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02/27/15 - Distribution/hosting Outside Of North America For Crowfall

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Appreciate the discussion on this topic. I have been sitting on the fence with regards to backing this project, not because it doesn't interest me, but because I am waiting to see what the operating model outside the US will be like.

 

Am Aussie player that has long given up playing games on non-US servers. Aus is too small a market to be commercially viable, that is understood. However, as I am part of a guild that is worldwide with the majority of players in the US/Canada, without some assurance that I will be able to play on a US server indefinitely,  irrespective of any commercial agreement that you may come to with a 3rd party, I will have too wish you all luck and pass on what looks like a great game

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Don't choses prosieben games ... for german setup/eu.

 

Their Support is lackluster and they tent to favor pay-to-win transactions for kids with a lose wallet (parents).

Not the market one wants to go with this game...

 

Ohters hmm ...

Since I no longer live in Germany/Europe I don't know about ProSieben as hoster/publisher, but what about Gamigo? They used to be decent? What about Frogster/Gameforge?

 

And on the claims that no localization is needed for France or German speaking countries: sorry guys, but that is nonsense, there is a vocal handful who are die hard and good in English, but for a large population (by far larger) English is not on the table. That includes people 30+ who are long out of school with family and all and have been served well by localized games. If you aim for older players (who have money but less time) as an audience (I'm not sure exactly yet reading the Crowfall information pages - are you ... sure that is?) then it would - in my eyes - be crazy to not pursue the whole "move east" strategy into these markets and not have the game localized.

Edited by wincel

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This is definitely not my experience from previous games but perhaps it's true for this particular type of game audience.  Wouldn't that imply that the ability "English as a second language" is strongly correlated to the "PvP" or "Crafting" abilities?  :)

 

We're hoping the crowdfunding data gives us some indication of the potential demand and market size in the non-English speaking countries and regions for Crowfall.

 

You are aware that trying to gauge interest from non-English speaking countries through an English-speaking Kickstarter is a bit ... hm ... erm ... ya know? ;) Assume the majority does indeed not speak English and try to make a localized Kickstarter as test, promising you give the money back if there is no localization in that language. How would that sound to you?

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Alpha and Beta test phases are here for a reason. If EU players cannot play the game because of lag problems, then it should be noted and they might actually act on it. But, before the tests, just chill. Hell, I'm in South America and see no problems playing on a NA server. And my internet is probably 10 times worse then yours, in every way possible.

 

Also, how troublesome can it be to have a server hosted in the EU? I mean, they're probably not going to host their NA server themselves, anyway. They probably will (should) hire a company for this. So just wait to actually see if there is REAL need, so early. Hiring someone to host their game in EU mustn't be that difficult.

 

Am I missing something?

Edited by BaSkA

“War is mass murder, conscription is slavery and taxation is robbery.” ― Murray N. Rothbard
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Alpha and Beta test phases are here for a reason. If EU players cannot play the game because of lag problems, then it should be noted and they might actually act on it. But, before the tests, just chill. Hell, I'm in South America and see no problems playing on a NA server. And my internet is probably 10 times worse then yours, in every way possible.

 

Also, how troublesome can it be to have a server hosted in the EU? I mean, they're probably not going to host their NA server themselves, anyway. They probably will (should) hire a company for this. So just wait to actually see if there is REAL need, so early. Hiring someone to host their game in EU mustn't be that difficult.

 

Am I missing something?

 

As for the first point... AFAIK (as far as I know) it depends a great deal on exactly how much information is sent, and how often, between the client and the server?

Perhaps Artcraft can give more info on this?

 

In one game I play - the client receives information from the server at certain intervals - information like the location of objects, their speed and direction too.  like an arrow for example.  Based on that it predicts where the objects will be in the next X microseconds and that is what you see.  If it doesn't get the next packet of info when it expects to - rather than crash or freeze the server just carries on with the information it got last.  The problem is - the client might not get 3 or four updates in a row... then it gets an update that changes things dramatically. 

