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Poll: Time to Kill in Mid - Late Game Feels Weird.


galvia
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How are you liking TTK currently?  

57 members have voted

  1. 1. I think TTK is...

    • Too slow overall.
      3
    • Too fast overall.
      18
    • I agree that it is weird (too fast sometimes, too slow other times).
      27
    • TTK is great overall right now.
      9


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Hey Crows, resident guy who makes polls here. Curious to see how folks feel about time to kill (TTK) currently in the mid-late game progression we're in. Most quality guilds are fully spun up in crafting or close to finished, and so we've entered into late game damage scaling on most classes. Early into this balance cycle on release, TTK felt generally correct, maybe a little slow in some cases in all scales of combat. There were some bad matchups, and old Chaos Orb did create some crazy AOE spikes but overall fights of all scales felt pretty good in terms of TTK.

Currently in all scales of combat at late game gear it feels like we have a lot of "if you don't react instantly you die in 2s" combos, but if those don't work immediately it's a very grindy time to kill. I'm in favor of single target picks being important to generating kills and momentum in large fights, but maybe they need to be toned down a bit to make it a little slower? Curious to see what folks think of this.

For the record I personally am not calling for any nerfs to known combos (hence why I have not said any of them directly). Single target burst classes being good is really healthy for the game, singularly focused AOE spam metas are awful. What do you folks think?

I expect we will have no consensus here.

Edited by galvia
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3 minutes ago, galvia said:

Currently in all scales of combat at late game gear it feels like we have a lot of "if you don't react instantly you die in 2s" combos, but if those don't work immediately it's a very grindy time to kill. I'm in favor of single target picks being important to generating kills and momentum in large fights, but maybe they need to be toned down a bit to make it a little slower? Curious to see what folks think of this.

Voted "weird" because I don't think it's bad that players *can* die in 2s. The issue I have is that there's nothing they can do (aside from ult) to counter that incoming attack once it has been initiated.

In other words..

 

When ults are the only tool many classes have to defend themselves, and ults are not evenly distributed (some get 1-2 per fight, others get 8+), it feels like there is something missing from combat.

I do agree that at higher crafted gear levels, some of the skills start to feel surprisingly powerful compared to early game. Where once a fight was a bit more of a chess match, now it's a race to land big skills before the opponent lands theirs.

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So much defense is tied to PDM buffs like stakes that if you catch someone outside of those, they explode. But if you stack up in your defensive circles it greatly increases the TTK to where it feels slow/grindy. This is what you're referring to I imagine. 

What likely needs to happen is a bit more defense gets baked into armor (which armor is pretty lacking atm) and removing some of the defense from these activated abilities which have now pretty much become mandatory for every group. 

Another way to go would be to cut down on the amount of armor breaks/penetration there is. In high end gear my confessor has over 20% armor pen fire, plus a 20% elemental break on left click to easily negate 40% armor. Most plate wearers are in the 40-45% armor range so they're basically naked. The only thing that ends up mattering is PDM like stakes, stalwart, block, etc. 

On the flip side, groups who can coordinate the proper buffs/debuffs can win insanely outnumbered fights. So I wouldn't want to see this type of coordination go away completely. 

Edited by blazzen

Blazzen <Lords of Death>

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1 minute ago, blazzen said:

What likely needs to happen is a bit more defense gets baked into armor (which armor is pretty lacking atm) and removing some of the defense from these activated abilities which have now pretty much become mandatory for every group. 

I actually really like this as a response. A full pendulum swing towards armor and away from group buffs is probably bad, but a tiny one is good. Breaks and Pen being reduced a bit will help as well.

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There's like a dozen powers out there that you need to PDM through or you will lose 1/3-1/2 your HP (or die if you get hit by two of them).  Time to kill in this game without PDM buffs (ult or otherwise) is measured in seconds.  It's why when veterans roll up on new players the champions, stormcallers, archers, fanatics, assassin, etc. quite literally delete them.

I've seen this complaint of slow TTK and assume people are just playing non-meta builds.

  @galviawhat match ups have you run into that cause slow TTK? Are you talking about small scale or the large scale AoE volley fests that are the current meta (in which case front line cycles back to recover and get CDs back up).

