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Dodge doesn't dodge


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This short clip captures a major flaw in the Crowfall combat system. The animations are lying to the player. They indicate that a skill can be dodged, but it can't - not even if you dodge away at the limits of human reaction time.

The champion ult is a big slow "jump up and slam down" skill. Any reasonable player would expect the damage to not hit if the player dodges out of the slam portion.. but it doesn't work like that. Once the skill is activated, you're going to take damage if you were in range at the start, regardless of whether the slam actually connects. So now the player has wasted a dodge and time attempting to avoid a skill that couldn't be avoided.

A more honest animation of the same duration (if the champ ult is really not supposed to be dodgeable) would be a very fast action part followed by a long recovery. If it looked like that, the opponent would at least understand that they've already been hit by it and wouldn't waste the dodge trying to avoid it.

A better engine would actually calculate hits properly and be able to determine that the player moved ~15m away in the time that the skill was animating and not register the final hit.

A band-aid solution might be invulnerable dodges.

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No iframes, locked on damage, damage through lag... there is some slight need to optimize the combat. At least "just flush all the AOE you have at the blob" does work, that means that 90% of the people will be happy with how the system is at the moment ;)

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7 hours ago, nihilsupernum said:

...Once the skill is activated, you're going to take damage if you were in range at the start, regardless of whether the slam actually connects...

I don't think this is actually true. I have dodged Alpha Ults with Disengage/Engage on the Assassin. The damage is on the slam. I know that is not what it looks like on your screen, but that is netcode/latency/lag. I also know this observation doesn't make it a better experience for you and I wish the twitch gameplay the game has was rewarded better.

So yeah, it is possible to dodge that Ult, but it is not consistent and therefore feels real bad.

Edited by Stasy
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1 hour ago, Stasy said:

I don't think this is actually true. I have dodged Alpha Ults with Disengage/Engage on the Assassin. The damage is on the slam. I know that is not what it looks like on your screen, but that is netcode/latency/lag. I also know this observation doesn't make it a better experience for you and I wish the twitch gameplay the game has was rewarded better.

So yeah, it is possible to dodge that Ult, but it is not consistent and therefore feels real bad.

I've tested this extensively. It is not possible (for me anyway) to dodge in reaction to the ult animation. I *can* dodge it if I assume they're going to ult out of my CC (because of course they are. they can ult like 4 times in a row) but this feels bad because I'm pre-committing to a dodge before they even use the skill. If they're good, they'll see me dodge away and not use their ult. Now they have the advantage because I've wasted CC and a dodge (or disengage) for nothing.

Note, by the way that in that clip, I'm playing on the US-West server, which is in Oregon as far as I know. I have 30ms ping to it - very good latency by MMO standards.

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6 minutes ago, nihilsupernum said:

I've tested this extensively. It is not possible (for me anyway) to dodge in reaction to the ult animation. I *can* dodge it if I assume they're going to ult out of my CC (because of course they are. they can ult like 4 times in a row) but this feels bad because I'm pre-committing to a dodge before they even use the skill. If they're good, they'll see me dodge away and not use their ult. Now they have the advantage because I've wasted CC and a dodge (or disengage) for nothing.

Note, by the way that in that clip, I'm playing on the US-West server, which is in Oregon as far as I know. I have 30ms ping to it - very good latency by MMO standards.

To be fair, I can't recall ever dodging the ult with Dodge.  I only remember one single fight with my Blackguard against an Alpha. There I repetitively used Disengage/Engage to avoid his Ult.

Have you tested this with scrims in an EK? If you had a video showing repeatedly how the interaction fails to work with various players, it would be more convincing to me that this was an issue that wasn't specific to your rig/connection.

Edited by Stasy
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1 minute ago, Stasy said:

To be fair, I can't recall ever dodging the ult with Dodge.  I only remember one single fight with my Blackguard against an Alpha. There I repetitively used Disengage/Engage to avoid his Ult.

Have you tested this with scrims in an EK? If you had a video showing repeatedly how the interaction fails to work with various players, it would be more convincing to me that this was an issue that wasn't specific to your rig/connection.

This one is from beta - ignore the question about the pull (this was after they changed Knight ult). See me Engage away THEN dodge and STILL get hit by the slam.

Also see this next one at about 55s in. Again, video was demonstrating something else so ignore the first bit, but there are 2 or 3 examples of dodge not working at the end.

 

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Failing to dodge a different skill. Admittedly this one is a little closer than some of the other examples, but even still, there's a lot of space and I still get hit.

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I won't be able to play until next Thursday, but I promise to record some vids of my experience with dodging and disengaging. It may turn out to be exactly like your experience, but at least we will be able to get more info to determine if it is possible to dodge the ult without guessing it is coming.

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This.