Maybe that arrow you were watching actually hit a player's shield when that player moved sideways... you client had no way to predict that... and when the new data arrives your client must correct the mistake.... it does and you are left with objects that just appear and disappear from no-where.  Obviously, the more data that is sent and received - the bigger the problem is.  The more player input there is makes it far worse to... since player actions cannot be predicted.

Now maybe Crowfall will require a lot of data in short intervals?  If so, this could be a problem.

 

On the second point there are two issues: Service and law.

The EU has different laws to the US.  I read recently  there were some changes to VAT and Taxes require these be passed back to the country of residence?  So a German company must collect tax from UK customers but pass that back to the UK.

In Australia / NZ we still have metered internet (we pay for our data on a $/Mb basis)... which is another problem again.  Then there are different consumer laws here too.  They are far more stringent if you are dealing with an Australian company rather than a company over the internet....

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Since I no longer live in Germany/Europe I don't know about ProSieben as hoster/publisher, but what about Gamigo? They used to be decent? What about Frogster/Gameforge?

 

And on the claims that no localization is needed for France or German speaking countries: sorry guys, but that is nonsense, there is a vocal handful who are die hard and good in English, but for a large population (by far larger) English is not on the table. That includes people 30+ who are long out of school with family and all and have been served well by localized games. If you aim for older players (who have money but less time) as an audience (I'm not sure exactly yet reading the Crowfall information pages - are you ... sure that is?) then it would - in my eyes - be crazy to not pursue the whole "move east" strategy into these markets and not have the game localized.

Not sure about gamigo, But frogster/gameforge have bad Customer support and make their games P2W, wich is pretty much what the entire European market has become, it would be extreemly hard to find a Customer friendly company here when they only think about their wallets.


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Since I no longer live in Germany/Europe I don't know about ProSieben as hoster/publisher, but what about Gamigo? They used to be decent? What about Frogster/Gameforge?

 

And on the claims that no localization is needed for France or German speaking countries: sorry guys, but that is nonsense, there is a vocal handful who are die hard and good in English, but for a large population (by far larger) English is not on the table. That includes people 30+ who are long out of school with family and all and have been served well by localized games. If you aim for older players (who have money but less time) as an audience (I'm not sure exactly yet reading the Crowfall information pages - are you ... sure that is?) then it would - in my eyes - be crazy to not pursue the whole "move east" strategy into these markets and not have the game localized.

Gamigo is soso.

They atleast have  decent support.

Didn't play anything from them for years ... so that might be old info.

 

Gameforge just got greedier over the years.

Theier portfolio .. is  somehwat "overall pay for win or dont play".

Every game they bought up rights or fully bought it. Became a pay to win heaven ... when it started out as lucrative fun game with a premium function, with no real pay to win (except Ogame, had a building que. Where you could argue if that was pay to win [but now you got instant def building, Ship buildings, research boost and a poorly made socks load of other pay to win stuff. Want to raid me? I just have 100k ressources unguarded. 10 seconds before you hit, i build a massive defesne and pay 20 Euro for that! BGam, your screwed and i got a TF field of epciness to harvest.]).

 

I personally will play on NA servers so or so.

As the EU will take a while, regardless of who sets it up

 

300+ ping?

My ping to NA servers is about 100~200 ms.

I know that is bad for twitch pvp. But i could play firefall just well. No problems with Landmark. And i don't see any problems specially with CF.

People with less ping will have a slight advantage. The trick to ping on firefall was ... to shot where they would be in under 200ms. It worked so well that i got terrible problems, when we went to gamescom to do that tournament.

 

A group of 5 people playing around the world. And we stombed the people present .. till the finale.

Because the pro gamers they got, weren't addjusted to the high ping. And did more well on low ping (+ our main assault .. was a bit greedy and on something .. Always rocketing into them ... gosh how i would have loved to hit him on stage!)

We missed alot, as the ping was only 8 ...

 

To headshot with high ping. Just train.

As long as it isn't a visuable lag. It's okay.

 

 

But still .. if they can manage to get enough funds. Having an EU Server and an NA Server .. with free hopping .. would be so great.

