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Gankers risk nothing - A broken aspect to this game


Corky
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As the title says: gankers risk nothing in this game, and I feel its a problem.  Gatherers and gold/gear farmers risk their inventory to introduce resources into the game -- gankers introduce nothing.

Yes, I harvest and pve in groups.  But I also play solo during off-hours when guildies are scarce.  I have a good amount of time to play this game, but if there is such an extreme disincentive for me to play solo in Dregs, then what should I do: farm in Lunarium & Skypoint?  Is that the incentive we want?

I don't have a perfect solution, but I'm open to ideas and presenting them to the devs. Introducing a 20% chance of weapon/armor drop on those who initiate PvP is an example of something that could work.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Corky
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8 minutes ago, Corky said:

solo in Dregs

Part of the social contract of playing in the Dregs is PvP risk, that risk allows the potential reward of higher quality materials. I think this is a non-issue in a PvP game. Is ganking cowardly? Sure, they are cowards, but gathering mats solo in the Dregs is foolish/risky and exactly the sort of gameplay open world PvP "punishes." Thankfully, you can play an Assassin or a Guineacean and have a chance of getting out of the battle and back to safety!

 

 

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Gankers risk their time.

Ganking is often a low value-per-hour effort. Most people bank up every 15 minutes or so, so you can easily spend an hour poking around to find a good kill and end up with no more than you could have gotten yourself in 15 minutes. So you basically just wasted 45 minutes in pure profits-per-hour thinking. And realistically a lot of ganks are against targets that have nothing more than bandage or two on them because it turns out they just came back from the bank or whatever. The odd occasion of killing someone and finding 20k gold on them or hundreds of ore is by far the exception.

Maybe some more famous gankers can counter that statement but it's been my experience. The biggest hauls I ever get actually come from counter-ganking: killing the guy who just got done killing and looting a few other people but hadn't stopped to bank yet.

Though I do sometimes wonder about the Asheron's Call system which, if I recall correctly, was that you always dropped your most valuable item, defined by vendor dollar value, equipped or not. People would very carefully select a high value "junk" item to carry with them basically so they wouldn't end up dropping something they needed, like their gear.

That might actually be a harsher system then we have right now though, because odds are if you're out there banging on nodes, the highest value item you have on you is going to end up being something like your belt.

Should probably just be happy the current penalty is so light.

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It would be ok if you could only loot the same value you brought to the fight. If you gank 5 vs 1 it would be 20 % of your average value. 

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1 hour ago, Slamz said:

Gankers risk their time.

Ganking is often a low value-per-hour effort. Most people bank up every 15 minutes or so, so you can easily spend an hour poking around to find a good kill and end up with no more than you could have gotten yourself in 15 minutes. So you basically just wasted 45 minutes in pure profits-per-hour thinking. And realistically a lot of ganks are against targets that have nothing more than bandage or two on them because it turns out they just came back from the bank or whatever. The odd occasion of killing someone and finding 20k gold on them or hundreds of ore is by far the exception.

 



I'm dead inside I hate when people like this say PvP risk their time

Gankers only refers to stealthers with high burst kits and they aren't risking their time, the kit is so successful at finishing off the kill no one changes off it. BACKSTAB CRITICAL DECIMATE CRITICAL 1 sec damage and lick off the last few hundred hps and then say in general GF after i won in the combat log in 2 seconds i'm really good at this game QQ

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There are balance issues right now, it's too easy to gank and too hard to get away from a ganker. There needs to be more counter play for this. Especially as a harvester you will never be able to duel a ganker and there aren't really enough tools in the game to let you escape. Some classes get good escapes but  they are also vulnerable to being one shot by an assassin or alternatively other  harvesters can stealth away but are basically a free kill for anti stealthers. You can never cover both of these and since you cannot duel you are rolling the dice for every engagement.

There should be something tied to harvester pips that can aid in escape while you are actively harvesting, maybe tied to the buffs you get when harvesting. This would at least make it so you to be ganked between harvests.

Edited by Fizbun
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If you're being attacked by solo gankers, there is solo counterplay available. Some classes are very hard to gank.

If you're being attacked by a team of gankers, then the counterplay is necessarily going to be your own team. Or just bank a lot more often. As you say, a ranger-assassin combo is going to be hard to deal with. You basically need your own lookout at that point. But I think that's a reasonable reality. Solo gathering is risky. Gathering with a dedicated ranger buddy who does nothing except keep a lookout adds a large margin of safety.

