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Add more risk for aggressors in PvP


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I've played a lot of PvP games in the past like Darkfall, Mortal Online, OSRS DMM, Conan Exiles, AO, Aria, etc. And I think one of my biggest gripes with this game is the complete lack of consequence for attacking other players. Which in turn makes PvP a constant annoyance instead of an exciting encounter. For example in OSRS DMM if you attack someone you're flagged for 5-30 minutes in which you can't go to a town, and anyone can kill you, and if you die while flagged you lose all your bank, items, xp, etc. Now that's a bit too harsh for this game. But take Mortal Online where if you attack someone you get flagged a criminal and guards will attack you in safe zones, anyone can kill you, if you kill too many you get low rep and can't enter cities, etc. Or Albion Online where in red zones you lose rep and need to flag to PvP. Now the benefit to that is you can actually go outside and there aren't tons of zergs, and people attacking you every two seconds. Why? Well dying has harsh consequences. Right now in CF if you kill someone who attacks you, you usually get nothing because they don't carry loot with them because they're not stupid

 

How to fix this?

Well, I doubt CF could really support full-loot pvp, but a few thoughts. If you attack someone then for example you lose double your gear durability on death, or you lose gold from your bank, like 500 gold per death, or you lose some sort of rep points, and rep point system is added that gives benefits to high rep players. Literally like something, anything at all to curve it. Because right now there's 0 risk at all for pvpers, Idk how anyone could even call this a hardcore pvp game at this point. Battle Royales like Vigor have more risk to them, since you lose your items. This is an important aspect of PvP mmos really missing in this game, because why? Well the game is supposed to be social, it's an mmo, but you can't be social when literally everyone is going to attack you on sight. In most pvp games you never know who is going to attack you, in this game you see someone and it's like 'Awh poorly made dergs here we go again' - again you get nothing from winning fights, and have everything to lose

 

Additional notes on how to stop zerging

It's not mega hard to stop zerging honestly in games

  • Increase AOE damage cap ( guessing this is some performance issue sadly though)
  • Add friendly fire, makes it way harder to zerg
  • Collision helps a lot, but probably not going to happen in this game
  • Increase view field so you can actually see players 50ft infront of you
  • Add map warnings where zergs are located
  • And lastly again adding harsher consequences for being an aggressor

 

I know a lot of you will go "Well, it's a pvp game dummy". And yes it is, but right now it plays more like a Battle Royale than a PvP MMO that's suppose to be like an mmo, but with pvp elements in it, and a social aspect. Having a Battle Royale -esk map and kill on sight environment kills the social aspect of it outside of grouping with the boys to roll over people, because you can't make new friends out in the world (Kill on sight) and there's no way to even chat with them if you could

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23 minutes ago, ArcaneConsular said:

Right now in CF if you kill someone who attacks you, you usually get nothing because they don't carry loot with them because they're not stupid

Puzzle Pirates had a solution. You could only gain as much as you are carrying. So if you sailed up on me and you have no loot in your hold, you get nothing from me if you win. Thinking of it as putting a wager on the battle. I show up to attack you with 5k in my hold. You have 15k in your hold. Whoever wins, gets 5k. Now, how to do that without instanced battle or matched up teams.... fok if I know *shrug* but there has to be a similar solution that can be created for open world games so that the aggressor is risking something... anything. 

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ACE did try out equipped gear drop for a little bit. The crafting process and game loop is a fair amount of investment, so it would probably mess with the game loop in ways that it does support well, which is why they turned it back off.

I do agree with the intent of your point, but I would counter slightly to say that people who go out to just fight people as opposed to some other task, do risk a couple things -

1. They risk their time being unproductive, and 2, to expand upon that, they risk at least being less productive than say a group farming gold or chopping trees - IF - they come away with no loot during their ganking spree.

If you look at it from that point of view, that's actually a big deal. 

Now, if you are running around farming solo, yeah you will probably be ganked a lot and it might feel like the risk is all on you. Well, yes, that is true. If however you farm in a group, you are much less likely to be killed solo, or lose your farmed materials or gold. The lone assassin sits there in stealth waiting for 20 minutes hoping somebody goes afk and gets left behind. The assassin is doing very little to be productive in that scenario, meanwhile the farming group is making bank.