Then one could decide which campagin to play on which server.

And play with all of his friends or guildmates.

 

PS: Not worried about stuff from pledges. Even if EU doesn't get vip for 6 years .. for all the backers. We will most likely get the other stuff. Maybe we will need to buy ourself in again. But that's logical~ For the other stuff. It serves as appetizer. "Hey you want free parcels of taxiness? Just 3 euro per now!". And people go "Hmm, these i got from KS seem so nice. I would love to build that hill of deathbodys... probably worth the money!".

Edited by Greenfox21

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3)  We know most of the major MMO publishing players in the European and Asian markets and can easily contact them (some of them we'll see next week at GDC).  What's disappointing is that there are no positive reports coming from you on any of these companies.  Hopefully people can share something positive.

 

 

The only company I could see might actually have a real shot at making this work for you and us in EU is Funcom. Even though they have only published their own games (Except for Bloodlines, but this was a Swedish developer), they might be willing to publish another developers project with enough interest. They would have the experience, money and probably decency to actually please most EU players. 

 

I'm also wondering if it has to be a current MMO publisher or have you contacted or considered contacting companies, who haven't dealt with MMO's before? Could that be an option? 

 

Its probably not viable to contact major publishers like Ubisoft etc., but maybe a middleground. A company who would be willing to move into the MMO market. 

 

I'm thinking of publishers like CD Projekt, Bohemia Interactive and Deep Silver. 

Edited by Crueltylizer

143R3yh.gif

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I've been reading this topic for a while now, so I'm going to chime in (Of course it will be my own opinion and experience, both from a player and sometimes from a GM/in game helper point of view)

 

When looking at the possible publishing  partners for the European market, I must admit that sad but true,  as a player, the only ones not rising a big "DANGER, P2W destruction inc" signal would be the two already mentioned, Funcom and NCsoft (As well as having decent customer service and network infrastructures).

 

Years ago I would have added Trion to the list but they probably already have way too much to handle with Archeage at the moment anyway.

 

CCP would come to mind too, although like funcom I don't think they already published something from an external developer.

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Appreciate the discussion on this topic. I have been sitting on the fence with regards to backing this project, not because it doesn't interest me, but because I am waiting to see what the operating model outside the US will be like.

 

Am Aussie player that has long given up playing games on non-US servers. Aus is too small a market to be commercially viable, that is understood. However, as I am part of a guild that is worldwide with the majority of players in the US/Canada, without some assurance that I will be able to play on a US server indefinitely, irrespective of any commercial agreement that you may come to with a 3rd party, I will have too wish you all luck and pass on what looks like a great game

We've already given that assurance mate! All early backers get access to our servers, for the life of the product.

Gordon Walton, ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.  [Rules of Conduct]

Follow us on Twitter @CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook

 

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Crowfall is likely to have a relatively small audience, at least initially.  Local servers in any region except NA and EU are probably unsustainable . However, Crowfall already has "instanced" worlds in the form of the campaigns. 

 

Keep the Eternal Kingdoms NA based, but split off campaign worlds onto servers physically hosted in EU and asia, but run by and linked to the main ones in NA.

All accounts can access any campaign they like, but localised ones would give better ping.

 

This should not require a local distributor or publisher, just buying server space in a datacenter.  Some of the cloud computing platforms from MS or google or the like may be able to support this.

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I have to say that I am very disappointed as I assumed that there will be at least one EU ENG server. I have already backed the game and I am not going to withdraw but this is a huge hit. You should at least put an info about it on your KS page.

 

Regarding the problem, the only thing I want is an english server located somewhere in EU. I do not care about localization or customer support in my native language (polish if someone cares). I just want to play the game managed by AC with a physical server located in EU to guarantee a low ping. Playing on US servers will result in a ping somewhere around 200 ms which is way to high to have an enjoyable experience especially if you aim for action combat. Even for the tab targeting combat with long gdc it becomes very annoying at times (FFXIV has servers located in Canada for both US and EU).

 

Is it really not possible to run the whole business from US and just locate a server in EU and omit the whole law thing?