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Going from the grind meta times (wee one stacking, PDM abilities + 100% prot stake uptime) to now (people globalled at 50m range) has been interesting. I think the main factors are: gear scaling and the defense shredding in the game, and people getting better or at least becoming more aware of the damage potentials in certain comps. Thankfully there are a lot of knobs that can be turned down (many of the caps can be tuned, ability scaling can be tuned, etc), but at the moment it does feel like there are too many situations where the TTK is too low, and it limits skill expression and the impact that coordination has in larger scale play.

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Everyone's armor values are also half of what they were in 5.8-5.10, when the metas were more single target and before all the AoE dmg buffs.

Damage is currently scaling ridiculously high compared to mitigations.

Edited by Angelmar
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2 minutes ago, galvia said:

I actually really like this as a response. A full pendulum swing towards armor and away from group buffs is probably bad, but a tiny one is good. Breaks and Pen being reduced a bit will help as well.

yeah break and pen is a tad insane atm, One of my archer build i run literaly has 43% armor pen in its own kit (Fairie fire 20% armor reduction, Group bug 15% pen weapon 8% pen like i legit hit everyone like there wearing paper

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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Just now, galvia said:

I actually really like this as a response. A full pendulum swing towards armor and away from group buffs is probably bad, but a tiny one is good. Breaks and Pen being reduced a bit will help as well.

I don't like this solution, because it is a flat tuning across the board and doesn't allow player skill to weigh on the impact of a fight.

In that respect, stakes and activated buffs are better than flat armour to everyone. At least there is some choice about when to use the skills.

But even better than that would be some way of seeing the incoming skill, observing that it is a big damage skill, and choosing some fast, active defense to mitigate or avoid it.

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It is easy to cap tons of damage multipliers (220% crit dmg with auto crits/damage bonus etc) and armor mitigations just can't keep up.

Not only is armor super low, but if you do have any armor in most cases it gets penned through aoe faerie fire or fessor elemental breaks.

 

This leads to out of control matchups where you can delete people in 2 seconds unless they ultimate. (Fanatic/Alpha/Cutthroat the biggest offenders with SC in there too)

 

Game needs a massive combat balance where tank classes are tanky due to armor instead of Ult spam or parry.

 

PDM is the only stat that really matters defensively. Just think how many offensive stats you can stack with gear and otherwise and how many you can with armor/defense. The scales are just no balanced at all.

 

At the very least I would like to see armor values increased and possibly move pen to being % based instead of flat.

Edited by Ussiah
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1 minute ago, Angelmar said:

  @galviawhat match ups have you run into that cause slow TTK? Are you talking about small scale or the large scale AoE volley fests that are the current meta (in which case front line cycles back to recover and get CDs back up).

Slow TTK is mostly related to poor execution of the huge burst combos or well executed movement/cycling by targets under focus. It is noticeably slow in AoE volley fests with lots of cycling against massive forces that are evenly matched. Obviously TTK feels totally fine when you out skill or overwhelmingly out number (or both) an opposing force.

Your first point is the "weirdness" I'm describing. Either you have all of your buffs lined up and you can take some heat, or you step just out of position and die way too quickly for the server to keep up with. We have video footage of folks getting server ticked that I'm trying to get a hold of without comms to serve as an example.

 

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25 minutes ago, veeshan said:

yeah break and pen is a tad insane atm, One of my archer build i run literaly has 43% armor pen in its own kit (Fairie fire 20% armor reduction, Group bug 15% pen weapon 8% pen like i legit hit everyone like there wearing paper

Perfectly points out why pen should be % based or toned down.

 

If it was % based could keep the large pen amounts and armor would still be valuable for cloth wearers.

 

One of the other things I would love to see is be able to defensively build anti crit magnitude (basically opposite of crit dmg, not anti crit strike)

Edited by Ussiah
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9 minutes ago, Ussiah said:

Perfectly points out why pen should be % based or toned down.

 

If it was % based could keep the large pen amounts and armor would still be valuable for cloth wearers.

I feel they should shift most of the penetration buffs+hungershard/penetration on crafting into dmg bonus instead for that type doing that way armor should mitigate it better if you have higher armor than lower armor i beleive.
Like you to 20% extra dmg instead of 20% armor reduction
So 100 dmg now = 120 dmg
20% armor would reduce that dmg by 24 dmg so you take 96 dmg
where if it still did 100 dmg and lost 20% armor due to penetration you would take 100dmg

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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I think a very short i-frame on Dodge (slightly longer for single-charge dodges) would be good to help give people some active recourse to react to burst damage.