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44 minutes ago, ArcaneConsular said:

It's not mega hard to stop zerging honestly in games

  • Increase AOE damage cap ( guessing this is some performance issue sadly though)
  • Add friendly fire, makes it way harder to zerg
  • Collision helps a lot, but probably not going to happen in this game
  • Increase view field so you can actually see players 50ft infront of you
  • Add map warnings where zergs are located
  • And lastly again adding harsher consequences for being an aggressor

The AOE damage cap would have no effect on the zerg. It would just be more players with the ability to hit all targets = in the zerg's favor.

Friendly fire was something discussed earlier in the game's development but it just wasn't going to be fun. Again, even if you're in a small group, you don't benefit by being spread out either.

Collision would help but was removed along with several other physics mechanics that were previously in game. I don't know the exact reasoning for its removal, but it probably just wasn't fun. I think body collision would keep larger groups from concentrating in a blob, which could result in more weak points forming within larger groups but the cost to enforce such collision might also place a tax on performance that no one wants to see right now.

FoV is a stat mechanic, so if you want to identify things from further out, you need to invest in things that provide you with far sight.

Map warnings for a zerg not on a PoI would just make large-scale battles too predictable by exposing their movements, which would hurt teams forming up for ambushes, etc. I'd say not the way to go for reducing the supremacy of zergs.

Consequences for being an aggressor already exist. If you are out looking for harvesters, the only ones you have a shot against are those that are weaker, solo, and don't have mobility and escape powers. This means you are not keeping up with guilds that are outperforming gankers through group harvesting.


More immediately, I think we could address the alliance size or alter the way alliances get counted or prioritized for accessing a zone, at least in light of the current zone caps. I am sure the team could get more creative and leverage the tools they have to similarly limit concentrations of players attempting to monopolize a zone. We do have to acknowledge though that the ideal siege team is going to want to be as big as it can be and there isn't much that will dissuade that, and in the spirit of the game we should want to maintain as much of the open-world focus that this game has.

Edited by Lightsig
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Literally all that happens from PvP right now is you both annoy each other by damaging each others gear. Add Rep, Add Honor, Add PvP Tokens, full loot pvp, a lot of routes they could go. Like hey turn in your PvP tokens for gear. But without the risk or the reward it really only serves as a petty way to prevent other people from playing the game and farming and improving their character

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Just now, ArcaneConsular said:

Literally all that happens from PvP right now is you both annoy each other by damaging each others gear. Add Rep, Add Honor, Add PvP Tokens, full loot pvp, a lot of routes they could go. Like hey turn in your PvP tokens for gear. But without the risk or the reward it really only serves as a petty way to prevent other people from playing the game and farming and improving their character

 

If  your point of view is that of a bunch of individuals running around, then yes, I would agree with that assessment.

When groups and large guilds are concerned, that is not the case.

It's not clear to me what your frame of reference is, but I can assure you that for the large guilds, antagonizing the farmers of the other guilds serves a very real purpose and also provides useful input into the guild's progression.

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Posted (edited)

My point is that I'd like to be able to get on by myself for 30 minutes and farm a bit each day without having to organize with my alliance who is usually never on or responsive. So I go to the portal, load for five minutes, run for ten minutes to get to a farm spot, spend 5 minutes farming until a group of players sneak attack me while I'm fighting a monster. Every time. Because there's no incentive to not kill people. Most PvP games I've played you can farm alongside others, even hardcore full loot ones. Why? Well first of all there's more places to farm, and the maps are bigger, and there's more to do, but a big reason is because there's no punishment at all for attacking players, so if someone sees you they are going to try and kill you. It's just very annoying after awhile. Then I have to fly back, reload, run back, etc. In games like DMM and Mortal, AO red zones, you can usually pass by players and farm together, talk to them, etc, because they risk of trying to kill someone who gives you nothing isn't worth it. Like I said the risk reward structure is just unbalanced. I get some players want to just roam around and kill people, but If I wanted to only play the game to roam around and fight I'd rather just play a Battle Royale game, I actually want to progress, but the way the game is set up right now it makes it very hard. I've tried grouping up many times too, but usually just get rolled over by a bigger group and then everyone gets demotivated and gets off. At most it should be like 50% pvp 50% farming. But the game is like 90% PvP, which again, some people might like a lot, but personally I like when PvP is rare and exciting, and exists to add danger and risk to otherwise boring, afkable tasks like cutting trees

Edited by ArcaneConsular
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@ArcaneConsular
The ease of maintaining this type of routine all depends on the support available to you and the campaign type you're playing in, as well as your willingness to eat a loss in productivity in order to reduce your risk of losing your inventory.