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Maybe you could look at how "HiRez Studios" is doing it.

 

They run all their customer and day to day services in US and as far as I understand, rented servers in an EU datacenter.

They do this for all their games - MMO Global Agenda, FPS Tribes and MOBA Smite.

 

So maybe that could be a solution?

 

I think I remember them starting out as a small company as well back when they where making Global Agenda, which at the time was also a bit of a niece market since MMOFPS games where rarely seen at that time.


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I don't get the big deal ACE, is so hard to open a damn server in Germany? Really?

 

Screw the localization please, english language is more than enought for the whole Europe, this is not Wizard 101 or any other crappy themepark game fullfilled with kiddos that don't speak english.

 

So, open a damn server in Europe, located in Germany, and manage it yourself.

 

DON'T sell the license to a third party publisher, european publishers all sucks, especially gameforce/frogster, they have sh*tty support and what they want is just gain money thanks to a p2w item shop and other locked features only available to vip players. Stay away from these terrible publishers.

 

Tl;dr Wake up and stop this nonsense, english client only for both Us an Europe, no third parties, no localiazion, release the game at the same time with the same language for both continents.

Edited by kdchan

Archduchess Alice

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I suggest the following course of action:

 

1) Adjust current KS info/FAQ to clearly state that its scope is Crofwall core gameplay on NA server. Anyone backing at this point shall have their rewards available on any other regional server they end up on later

2) work on the game and get it to a decent stage, do not let your attention be split with regionalization issues

3) once CF is beta ready start another KS, stating it is for opening an EU located server in ENG language, start another KS for Asia server, ENG language (plus maybe other regions if you see a chance) but make these separate KS campaigns 

4) if any region is successful go ahead with it, by that time you will either have internal funding or will have found a proper publisher

5) start localization KS campaigns, for opening localized servers in Russia, France, Germany, China, wherever (this phase is for the fully released game)

 

This to me sounds transparent enough, everyone will pledge for what they want to and need to and ACE would have clear visibility on budgets/funding available for the various expansion steps. 

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And you'd be milking EU/Asia-Players who want to have the game in their native language thrice. That's not feasable and won't sell, especially since only a fracture of the player base is willing to back the game at all until they could simply buy at least early access-types of releases.

 

And that's the reason why they need to think about teaming up with a publisher or not BEFORE going through any efforts to actually realize their plans.

Edited by Angier

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And you'd be milking EU/Asia-Players who want to have the game in their native language thrice. That's not feasable and won't sell, especially since only a fracture of the player base is willing to back the game at all until they could simply buy at least early access-types of releases.

 

And that's the reason why they need to think about teaming up with a publisher or not BEFORE going through any efforts to actually realize their plans.

 

I thought an EU/Asia player would only pledge when it is their turn for the regional server.  If you pledge right now, you do it for NA only. Your choice.

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Wrong.

 

What we are currently pledging for is the core module and every stretch goal that might be added.

That is something everyone profits of.

 

That the service will be provided in NA just comes with it.

Or have you seen any reward tier that stated "You pledge for the core module but NOT the service in NA."?

 

Getting EU/Asian players to pledge on top of that is... selfish on your part, unlikely for anyone who has pledged until now and won't be likely enough to cover for the costs of getting it to respective region. We are talking about several million dollars as investment for each region.

 

That's also why getting used to the idea that CF will be published by a third party in other regions is the safest bet for now (and confirmed as the current m.o. they are following until things change).

 

So no, additional crowdfunding campaigns just for the purpouse of doing a regional publish and/or a proper localization will likely not succed.

What will be working is adding both - stretch goals for EU (I think Asia is REALLY unlikely to be reached without a publisher) coverage during the KS or later as an additional stretch goal during the "regular" funding campaign is much more likely to succed in comparison to a tiered approach with separate campaigns.

 

EDIT: And it goes against the idea of crowdfunding where everyone comes together to contribute a small part to the whole. You are proposing fracturing this investment power. Not so clever, sorry.

Edited by Angier

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