Personally I enjoy counter-ganking, especially in FvF. I have a Brigand I made just for this. He's okay at fighting assassins 1 on 1 but he's a lot better at just revealing them, dealing some damage and getting them killed by other angry nearby players. If you see me hanging around you in the world, it's because I have voted you "most likely to be ganked" and a perfect person to keep on eye on for a bit. In a perfect world, gatherers could actually pay someone to keep an eye out. I suspect this does not happen because contrary to the vibe of this thread, the risk is really sufficiently low that there's not a whole lot of sense in paying someone to avoid it.

Edited by Slamz
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49 minutes ago, Kundrya said:

It would be ok if you could only loot the same value you brought to the fight. If you gank 5 vs 1 it would be 20 % of your average value. 

Puzzle Pirates does that, and I wish more games would follow suit. You can't gain any more than you risk yourself.

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Just now, Slamz said:

If you're being attacked by solo gankers, there is solo counterplay available. Some classes are very hard to gank.

 

This isn't really true for most harvesters though. You can completely gimp your harvesters and spec for fighting to have a chance of winning a fight that someone else choses at the worst time for you but you are wasting a ton of your own time. Just eat the death and lose half your harvest, it's a way better time investment then attempting to duel someone you will probably lose to.

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Just now, Fizbun said:

You can completely gimp your harvesters and spec for fighting

What's an example of this? Like my miner is a Vanguard-Scout who has the same stats as a recommended youtube video highlighting the Vanguard-Scout as a burst damage ganker. He has like 25 strength but it doesn't really matter with high end picks, disciplines and food (and, for mother lodes, foreman). In fact, he gets more per node because critical chance and critical amount are from dex and int, respectively, which are his prime combat stats. And he also has 2 combat stealths and Tunnel so his escapability is really high.

They did make harvesting stats a bit more complex than is first evident and in the long run I think gear will totally overpower any stat weakness your character has for farming.

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Yes, all my harvesters are Vanguard Scouts. Really cool to have 11 races, 10 classes and 197 specs in this game.

Ohh, forgot the 500 disciplines.

Edited by Kundrya
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55 minutes ago, Fizbun said:

There are balance issues right now, it's too easy to gank and too hard to get away from a ganker. There needs to be more counter play for this.

Play a class that has escapes?  Rats for stealth, sin for stealth, confessor for pseudo stealth, or barb for mobility.  Learn to use terrain/trees to break gap closers and how to run effectively.

55 minutes ago, Fizbun said:

Especially as a harvester you will never be able to duel a ganker and there aren't really enough tools in the game to let you escape.

This is true if you completely ignore combat in a combat zone, although it is your choice to do so and you are suffering the consequences of taking a lopsided approach.

55 minutes ago, Fizbun said:

Some classes get good escapes but  they are also vulnerable to being one shot by an assassin

Don't run around with less than 3k health if you choose to ignore all the warning signs that a sin gank is coming and want to avoid a 1 shot.

55 minutes ago, Fizbun said:

 or alternatively other  harvesters can stealth away but are basically a free kill for anti stealthers. You can never cover both of these and since you cannot duel you are rolling the dice for every engagement.

You can't win every time.  You can however stack the deck in your favor especially by running anti stealth.

55 minutes ago, Fizbun said:

There should be something tied to harvester pips that can aid in escape while you are actively harvesting, maybe tied to the buffs you get when harvesting. This would at least make it so you to be ganked between harvests.

There are plenty of ways to counter attacks as a harvester.  You just need to actually use them.

Edited by calqulon
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3 minutes ago, Kundrya said:

Really cool to have 11 races, 10 classes and 197 specs in this game.

I agree. Especially since they are broken down more by "speciality". The solo ganker is not necessarily the best group fighter who is not necessarily the best raid member who is not necessarily the best gatherer, etc.

Where people go off the rails is in thinking that "balance" means 11 races, 10 classes and 197 specs that are all equally good at all jobs. "Why can't my Vanguard-Scout wade into the middle of a raid and live but a Templar can?! Balance sux." 🙄

But there are specs that can do well at gathering and also do well in at least some small scale combat. Really I think people complaining about ganking should roll a ganker and go try it. They would quickly find out which classes are good at stopping them. Sometimes the best way to find out counters for a thing is to go do that think and see what people counter with.

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11 minutes ago, Slamz said:

Really I think people complaining about ganking should roll a ganker and go try it. They would quickly find out which classes are good at stopping them. Sometimes the best way to find out counters for a thing is to go do that think and see what people counter with.