Dodge should have iframes because we already know pysical projectiles are too costly to use purely positional dodges properly in large fights, which is why pretty much everything that was originally a dodgeable projectile was changed to a targeted attack with a delay in damage based on distance. Remember how the servers basically fell over when arrows and knight ult and a bunch of other stuff was trying to simulate actual physics on the server in even a modestly sized fight? Remember how bad melee felt when it was like 4m range?

Lag and network/server performance is always going to require some creative performance focused engineering when you're trying to build a game that fits as many people as possible on a map. Putting iframes on the dodge is the only way to make the dodge work as a dodge while still keeping the combat performance where it is and working to improve it. If it makes short dodges too powerful in relation to long ones, you can just rebalance the cooldowns on dodges.

Edited by PopeUrban

LMAO my website is broken please click this to apply to Flames of Exile (maybe, if that's not busted too)

On 5/11/2015 at 1:48 PM, CAWCAWCAW said:

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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Hit response/feedback is overall in a bad spot imo.  Needs audio improvements to make it sound like things are impacting when they are supposed to be (i.e., when abilities land).  There's also a general delay to the way combat feels.  It feels like I'm selecting abilities to queue up and everything is happening half a second or more after it should feel like it is.  This happens even with a low ping, so it does not appear to be just a laggy server.  The response from when you hit the buttons to when things are happening on screen feels off and there is a lack of audio effects that convey impactful and responsive combat noises.

 

Edit: I also remember they used to require more twitch/aiming to land things.  Now, it seems everything is 180° or less of an aiming cone that will guaranteed hit whatever you last pointed at if they're still within the cone.  I think they made it waaaaay easier to start landing hits.  I'm guessing it's because the lag/latency/combat jankiness was so bad that people were unable to land anything, so they had to make it feel like you could land things to prevent just logging out in frustration. 

It's like a ploy they used to make you think you're landing abilities skillfully to avoid people quitting due to bad performance lol.

Edited by Mourne
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4 hours ago, Mourne said:

Hit response/feedback is overall in a bad spot imo.  Needs audio improvements to make it sound like things are impacting when they are supposed to be (i.e., when abilities land).  There's also a general delay to the way combat feels.  It feels like I'm selecting abilities to queue up and everything is happening half a second or more after it should feel like it is.  This happens even with a low ping, so it does not appear to be just a laggy server.  The response from when you hit the buttons to when things are happening on screen feels off and there is a lack of audio effects that convey impactful and responsive combat noises.

 

Edit: I also remember they used to require more twitch/aiming to land things.  Now, it seems everything is 180° or less of an aiming cone that will guaranteed hit whatever you last pointed at if they're still within the cone.  I think they made it waaaaay easier to start landing hits.  I'm guessing it's because the lag/latency/combat jankiness was so bad that people were unable to land anything, so they had to make it feel like you could land things to prevent just logging out in frustration. 

It's like a ploy they used to make you think you're landing abilities skillfully to avoid people quitting due to bad performance lol.

I think this is a real technical limitation on their back end. They gave abilities / aiming a wide birth to compensate for the desync between client and server. Like in that video I posted earlier in the thread, you don't even need to be facing the target to hit them. This also means pin point targeting really isn't a thing.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/16/2021 at 11:54 PM, Helix said:

I think this is a real technical limitation on their back end.

I think it's more so a consequence of their decision to calculate or verify basically everything server side, which results in what feels like "lag" to people more accustomed to any faster paced combat system where at least some things are trusted to the client (for better or worse).

Hi, I'm moneda.

 

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Ok I'm glad I'm not going insane, because even getting out of range before the champ ult activates you can still get hit by it, and it's happened multiple times from multiple players and during fights.... why even have a dodge mechanic if you'll still get hit by abilities that should be out of range?

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On 7/25/2021 at 10:47 PM, Peppercats said:

Ok I'm glad I'm not going insane, because even getting out of range before the champ ult activates you can still get hit by it, and it's happened multiple times from multiple players and during fights.... why even have a dodge mechanic if you'll still get hit by abilities that should be out of range?

The dodge mechanic is basically a mobility mechanic masquerading as an avoidance tool. It only helps you avoid things if you get out of range *before* the opponent uses them. You need to predict in advance: My opponent is going to use X skill, so I should get out of range now before they do it.

If you see them use the skill, it's almost always too late even though the animations are screaming at you to dodge.

This feels really bad and also creates bad habits if they do ever manage to fix the engine. All these players will have conditioned themselves *not* to dodge things because that's actually the best play right now. Sit there, eat the damage, and hope your build beats their build if you both point at each other and press all your buttons.

Currently, the only way to interact with opposing players is near-telepathic prediction skills, blocks (also predictive), and ults (not fairly distributed. some classes can ult every 10s, others only get 1 per fight).

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