would have been broken to add a hard stealth because everyone would have it which would mean everyone would need the counterskill rendering the whole thing null and void.

Edited by PopeUrban

LMAO my website is broken please click this to apply to Flames of Exile (maybe, if that's not busted too)

On 5/11/2015 at 1:48 PM, CAWCAWCAW said:

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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