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Legendary Miner Belt Underwhelming- Not Worth It


Fohmyn
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Hey there,

I just managed to finally reach legendary discipline/legendary belt in mining. This has been my goal for the first couple months of the game in an attempt to maximize motherloding efficiency. Unfortunately, upon reaching legendary belt, we realized the benefits are MUCH less than legendary quarryman belt, to the point of being quite underwhelming.

First, details on what the belt entails:
117 miner runes, 81 additional over the first purple belt you built.  At market rate of 2500g on the live servers, that 81 additional runes has an opportunity cost of 202,500.
Gold: 50k for the coin additive, 45k for the 18 additional belts, 180k for the domination dust. 275k gold to go from purple to legendary.

What are the stats on the legendary belt?
+10% gem drop chance (up from +8% on the epic belt)
+15 mining
+2 plentiful resources: hunger shards

Compare to quarryman, which goes from +8% miners on epic to +20%, there is much less incentive to upgrade miner to legendary belt. It feels very underwhelming for the amount of effort involved. Roughly half a million value of materials and runes for a couple points in mining, 2% gem drop chance, and the coin additive.

I'd like to see the gem drop chance upgraded on the miner legendary belt to be on par with the mineral drop chance from legendary quarryman belt. 

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15 hours ago, Fohmyn said:

Compare to quarryman, which goes from +8% miners on epic to +20%, there is much less incentive to upgrade miner to legendary belt. It feels very underwhelming for the amount of effort involved. Roughly half a million value of materials and runes for a couple points in mining, 2% gem drop chance, and the coin additive.

I'd like to see the gem drop chance upgraded on the miner legendary belt to be on par with the mineral drop chance from legendary quarryman belt. 

I will attempt to respond, from a supply and demand point of view this is good. Minerals main demand comes from player vessel inserts: philosopher stones. Once a vessel is constructed it will not deteriorate or break. Understanding that you have six character slots by default, you will need one vessel of each quality level per character and then not really require any additional vessels until you delete your character and reroll a new one. On the other hand, gems have potentially an infinite demand as they will deteriorate and break.

Look further: secondary to the special resource you collect a main resource. High quality stone has very limited demand, again mostly from philosopher stones and that demand is easily met while farming for minerals. Mining primary resource of high quality ore again has a near unlimited demand as it is used for armor and weapon crafting.

Yes, you do gather minerals vs gems at different rates and they are incremented at a smaller rate of 2% vs 4%, but what is the comparison other than that? Looking at mining by itself without comparing to quarrying, it is useful, there is a large demand for everything you gather and upgrading your belt does provide a benefit. I would argue that you're comparing apples to orange with your argument and that you already have the better gathering profession picked.

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First, to address your issue of supply and demand. If, as you say, the logic is that vessels are a limited use item and jewelry is consumable, it stands to reason that over the lifespan of an average character the player would need many more gems than minerals. If gems were more scarce than the other rare products (minerals, bone, heartwood) the value of jewelry would be very high, and only larger groups or rich players would be able to use it.

I think comparing the value of stone to ore is a false dichotomy. The players who are quarrying know they are obtaining stone, cutting grit, minerals, etc. and therefore consider it a worthwhile use of their time. Perhaps they are feeding construction of an EK, or minerals to a necromancer, or polishing jewels for jewelrycrafting. The various crafting professions are so intertwined that quarrying products are a requisite for many professions. Ore is obviously a main ingredient for the metal armors and weapons, but that doesn't impact the value of quarrying. Perhaps an organized guild might want more people mining ore than quarrying stone.

We are talking about investment into the harvesting disciplines and belts, however, and the argument I'm making is about an increase in efficiency for the investment. I would strongly discourage future players in my guild from investing the resources (as I covered, it's almost half a million in gold and disciplines to go from epic belt to legendary) because the increased efficiency is almost negligent. If you consider the game has an economy where resources can be bought and sold, the gold invested into the belt has an opportunity cost, which is the next best thing that could have been done with the resources. In this case, I could have bought half a million worth of ore, dust, and gems. In order for the best to justify the cost, the marginal benefits from the legendary belt don't even kick in until I've obtained an additional 475,000 gold in resources. Those extra resources coming from, as I said, +5 mining, +2% gem drop chance, +1 plentiful hunger shards, and the beneficial harvest buff.

The reason I made this thread is that the belt will require hundreds of hours of mining to break even, and the legendary mining belt is underwhelming and not worth the investment.

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18 hours ago, Fohmyn said:

We are talking about investment into the harvesting disciplines and belts, however, and the argument I'm making is about an increase in efficiency for the investment. I would strongly discourage future players in my guild from investing the resources (as I covered, it's almost half a million in gold and disciplines to go from epic belt to legendary) because the increased efficiency is almost negligent. 