The problem is that your solution would require effort and/or thought which it is pretty obvious that the complainants don't want to do.

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42 minutes ago, Slamz said:

Really I think people complaining about ganking should roll a ganker and go try it. They would quickly find out which classes are good at stopping them. Sometimes the best way to find out counters for a thing is to go do that think and see what people counter with.

A very good suggestion. They might even find they enjoy that playstyle themselves. 

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1 hour ago, calqulon said:

Play a class that has escapes?  Rats for stealth, sin for stealth, confessor for pseudo stealth, or barb for mobility.  Learn to use terrain/trees to break gap closers and how to run effectively.

This is true if you completely ignore combat in a combat zone, although it is your choice to do so and you are suffering the consequences of taking a lopsided approach.

Don't run around with less than 3k health if you choose to ignore all the warning signs that a sin gank is coming and want to avoid a 1 shot.

You can't win every time.  You can however stack the deck in your favor especially by running anti stealth.

There are plenty of ways to counter attacks as a harvester.  You just need to actually use them.

The guini stealth is useless against most gankers though, brigands are super popular right now and will see you from 30m out while you are stealthed. Good job crawling away, you're dead.

Assassins before the nerf were critting for 6k damage to full plate classes, now they hit for 3-4k and can still hit 6k on the opener pretty easily.

Just because you are only running into gankers in wartribes gear with random builds doesn't mean there aren't players still basically one shotting harvesters. Try getting away from an archer, or better yet try to duel them as the vanguard-scout when you start the fight at half HP.


The VS is going to get wrecked just as easily as the other gankers and you have to depend on resetting the fight which  you won't have a chance to do against an archer  or you got ganked by a stealther and you probably got one shot but if not they can also just disengage and wait for you to start harvesting again.

And also if you are guild has enough gear to gear out harvesters with insane armor and weapons than that's great and congratulations but you are still going to be short on jewelry in a fight.
 

Edited by Fizbun
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3 hours ago, seventhbeacon said:

Part of the social contract of playing in the Dregs is PvP risk, that risk allows the potential reward of higher quality materials. I think this is a non-issue in a PvP game. Is ganking cowardly? Sure, they are cowards, but gathering mats solo in the Dregs is foolish/risky and exactly the sort of gameplay open world PvP "punishes." Thankfully, you can play an Assassin or a Guineacean and have a chance of getting out of the battle and back to safety!

How is ganking any more cowardly than joining a massive guild so you can just zerg people?  This game seems designed to benefit large guilds in every way, dregs gives better rewards, dregs has better resources, large guilds can take over and control hot spots both on dregs and shadows. Every aspect of this game with its current design benefits throwing numbers at everything with the only limitation being 250 people in one area.

 

3 hours ago, Corky said:

As the title says: gankers risk nothing in this game, and I feel its a problem.  Gatherers and gold/gear farmers risk their inventory to introduce resources into the game -- gankers introduce nothing.

Yes, I harvest and pve in groups.  But I also play solo during off-hours when guildies are scarce.  I have a good amount of time to play this game, but if there is such an extreme disincentive for me to play solo in Dregs, then what should I do: farm in Lunarium & Skypoint?  Is that the incentive we want?

I don't have a perfect solution, but I'm open to ideas and presenting them to the devs. Introducing a 20% chance of weapon/armor drop on those who initiate PvP is an example of something that could work.

If it is so much more beneficial for gankers instead of gatherers start ganking and stop gathering. You want weapons to drop but I think when you are running around in purple/legendary gear you will think otherwise when it takes a lot of effort to collect those materials etc and you just RNG lose it to a zerg.

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3 hours ago, Corky said:

As the title says: gankers risk nothing in this game, and I feel its a problem.  Gatherers and gold/gear farmers risk their inventory to introduce resources into the game -- gankers introduce nothing.

Yes, I harvest and pve in groups.  But I also play solo during off-hours when guildies are scarce.  I have a good amount of time to play this game, but if there is such an extreme disincentive for me to play solo in Dregs, then what should I do: farm in Lunarium & Skypoint?  Is that the incentive we want?

I don't have a perfect solution, but I'm open to ideas and presenting them to the devs. Introducing a 20% chance of weapon/armor drop on those who initiate PvP is an example of something that could work.

So you're out there in the world, commiting GENOCIDE on helpless wartribes, just ANNIHILATING trees and rocks left and right, DESECRATING grave sites for body parts, and then some noble hero ganker comes along to put end to your spree of wanton destruction... and you want take even more!

Typical harvester..

 

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