  • You can farm in GR and you don't lose any of your items.
  • You can farm in dregs and you can lose all of your items, or you can maintain some of them with the right disciplines.

So do you go for the GR resources, where the node ranks are lower but you don't lose any of your personal haul or a higher risk zone where you could, at best, only lose half of your haul?

This is before you take into account that you could be in a group knocking out motherlodes. You could be playing an anti-stealth class to reduce the disruption of stealth ganks. You could be taking stock of every area you go to, what guilds are there, and drawing out the optimal route for the resources you want to gather to get the best use of your time with the least risk. The game is open PvP, and if you don't want to be the victim of it, try joining a guild that has some presence in the campaign. At the very least, you won't be getting ganked by that group of players, and you will be insulated in the areas your guild is present in.

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Posted (edited)

I don't really want to play in the super weenie hut juniors server, I just want more farming spots or more consequences for people who attack you. Like yes to PvP, but no to PvP every three minutes. And that's literally been my experience the last two weeks. Go to farming spot. Kill two mobs. Have the boys jump out of literally nowhere and kill me

Edited by ArcaneConsular
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2 hours ago, ArcaneConsular said:

is the complete lack of consequence for attacking other players.

The consequence is that you kill them (or you escape like me and give them no satisfaction of a glorious kill).

Edited by BlackfeatherCo

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I mean I get it, but I just want to be able to actually play the game without getting attacked every two minutes

31 minutes ago, BlackfeatherCo said:

The consequence is that you kill them (or you escape like me and give them no satisfaction of a glorious kill).

 

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10 minutes ago, ArcaneConsular said:

I mean I get it, but I just want to be able to actually play the game without getting attacked every two minutes

 

do be in a place where you are going to get rolled every 2 minutes.

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26 minutes ago, ArcaneConsular said:

I mean I get it, but I just want to be able to actually play the game without getting attacked every two minutes

 

This game is designed to facilitate, ..hell, encourage spontaneous attacks like that. Everything in it is designed to promote fights over resources. You want there to be fewer fights? 

If you just want to farm in peace PvE style while you zone out for an hour or so, I'm sure there's a Korean grinder MMO that would suit you.

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57 minutes ago, nihilsupernum said:

This game is designed to facilitate, ..hell, encourage spontaneous attacks like that. Everything in it is designed to promote fights over resources. You want there to be fewer fights? 

If you just want to farm in peace PvE style while you zone out for an hour or so, I'm sure there's a Korean grinder MMO that would suit you.

There is a way to farm without PvP in dregs, all you need is to get enough farmers to zone cap. 😈

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, nihilsupernum said:

This game is designed to facilitate, ..hell, encourage spontaneous attacks like that. Everything in it is designed to promote fights over resources. You want there to be fewer fights? 

If you just want to farm in peace PvE style while you zone out for an hour or so, I'm sure there's a Korean grinder MMO that would suit you.

 

Like I've said before if I wanted to play a Battle Royale where I'm fighting 24/7 I'd play a Battle Royale. I'm not sure why people act like I am a carebear for saying this. This is probably the most 'carebear' pvp mmo i've ever played being that you only lose your inventory on death and some gear durability. But yeah right now I think that game is just a battle simulator. An MMO shouldn't just be a constant battle simulator. It's like calling Vigor a sandbox mmorpg pvp game. Because both games work the same right now. You have a lobby, a zone you can portal into to grab loot where if you die you lose your items, and if you get out you keep the items, and a crafting system. Except Vigor doesn't call itself a sandbox hardcore pvp mmorpg, it calls itself a battle royale. EDIT: You can also upgrade your 'eternal kingdom' in Vigor too

Edited by ArcaneConsular
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55 minutes ago, ArcaneConsular said:

I'm not sure why people act like I am a carebear for saying this.

PvP 24/7 is literally what the core feature of the game is. I'm not sure how you don't know this.

Edited by BlackfeatherCo

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8 hours ago, DocHollidaze said:

1. They risk their time being unproductive, and 2, to expand upon that, they risk at least being less productive than say a group farming gold or chopping trees - IF - they come away with no loot during their ganking spree.

If you look at it from that point of view, that's actually a big deal. 

 

This ^

I'm one of the more prolific gankers in this game and it doesn't even come close to being as profitable as other gameplay is. Even when you get the big ganks where someone drops a ton of stuff (which is rare) usually there's a bunch of stuff you don't want or can't use.

I always joke about how "I'm the victim" after ganking someone who's got a bunch of unique items that won't fit nicely into my bank that I can't use. 

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