I would suggest the same is true across the board and that by picking a more in demand gathering profession you are already ahead. One quarryman can meet the non-mineral needs of a 40 man guild. One miner cannot.

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You need a lot more minerals to make a vessel than you need gems to make jewelry. You need one gem to make a piece of jewelry, and a maximum of four gems to fully gem out a character (three if it is not a guinecian or high elf) however you need at minimum 28 minerals to craft a vessel with a 4x philo stone (and if you're making vessels without that philo stone they're disposable disc farming or leveling ones that you already intended to delete ASAP) On top of that several jewelry recipies also require minerals for the alchemist's gem transmutation, though the quality and type of these minerals does not matter.

Players do not stop crafting vessels when they have legendaries (or even blues) on all their characters as unlike many other items vessels can not be duplicated in a factory and do not decay. It is extremely challenging to get a perfect or near-perfect roll on vany crafted item, but on vessels in particular given the high number of individual rolls in its components (5 alchemy rolls of one stat line and seven necromancy rolls of two) and due to their permanent nature and almost imperceptible difference in rarity based power from green to legendary players are highly incentivized to continually roll to minmax them. Unlike decaying jewelry or gear, players generate a high number of vessels or vessel components that they never actually use. A ring slightly worse than the one you have is still useful because the ring is going to break and that new slighly worse ring is better than having no ring when it does. A vessel (or more commonly, an individual component of a vessel) worse than the one you have is literally useless and serves only to encourage you to build another one to try for a better roll.

In actual gameplay the use case for minerals is much, much higher than gems, until every player in your entire guild has an absolutely perfectly rolled legendary vessel, with all legendary additives, and a perfectly rolled legendary philo in every character slot on every account, a feat I have literally never seen one account accomplish even on the TEST server with free resources. Fully minmaxing a crowfall character becomes more wasteful the closer you get due to this RNG, and takes more farming between attempts as you reach higher vessel rarities. Fully minmaxing a character's gear is an unrealistic goal that nobody ever even attempts due to the way gear decays. You'll occasionally get a perfect, but its use is ephemeral, and you're not throwing away or selling all those not-quite-perfect jewelry pieces the way you are with vessels. The base material the motherlodes are comprised of is much, much lower priority, which results and far less "accidental" minerals as most people generate all the stone they will even need as a byproduct of farming minerals and generally don't go on quarrying ML groups for stone. Metal on the other hand is a required component of nearly every piece of equipment in the game and thus results in a lot more "accidental" gems littering banks as people constantly do metal runs specifically for the metal itself.

This is why mineral rates are higher. Simply put, they're higher to encourage people to actually bother hitting the nodes to minmax vessels due to the astronomical cost and difficulty of doing so, and because they're the only item in the game which is both permanent, and randomly experimented on.

Edited by PopeUrban

LMAO my website is broken please click this to apply to Flames of Exile (maybe, if that's not busted too)

On 5/11/2015 at 1:48 PM, CAWCAWCAW said:

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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This beneficial harvest buff has been bigfoot for me.  I don't have a legendary belt (logging for me, not mining) but am very close to affording it.  I've equipped an epic Lookout discipline and crafted tools with a 3% chance to proc this beneficial harvest buff.  I've logged numerous hours and pay attention to see if this buff ever procs, haven't seen it once.  I just want a picture, that's all, of the buffs it provides.  That way, I can make an educated decision on spending the currency on upgrading.  Can anyone provide the exact buffs this provides, not just that it increases crit chance? Thanks

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Currently the best magical coin for legendary harvesting belt is spot weakness. Beneficial harvest chance is giving you RNG on top of RNG effectively making it useless. The only value that comes from it, is if you can destroy multiple nodes quickly, and have access to a large abundancy of those nodes. Unfortunately this is not possible in dregs or shadows. Even at the sun elf camps (ore) which i tested extensively. The beneficial harvest coin needs a change in mechanics and a slight buff. Otherwise slotting this one in your belt is a waste of 50,000 Gold, and a waste of a legendary belt. The only way to get value out of this coin is to farm in Gods reach, and to make sure your crit amount is above 2, close to 3.

 

I love harvesting in this game, but with the current implementation of crit amount and crit chance, and with the degrading economy making materials practically sell for peanuts. It is nigh impossible to truly make it a playstyle. At least not a very profitable one ,when compared to just farming gold via pve mobs.