I also agree that keeping mitigations more reliant on active cooldown/positioning management is better than just going back to everyone having a ton of free no-thought-required resistances from Armour, but I would like to see Plate get a small buff and Mail a smaller buff to mitigations...

I'd also like to see Armour Breaks require more active participation to proc than just "it happens whenever you do damage", moreso in regards to Ranged characters... Wardens, Fanatics, and Stormcallers have it too easy, just automatically armour-breaking everything they hit.

  • I'd like to see the Ranger's Faerie talent only have a chance to proc on single-target damage, so that they have to focus on specific targets they want to soften up. Remove Faerie Flames from Traps as an Armour Break, change it into that Faerie Fire that reduces targets' Anti-Crit stat.
  • I'd like to see Fanatics only proc guaranteed Elemental Break from hitting Nados/Fire Blast/Fire Wave, which are either possible to avoid or require the Fessor to get into a more dangerous spot and make themselves vulnerable to being punished.
  • I'd like to see Stormcallers only have Elemental Break on their Root and Barkskin; remove the Armour Break from their Blight to encourage people to roll some token Earthkeepers/Archdruids.
  • I think tanks having this kind of auto-armour break is fine, like Knights with Spiked Shield, and would like to see some other tank/support specs get Elemental/Organic armour breaks. It's a lot more risky for those specs in large fights to get in and apply those breaks, and their shorter range means they can't apply it raid-wide, just to a specific few people that you then have to co-ordinate with your DPS to blow up.
Edited by Xarrayne
added stormcaller to the list

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Just now, Staff said:

dodge iframes when

A simpler option would be add a buff on dodge for 1 second that give you 50-80% PDM and CAP would literally take like 30 minutes to change all the dodge power tops to do that and now dodging would simulate a glancing blow for example

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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Making Armour Breaks reduce a percentage of target's Armour would be nice, and a lot easier to implement... Either way I would still want Armour Breaking to require more active thought/input and be distributed in a way that encourages teams to fill their rosters with a couple more Support/Tank roles, rather than just minimal frontline then as many DPS as you can pair with healers.

So instead of currently 40% Armour vs 40% Pen => 40Arm - 40Pen = 0% Armour

make it 40% Armour vs 40% Pen => 40Arm - (40% of 40)Pen = 24% Armour

 

However, with this system I think Pen/Breaks percentages might actually need to be buffed, because we can currently still be quite tanky inside PDM stakes and with Ults, not to mention if/when we give Dodges an i-frame...

Edited by Xarrayne
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In general terms, class balance in CF is rather poor. Majority of build/main combinations are non-viable and there exist multiple builds that have self-healing AND burst damage AND mitigation AND debuffs. 

What needs to happen is thorough review of "everything at once" builds before we can speak about TTK.

 

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2 hours ago, nihilsupernum said:

The issue I have is that there's nothing they can do (aside from ult) to counter that incoming attack once it has been initiated.

Yeah this is what makes me go "hmmm". A guildmate plays a knight. That is a slow warm-up class. They're good but so much of what they do is based off of combos and if a cutthroat decides to gank him he just drops like a sack of bricks because there's nothing he can do about it. Can't even theorycraft your way around it. You would think a "knight" with heavy armor and a beefy shield would be one of the harder to gank classes but they are actually one of the easiest and their ultimate just isn't that good either.

It just doesn't seem fair, fun or reasonable that some classes have no answer at all for a gank, ready or not.

Like my Duelist all I gotta do is pop ult, tunnel and if it was a cutthroat then that's most likely the end of that. Their initial attack spoiled, they will just hope to try again later. If it's a Brigand then it's fight on but I have a fair chance now.

Confessor, basically the same. They really get the jump on me and I'm dead but a quick Q can either set me on the path for a serious go at running away or put me in a good position to return fire.

Templar, "bing! Exposed", hold right click, wait to see who I get to womp.

Knight? Eh. You're custarded. You got nothing to deal with a cutthroat and all that armor and that big old shield might as well not be there. I appreciate that different classes can have different strengths and weaknesses but "the inability to do anything about any sort of surprise attack" is a hell of a weakness to give to a class.

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2 minutes ago, Slamz said:

You would think a "knight" with heavy armor and a beefy shield would be one of the harder to gank classes but they are actually one of the easiest and their ultimate just isn't that good either.

The devs have stated that they wanted armor to be a choice and more cosmetic, as such there is little effective difference between leather, mail and plate.

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