 

And forcing harvesters who dedicated their time to choose between two magical coins, with zero tooltips/explanations on what they do, is just a slap in the face. Especially when you consider the cost to upgrade that legendary belt, and you have zero option to slot the coins in and out.

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The beneficial harvest buff gives +10% critical chance and +30% movement speed for 30 seconds. It has a chance to proc when you finish a node. There is a stat called beneficial harvest power, that either is explained incorrectly or isn't doing anything. It says it modifies the power of the beneficial harvest, but the 10% granted from the tooltip is all that is added to my crit chance.

3 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

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Supposing everything you said is true about the developers' intent for you to repeatedly reroll legendary vessels to obtain that rare roll, that still doesn't strengthen your point that the players need more minerals than gems. A vessel is a permanent upgrade, while jewelry is a constantly degrading consumable item. If the objective is to run around with maximum stats all the time, you would be having your jeweler craft large numbers of legendary rings and necklaces and not use the suboptimal pieces. Once you obtain the ideal jewelry, you just need to start grinding to obtain it again because it will break in a few hours of gameplay.

None of that addresses the intent of the thread, however, which is to question marginal value of upgrading an epic belt to legendary for mining. The investment is large (ala 475k), and the benefits very small. An extra 5 points of mining is equivalent to a less than 3% increase in efficiency while smacking nodes, and that 2% increase in gem drop chance is functionally a 25% increase in gem drop rate from the epic belt. It is hard to isolate the exact added value from each motherlode you hit, but my intuition is that it will take dozens to hundreds of hours of motherloding ore to break even on the cost of the belt. The quarryman belt (which is the only one I'm familiar with, it could be the same for gravedigging, skinning, logging) does not have the same low value proposition. Upgrading from epic to legendary quarryman belt gives a 150% increase to mineral drop rate versus a 25% increase from the mining belt. Considering that gems are less valuable than minerals (in the current market at least) and the quarryman obtains minerals at a much faster rate, the quarryman belt pays for itself in a fraction of the time.

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On 8/25/2021 at 12:41 PM, Fohmyn said:

Supposing everything you said is true about the developers' intent for you to repeatedly reroll legendary vessels to obtain that rare roll, that still doesn't strengthen your point that the players need more minerals than gems. A vessel is a permanent upgrade, while jewelry is a constantly degrading consumable item. If the objective is to run around with maximum stats all the time, you would be having your jeweler craft large numbers of legendary rings and necklaces and not use the suboptimal pieces. Once you obtain the ideal jewelry, you just need to start grinding to obtain it again because it will break in a few hours of gameplay.

The difference is that there is a practical and intended incentive to do it on vessels and there is not on jewelry, that gems are gained more frequently as a byproduct of metal harvesting rather than the goal of hitting the motherlode, and that the actual requirement of gems per completed item versus minerals, per character, is far, far lower than jewelry, and the fact that some of that jewelry also requires minerals.

Simply put you're not intended to try and eternally minmax jewelry or other decaying gear because they decay. They're designed as efficiency faucets balanced by decay sinks with the occasional very good item. You and everyone else runs around in mostly crafted blues most of the time while occasionally investing in a nice purple or legendary for special occasions. You're intended to minmax vessels because they are not efficiency faucets balanced by sinks but are rather upgrade faucets balanced by crafting skills and luck.

Your question about the marginal value of gems versus minerals is making an apples to oranges comparison, as the rare item drop rate for any of the harvesting jobs has a completely separate context when used in crafting. You can't compare as equivalent the drop rate of hunger shards to the drop rate of gems, neither is the drop rate of minerals to gems. either as all of these items have extremely different contexts, intended rarities, etc. in the crafting systems.

All crafts are not created equal. Jewelry specifically is positioned as a "sometimes food" in the overall gear stat pie. Its expensive in part because of the rarity of gems and in part because of its low durability creating higher demand. It offers minor stat buffs that the game is designed to allow players to comfortably live without. Tools are a "workhorse" that craft for dirt cheap because you go through them all the time and they are absolutely necessary to all other crafts. Vessels are big cost with a shallow stat curve designed for minmaxing, Armor and weapons are generally quite high durability with big stat payoffs, etc. etc.

If your point is that they should be equivalent, I dunno if I agree with that or how you would even gauge "equivalent" when comparing items with such different overall purposes. If your point is simply "there should be a little more oomph on the legendary mining disc" then maybe I can get on board with that idea, though I don't know if putting that oomph in gem drop chance specifically would be the best move to do it.

Edited by PopeUrban

LMAO my website is broken please click this to apply to Flames of Exile (maybe, if that's not busted too)

On 5/11/2015 at 1:48 PM, CAWCAWCAW said:

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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